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Featured LDS If a universal apostasy really happened?

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Daniel Marsh, Oct 26, 2018.

  1. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Ezekiel 18 Good News Translation (GNT)
    Individual Responsibility
    18 The Lord spoke to me 2 of these things 11 that the father never did. He eats sacrifices offered at forbidden shrines and seduces other men's wives. 12 He cheats the poor, he robs, he keeps what a borrower gives him as security. He goes to pagan shrines, worships disgusting idols, 13 and lends money for profit. Will he live? No, he will not. He has done all these disgusting things, and so he will die. He will be to blame for his own death.

    14 “Now suppose this second man has a son. He sees all the sins his father practiced, but does not follow his example. 15 He doesn't worship the idols of the Israelites or eat the sacrifices offered at forbidden shrines. He doesn't seduce another man's wife 16 or oppress anyone or rob anyone. He returns what a borrower gives him as security. He feeds the hungry and gives clothing to the naked. 17 He refuses to do evil and doesn't lend money for profit. He keeps my laws and obeys my commands. He will not die because of his father's sins, but he will certainly live. 18 His father, on the other hand, cheated and robbed and always did evil to everyone. And so he died because of the sins he himself had committed.

    19 “But you ask, ‘Why shouldn't the son suffer because of his father's sins?’ The answer is that the son did what was right and good. He kept my laws and followed them carefully, and so he will certainly live. 20 C)" data-cr="#cen-GNT-23965C" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">It is the one who sins who will die. A son is not to suffer because of his father's sins, nor a father because of the sins of his son. Good people will be rewarded for doing good, and evil people will suffer for the evil they do.

    21 “If someone evil stops sinning and keeps my laws, if he does what is right and good, he will not die; he will certainly live. 22 All his sins will be forgiven, and he will live, because he did what is right. 23 Do you think I enjoy seeing evil people die?” asks the Sovereign Lord. “No, I would rather see them repent and live.

    24 “But if a righteous person stops doing good and starts doing all the evil, disgusting things that evil people do, will he go on living? No! None of the good he did will be remembered. He will die because of his unfaithfulness and his sins.

    25 “But you say, ‘What the Lord does isn't right.’ Listen to me, you Israelites. Do you think my way of doing things isn't right? It is your way that isn't right. 26 When a righteous person stops doing good and starts doing evil and then dies, he dies because of the evil he has done. 27 When someone evil stops sinning and does what is right and good, he saves his life. 28 He realizes what he is doing and stops sinning, so he will certainly not die, but go on living. 29 And you Israelites say, ‘What the Lord does isn't right.’ You think my way isn't right, do you? It is your way that isn't right.

    30 “Now I, the Sovereign Lord, am telling you Israelites that I will judge each of you by what you have done. Turn away from all the evil you are doing, and don't let your sin destroy you. 31 Give up all the evil you have been doing, and get yourselves new minds and hearts. Why do you Israelites want to die? 32 D)" data-cr="#cen-GNT-23977D" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">I do not want anyone to die,” says the Sovereign Lord. “Turn away from your sins and live.”
     
  2. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    The Danites and the Mountain Meadows Massacre comes to mind.


    "To break a cycle of mutual suspicion, recrimination and violence, Brigham Young, who would succeed Smith, made plans to lead the remaining LDS members on an exodus to Utah, which was then part of Mexico—beyond the reach of U.S. law.

    As a recent convert John D. Lee joined a secret church order called the Danites, which was charged with protecting and defending Mormons. When some Missourians opposed to Mormons’ voting started a riot at a Daviess County polling center in 1838, Lee and his fellow Danites stormed into the crowd with clubs flying. “I felt the power of God nerve my arm for the fray,” he later said. Buildings were burned, and Lee later admitted that he had participated in looting."The Aftermath of Mountain Meadows | History | Smithsonian

    Danites Mountain Meadows Massacre - Google Search
     
  3. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Attending a church does NOT make a person a Christian.

    MURDER OF LORI HACKING

    Lori Kay Soares Hacking (December 31, 1976 – July 19, 2004) was a Salt Lake City, Utah, woman who was killed by her husband, Mark Hacking, in 2004. She was reported missing by her husband, and the search earned national attention before her husband confessed to the crime.
    Murder of Lori Hacking - Wikipedia


    DISAPPEARANCE OF SUSAN POWELL

    Susan Cox married Joshua Powell (b. January 20, 1976) at the Portland Oregon Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in April 2001. In 2004 they moved to Utah to get away from Joshua's predatory father Steven Craig Powell who had a sexual obsession with Susan. They resided in West Valley City, a suburb of Salt Lake City in Utah. Joshua had a bachelor's degree in business and worked for a number of different companies over the years.[2] Susan was a cosmetologist in Washington, and worked in banking after the family's relocation to Utah...

    By 2008, Susan was expressing fears and frustrations about her marriage to friends.
    She recorded a video in July 2009 and wrote a secret will that included the statements "I want it documented that there is extreme turmoil in our marriage" and "If I die, it may not be an accident, even if it looks like one."[5]
    Disappearance of Susan Powell - Wikipedia

    In 2012 Powell killed himself and his two young sons. He shut the door and locked it when the social worker brought the boys from their maternal grandparents for a supervised visit. The social worker was not let in.

    Susan's body was never found.


    Doctor who drugged his wife, left her to die in bathtub, found dead at Utah prison

    In the months before he murdered his wife, Martin Joseph MacNeill told family, his church and friends in Pleasant Grove, Utah, that he was dying from cancer. The doctor, a former Mormon bishop with eight children and a law degree, then rearranged his finances and took trips, ostensibly for medical care.

    But he didn’t have cancer. He had a mistress, and a plan to kill his wife.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...d-dead-at-utah-prison/?utm_term=.a25b1226e39a


    MURDER OF YARMILA FALATER
    'Sleepwalker' Guilty Of Murder
    ...From the day he was arrested, Falater never denied killing his wife, Yarmila, never denied stabbing her 44 times that January night in 1997, and never denied drowning her in the family pool, reports CBS News Correspondent Jerry Bowen.
    'Sleepwalker' Guilty Of Murder

    LDS - Were these people excommunicated?
     
  4. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    christians door threats violence recorded - Google Search

    "The biggest concern about this interaction is that after talking with other people who have had run ins with Mormons, this: Why are you persecuting me line is a tactic that they employ to get people to shut up and listen. By enacting it, they don’t have to answer questions and have lucid arguments and that cannot be tolerated. If Mormons what to fall into the pale of orthodox Christianity, they they better be able to prove their position. It is our job to call them on this tactic and in gentle and Christian manner." Christianty | School of Fish

    Ah, I have meet many LDS Missionaries make the false claim that they are being persecuted --- when confronted with the truth of the real Jesus.
     
  5. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    From the google for violence against LDS Missionaries, I found this story,
    "Provo, Utah (CNN)The horror of rape or sexual assault is traumatizing enough for any victim. But for multiple young women at Brigham Young University, they claim they received backlash, instead of support, after reporting sexual violence to the school."Punished after rape report at Brigham Young University - CNN

    Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. (1805 - 1844):

    “We have a company of Danites in these times, to put to right physically that which is not right, and to cleanse the Church of very great evils which hath hitherto existed among us inasmuch as they cannot be put to right by teachings & persuasions.”

    - Joseph Smith diary, Missouri Journal, 1838, March to September, under July 27, 1838; also Dean Jessee, ed., The Papers of Joseph Smith, 1992, v. 2, p. 262 (this quote is crossed out in this book); also in Faulring, An American Prophet's Record, p. 198
     
  6. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    “The first presidency did not seem to have much to do with it at first: they would, however, go into their [Danite] meetings occasionally, and sanction their doings.”

    - John Corrill, A Brief History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, p. 31
    “...it was the imperative duty of the Church to obey the word of Joseph Smith, or the presidency, without question or inquiry, and that if there were any that would not, they should have their throats cut from ear [to] ear.”

    - Sidney Rigdon letter to Orson Hyde, October 21, 1844, in Nauvoo Neighbor, December 4, 1844; see also Quinn, Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, p. 94; online at Link is here.

    “While we were gone Jo. & Rigdon & their band of gadiantons kept up a guard and watched our houses and abused our families and threatened them if they were not gone by morning they would be drove out & threatened our lives if they [the Danites] ever saw us in Far West.”

    - John Whitmer, McKiernan and Launius, The Book of John Whitmer, p. 165

    “My sympathies were drawn toward the women and children, but I would in no degree let them deter me from duty. So while others were pillaging for something to carry away, I was doing my best to protect, as far as possible, the lives and comfort of the [non-Mormon] families who were dependent on getting away upon horseback.... While others were doing the burning and plunder, my mission was of mercy so far as duty would permit. But of course I made enemies at home [among fellow Mormons], and became more known by those who were our avowed enemies. Before noon we had set all [houses and barns] on fire and left upon a circuitous route towards home.”

    - Benjamin Johnson, My Life's Review, 1947, p. 39

    “Some of the [Danite] brethren did things they should not have done, such as appropriating to their own use things that did not belong to them.”

    - James B. Bracken, Sr., statement, in They Knew the Prophet, 1974, p. 79

    “Dear Sister,… I will tell you the reason why we could not leave this blood-stained land, I mean ten or twelve years ago. In the first place, we were a thousand miles from the nearest town East, eight hundred miles from the nearest settlement West, and God only knows how far to any place north and south. On all this vast tract of land no white man dwelt. No civilization was known, none but the red men roamed the dreary solitudes. To travel such a space required considerable food, a good wagon and team, in fact, everything necessary for a three month's pilgrimage. Nor was it safe for a few men to go together, unless they were well-armed. Again, every Bishop knew your business and was always on the lookout. If you started they would send men to drive off your stock, and thus you would be compelled to return. Then if you did not behave and act the hypocrite, the bishop would send the Danites to use you up and send you across lots to that bright brimstone home we read about. Thus you see it was almost impossible to get away.”

    - Aaron DeWitt, letter online at Link is here.; see Abanes, One Nation Under Gods, p. 239

    “I married Jesse Hartly, knowing he was a ‘Gentile' in fact, but he passed for a Mormon, but that made no difference with me, although I was a Mormon, because he was a noble man, and sought only the right. By being my husband, he was brought into closer contact with the members of the Church, and was thus soon enabled to learn many things about us, and about the Heads of the Church, that he did not approve, and of which I was ignorant, although I had been brought up among the Saints; and which, if known among the Gentiles, would have greatly damaged us. I do not understand all he discovered, or all he did; but they found he had written against the Church, and he was cut off, and the Prophet required as an atonement for his sins, that he should lay down his life. That he should be sacrificed in the endowment rooms; where human sacrifices are sometimes made in this way. This I never knew until my husband told me, but it is true. They kill those there who have committed sins too great to be atoned for in any other way. The Prophet says, if they submit to this he can save them; otherwise they are lost. Oh! that is horrible. But my husband refused to be sacrificed, and so set out alone for the United States: thinking there might be at least a hope of success. I told him when he left me, and left his child, that he would be killed, and so he was. William Hickman and another Danite, shot him in the canyons; and I have often since been obliged to cook for this man, when he passed this way, knowing all the while, he had killed my husband. My child soon followed after its father, and I hope to die also; for why should I live? They have brought me here, where I wish to remain, rather than to return to Salt Lake where the murderers of my husband curse the earth, and roll in affluence unpunished.”

    - Miss Bullock of Provo, Utah, quoted by Mary Ettie V. Smith, in Nelson Winch Green, Mormonism: its rise, progress, and present condition…, 1858, 1870 ed., p. 273

    “In the excavations made within the limits of Salt Lake City during the time I have resided there, many human skeletons have been exhumed in various parts of the city…. I have never heard that it was ever the custom to bury the dead promiscuously throughout the city; and as no coffins were ever found in connection with any of these skeletons, it is evident that the death of the persons to whom they once belonged did not result from natural causes, but from the use of criminal means.”

    - R.N. Baskin, Reminiscences of Early Utah, 1914, pp. 154-155

    “… the disposition manifested in J. Smith and S. Rigdon to pillage, rob, plunder, assassinate and murder, was never equaled in my estimation, unless by some desperate Bandit.”

    - Thomas B. Marsh, letter to Brother and Sister Abbot, October 25, 1838, in Joseph Smith Letterbook, v. 2, p. 18, Smith Papers, in RLDS archives, Lee Library and Marriott Library; see also Abanes, One Nation Under Gods, p. 541, footnote 67

    Others:

    “He [Brigham Young] uttered this sentiment with such a wicked working of the lower jaw and lip, and such an almost demon spirit in his whole face, that quite disposed to be incredulous on those matters. I could not help thinking of the Mountain Meadows massacre, of Danites and Avenging Angels, and their reported achievements.”

    - New York Tribune, July 15, 1865

    [There is] “... only [one] known visit of Joseph or Hyrum Smith to Danite meetings... evidence indicates that Rigdon was present on more than one occasion, perhaps several.”

    - Leland H. Gentry, “The Danite Band of 1838,” BYU Studies, v. 14, Summer 1974, p. 443

    “The method chosen by the Latter-day Saints to rid themselves of their dissenting Brethren was unfortunate since it furnished the dissenters with further proof that the Saints were inimical to law and order.”

    - Gentry, “History of the Latter-day Saints In Northern Missouri From 1836 to 1839,” Ph. D. dissertation, Brigham Young University, 1965, p. 171; see also LeSueur, The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri, p. 46

    “There is no question that Latter-day Saint rangers burned buildings at Millport and Gallatin... It is certain that some Danites played the thief, and it is possible, although unproven, that one or two were murderers.”

    - William G. Hartley, BYU professor, My Best For the Kingdom, p. 69, 42

    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
     
  7. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Quotes From Danites


    “The Church [at Far West] organized under captains... They called our organization ‘THE DANITE BAND' [-] I belonged to the 3rd Fifty led by Reynolds Cahoon.”

    - Elder Allen J. Stout journal, Danite, p. 7; see Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, p. 95

    “Punishment by death is the penalty for refusing to obey the orders of the Priesthood. I knew of many men being killed in Nauvoo by the Danites. It was then the rule that all enemies of the Prophet Joseph should be killed, and I knew of many a man who was quietly put out of the way by the orders of Joseph and his apostles while the church was there.”

    - Elder John D. Lee (1812 – 1877), Danite and adopted son of Brigham Young, John D. Lee Diaries

    "I always feel that it is my duty to look to myself, for I am in as much danger of apostatizing as any in the Church. If I ever do get led astray and depart from the principles of the gospel of salvation, it will be because I led myself off from the path; it was not my brethren who led me away, it was my own doing."

    - Elder Hosea Stout (1810 - 1889), Danite, General Conference, 1858; online at Link is here.

    “I shot through the window and thought I had killed him [Boggs], but I had only wounded him; I was damned sorry that I had not killed the son of a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].”

    - Orrin Porter Rockwell, in Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God, Son of Thunder, by Harold Schindler, 1966, p. 80

    “As the Lord had raised up a prophet in these last days like unto Moses, it shall be the duty of this band [Danites] to obey him in all things, and whatever he requires, you shall perform, being ready to give up life and property for the advancement of the cause. When any thing is to be performed no member shall have the privilege of judging whether it would be right or wrong, but shall engage in its accomplishment and trust God for the result.”

    - Danite commander Sampson Avard, in Reed Peck, Reed Peck Manuscript, p. 3

    “If Joseph should tell me to kill [U.S. President Martin] Van Buren... I would immediately start and do my best to assassinate him [and] let the consequences be as they would.”

    - Alexander McRae, in Reed Peck, Reed Peck Manuscript, p. 3

    “He [Joseph A. Young, one of Brigham's sons] hailed me (I being behind) and said his father wanted that man [non-Mormon trader Richard] Yates killed, and that I would know all about it when I got to Jones' camp….
    “Col. Jones and two others, Hosea Stout and another man whose name I do not recollect, came to my camp-fire and asked if Yates was asleep. I told them he was, upon which his brains were knocked out with an ax. He was covered up with his blankets… and a grave dug some three feet deep near the camp by the fire-light, all hands assisting. Flack and Meacham were asleep when the man was killed, but woke up and saw the grave digging. The body was put in and the dirt well packed on it.”

    - William Hickman, Brigham Young's Destroying Angel, 1964, pp. 124-125. Brigham Young suspected Yates of “spying.” This murder is documented (along with many others) by Hickman in R.N. Baskin, Reminiscences of Early Utah, 1914

    “It was one of the hot-beds of fanaticism, and I expect that more men were killed there, in proportion to population, than in any other part of Utah. In that settlement it was certain death to say a word against the authorities, high or low.”

    - William Hickman, Brigham Young's Destroying Angel, 1964, p. 284

    “If you want me to do anything, just let me know it…. If you want this or that, or whatever you may think, I will try. Or if you want my life you can have it without a murmur or a groan, just let me know late or early. I will be there, and there will be no tale left behind… I am on hand.”

    - William Hickman, Letter to Brigham Young, April 25, 1865, in Hope A. Hilton, “Wild Bill” Hickman and the Mormon Frontier, 1988, p. 113

    Mormon Quotes on the Danites
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  8. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    in case I forgot to post this link: ESSAYS – Deception in the Mormon Church

    Mormon Quotes on the Danites


    “There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they would stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world. I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it a strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them.”—Brigham Young, 1856, Journal of Discourses, vol 4, p. 53

    “I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath my bowie knife, and conquer or die. [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.] Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put to the line, and righteousness to the plummet. [Voices, generally, ‘go it, go it.’] If you say it is right, raise your hands. [All hands up.] Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work.”—Brigham Young, 1853, Journal of Discourses, vol 1, p. 83 (Brackets in the original)

    As one can clearly see, none of these statements are taken out of context. Ironically, while McConkie accuses critics of fabricating “false” stories regarding this doctrine, he affirms it as a “true doctrine:”

    “…the true doctrine of blood atonement is simply this.…under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins. Murder, for instance, is one of these sins; hence we find the Lord commanding capital punishment.…President Joseph Fielding Smith has written: ‘Men may commit certain grievous sins…that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ.…for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail.…Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf.” —Mormon Doctrine, pp. 92-93
     
  9. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    http://www.eaec.org/bookstore/changingworld.pdf

    While this may have seemed funny to President Grant, Joseph Smith had a violent temper which could lead to physical violence. His close friend Benjamin F. Johnson made this observation after Smith's death:

    "And yet, although so social and even convivial at times, he would allow no arrogance or undue liberties. Criticisms, even by his associates, were rarely acceptable. Contradictions would arouse in him the lion at once. By no one of his fellows would he be superseded.... one or another of his associates were more than once, for their impudence, helped from the congregation by his foot.... He soundly thrashed his brother William... While with him in such fraternal, social and sometimes convivial moods, we could not then so fully realize the greatness and majesty of his calling." (Letter by Benjamin F. Johnson to Elder George S. Gibbs, 1903, as printed in The Testimony of Joseph Smith's Best Friend, pages 4-5)

    ...

    JS was a violent person, full of hate:

    In the History of the Church for the year 1843, we read of two fights Joseph Smith had in Nauvoo:

    "Josiah Butterfield came to my house and insulted me so outrageously that I kicked him out of the house, across the yard, and into the street." (History of the Church, vol. 5, page 316)

    "Bagby called me a liar, and picked up a stone to throw at me, which so enraged me that I followed him a few steps, and struck him two or three times. Esquire Daniel H. Wells stepped between us and succeeded in separating us.... I rode down to Alderman Whitney... he imposed a fine which I paid, and then returned to the political meeting." (Ibid., page 524)

    On August 13, 1843, Joseph Smith admitted that he had tried to choke Walter Bagby: "I met him, and he gave me some abusive language, taking up a stone to throw at me: I seized him by the throat to choke him off." (Ibid., page 531)

    After he became president of the Mormon Church, Brigham Young commented, "if you had the Prophet Joseph to deal with, you would think that I am quite mild.... He would not bear the usage I have borne, and would appear as though he would tear down all the houses in the city, and tear up trees by the roots, if men conducted to him in the way they have to me." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, pp. 317-318)

    While Mormon writer John J. Stewart claimed that Joseph Smith was "perhaps the most Christ-like man to live upon the earth since Jesus himself," this conclusion is not supported by Joseph Smith's History: "I am not so much a 'Christian' as many suppose I am. When a man undertakes to ride me for a horse, I feel disposed to kick up and throw him off, and ride him." (History of the Church, vol. 5, page 335)

    In addition to choking, kicking people out of houses and churches, knocking them in the head, boxing their ears, and tearing their clothing, the evidence indicates that he threatened people's lives. Dr. Quinn reported the following:

    "In an incident about which Smith's personal diary and official history are completely silent, he was acquitted in June 1837 of conspiring to murder anti-Mormon Grandison Newell. The silence may be due to the fact that two of Smith's supporting witnesses in the case, both apostles, acknowledged that the prophet discussed with them the possibility of killing Newell. Apostle Orson Hyde testified that 'Smith seemed much excited and declared that Newell should be put out of the way, or where the crows could not find him; he said destroying Newell would be justifiable in the sight of God, that it was the will of God, &c.' Hyde tried to be helpful by adding that he had 'never heard Smith use similar language before,'... Apostle Luke S. Johnson acknowledged to the court that Smith had said 'if Newell or any other man should head a mob against him, they ought to be put out of the way, and it would be our duty to do so.' However, Johnson also affirmed: 'I believe Smith to be a tender-hearted, humane man.' Whether or not the court agreed with that assessment, the judge acquitted Smith because there was insufficient evidence to support the charge of conspiracy to commit murder." (The Mormon Hierarchy, pages 91-92)

    One of the biggest problems that confronted Joseph Smith was dissension within the ranks of his own church. Mormon historical records demonstrate that Smith not only felt that he was superior in physical strength to most men, but he also believed he had the inside track with God. He even went so far as to boast that he had been more successful than Jesus Himself in setting up a church:

    "If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them.... I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet." (History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 408-409)

    With an exalted attitude like that it is easy to believe that Joseph Smith would have trouble with many people. As his friend Benjamin F. Johnson pointed out, "Contradictions would arouse in him the lion at once." Instead of handling things in a calm and orderly way, he would often resort to violence, name calling, and slander. This, of course, made many enemies within and without the church.

    This is far different than the way the Mormon leaders operate today. For example, since October, 1993, the church has been purging prominent scholars and feminists who have written things that embarrass the church. The leaders, in fact, have taken an uncompromising stand against those who wish to tell the unvarnished truth about church history and other issues. Many scholars were questioned, and some were either excommunicated or disfellowshiped from the church. The purge has continued, and in December, 1994, Brent Metcalfe, editor of New Approaches to the Book of Mormon, was excommunicated for questioning the authenticity of Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon.

    While it is true that some church scholars connected with Brigham Young University and FARMS have belittled the scholars who have been reprimanded or excommunicated, the top leaders of the church have been rather careful not to further antagonize those who have been disciplined.
    Issue 88 - Salt Lake City Messenger
     
  10. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Section 1. Be it ordained by the City Council of Nauvoo, that the Mayor of the city be and is hereby authorized to sell or give spirits of any quantity as he in his wisdom shall judge to be for the health and comfort or convenience of such travelers or other persons as shall visit his house from time to time. Passed December 12, 1843. Joseph Smith, Mayor. Willard Richards, Recorder. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p.111).

    Joseph Smith's own son related the following: About 1842, a new and larger house was built for us ... and a sign was put out giving it the dignified name of "The Nauvoo Mansion" ...Mother was to be installed as landlady, and soon made a trip to Saint Louis.... When she returned Mother found installed in the keeping-room of the hotel— that is to say, the main room where the guests assembled and where they were received upon arrival—a bar, with counter, shelves, bottles, glasses and other paraphernalia customary for a fully-equipped tavern bar, and Porter Rockwell in charge as tender. She was very much surprised and disturbed over this arrangement,... "Joseph," she asked, "What is the meaning of that bar in this house? ... How does it look," she asked, "for the spiritual head of a religious body to be keeping a hotel in which is a room fitted out as a liquor-selling establishment?" He reminded her that all taverns had their bars at which liquor was sold or dispensed.... Mother's reply came emphatically clear, though uttered quietly: "Well, Joseph,... I will take my children and go across to the old house and stay there, for I will not have them raised up under such conditions as this arrangement imposes upon us, nor have them mingle with the kind of men who frequent such a place. You are at liberty to make your choice; either that bar goes out of the house, or we will!" It did not take Father long to make the choice, for he replied immediately, "Very well, Emma; I will have it removed at once"—and he did (The Saints' Herald, January 22, 1935, p.110). Oliver Boardman Huntington recorded the following incident in his journal:
    Robert Thompson was a faithful just clerk for Joseph Smith the Prophet in Nauvoo and had been in his office steady near or quite 2 years. Joseph said to brother Thompson one day. "Robert I want you to go and get on a buss [bust?] go and get drunk and have a good spree, If you don't you will die." Robert did not do it. He was very pious exemplary man and never guilty of such an impropriety as he thought that to be. In less than 2 weeks he was dead and buried (Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, typed copy at Utah State Historical Society, vol. 2, p.166). Brigham Young's Distillery Brigham Young spoke a great deal about the Word of Wisdom, but he seemed to have a difficult struggle applying it to his own life. According to Hosea Stout's diary (On The Mormon Frontier, vol. 1, p.75). Brigham Young declared on September 27, 1845: "... I am and ever intend to be the Master of my passions ... some may say that I am in the habits of taking snuff and tea yet I am no slave to these passions and can leave these off if they make my brother affronted...." In 1854 Brigham Young drank coffee on a regular basis (see Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.408). On April 7, 1867, Brigham Young acknowledged in the Tabernacle that he had chewed tobacco for many years: "... it is not
    ...
     
  11. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    my privilege to drink liquor, neither is it my privilege to eat tobacco. Well, bro. Brigham, have you not done it? Yes, for many years, but I ceased its habitual practice. I used it for toothache; now I am free from that pain, and my mouth is never stained with tobacco" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p.404). On the way to Utah, Brigham Young counseled the Mormons to "make beer as a drink" (John D. Lee, p. 116). Historian Hurbert Howe Bancroft says that "the first barroom in S.L. City, and the only one for years, was in the Salt Lake House, owned by President Young and Feramorz Little" (History of Utah, p.540, footnote 44). Stanley P. Hirshon writes: In Utah the church dominated the liquor trade. In 1856 Caleb Green freighted six tons of tobacco, rum, whiskey, brandy, tea, and coffee across the plains for Young, and two years later The New York Times reported that the "principal drinkingsaloon and gambling-room are in Salt Lake House, a building under the control of the Church and the immediate superintendency of Heber C. Kimball." ...Young tried his best to rid himself of rival brewers (The Lion of the Lord, p.285).

    On June 7, 1863, Brigham Young acknowledged publicly that he had built a distillery:
    "When there was no whisky to be had here, and we needed it for rational purposes,
    I built a house to make it in. When the distillery was almost completed and in good working order, an army was heard of in our vicinity and I shut up the works; I did not make a gallon of whisky at my works, because it came here in great quantities, more than was needed" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p.206). Hubert Howe Bancroft records: "Peter K. Dotson,... came to Salt Lake City in 1851, and was first employed by Brigham as manager of a distillery, afterwards becoming express and mail agent" (History of Utah, p.573, footnote 2). Josiah F. Gibbs provided further information concerning Brigham Young's distillery: During forty years the Mormon prophets absolutely controlled the city council and police force of Salt Lake.... Instead, however, of bringing their unappealable dictum to bear on the side of temperance and decent morals, the Prophet Brigham became a distiller of whiskey and other intoxicants, and high priests were the wholesale and retail distributors.... On July 2, 1861, the special committee, to whom was referred the subject of the manufacture and sale of liquor, presented a report reading as follows: "To the Honorable Mayor of Salt Lake City: — "Your committee, to whom was referred the subject of the manufacture and sale of spirituous liquor, would report that they visited several distilleries in and near the city and would respectfully recommend that the City Council purchase or rent the distillery erected by Brigham Young near the Mouth of Parley's canyon, and put the same in immediate operation, employing such persons as shall be deemed necessary to manufacture a sufficient quantity to answer the public demand; controlling the sale of the same, and that the profits accruing therefrom be paid into the City Treasury. (Signed) Alderman Clinton,
     
  12. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Can someone find,
    Senate Document 189, 26th Congress, 2nd Session, 1841; The Testimony given before the judge of the fifth judicial circuit of the State of Missouri, on the trial of Joseph Smith Jr., and others, for high treason, and other crimes against that State.
     
  13. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    In the short chapter I posted, I am taking Peter's logic to its logical conclusion. If the catholic church is unworthy due misbehavior, then so are the founding prophets of LSD Church. It is worse for LDS because it demonstrates that JS and BY were not even Christians and in no way are they prophets of God.
     
  14. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Not so.
    They would just read them to mean something not there. Many today do that.
    The Jews did not destroy the Hebrew scritures in their great apotacy and total paganism and Baal worship,
     
  15. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    dzheremi says:

    My 5 headed response was in regards to your post before I mentioned Ibas', case review. So I was not talking about the Pentarchy fighting about Ibas. I was responding to there was no clear head of the church after the apostles died.
    And if you don't think the 5 did not quarrel with each other, sometimes violently, all you have to study is Dioscorus and what he did at Ephesus II. Including killing Flavius, setting his own secretary of ? as the bishop of Constantinople, and excommunicating Pope Leo.

    Leo of course countered back, and annulled the entire council and excommunicated those who participated in all the shenanigans, well, it goes on and on and on, and I have said nothing yet of Ibas.
    I will agree that most wanted Ibas excommunicated, except but it was the way they went about it. Did you read the summary his case.
    He was found not guilty by 4 different bishops, but the accusers then went to the emperor and finally got a soft ear. He it is that found Ibas guilty and it is he that took him out of his bishopbric, and replaced him. The council of Eph. confirmed the emperor's wish and Ibas went down without a whimper, and that is because he was not allowed to defend himself, and 3 of the 4 bishops reversed their opinions under pressure from Dioscorus.

    Then tell me who the head of the church was at the time of Constantine, or Theodosius?

    Jesus is the chief cornerstone also, and other leaders of the church at the time of Jesus were the apostles and prophets (mainly) and others. When Jesus left for heaven, he left men in leadership positions in the church. Peter held the keys and was considered the leader of the apostles. James and John too had leadership positions with Peter. We think James was not only an apostle but was also the first bishop of the church in Jerusalem, so he had a double leadership role to perform.

    When the first dispute came up, the apostles that were in Jerusalem, and the elders had a conference and decided what should be done. Peter opened up the conference, and lots of people spoke and gave their opinions, then James, being the mouth for the apostles, declared what was to be done. The conference lasted a short time, there was no endless debate, and they all moved forward as one.

    No second conference was convened by disgruntled elders that did not get their way. No second conference of elders and an apostle that felt he was overlooked and shoved in a corner, so he is now wreaking his revenge on the other apostles. Nobody was beat to death, nobody was excommunicated, there was no rioting.

    How is it terrible? It was terrible if you are thinking there was no apostasy, but had to read this summary of incredible corruption. So I quess I can see your point.

    Is that watch your sources like when I tell you to watch the sources you read and listen to when learning about The Church of Jesus Christ? Well I agree with you and I will.

    Yes, councils happened, but when you read about them, it is like reading about the game of 'Clue'.

    Is Wikipedia a decent source, or the internet in general?
    To me when I read the history, I wonder how anything got done for Jesus. I know there were good leaders that did wonderful things for Jesus, but I feel like these good leaders were quite far and in between bad leaders. Of the good leaders, what you hear often is that they were good administrators and were well organized, not that they were holy men of God that were serving the people day and night to bring Jesus in their midst. The occupation of a throne and the reception of power both spiritual and secular seemed to occupy their time more than the pursuits of living a life like Jesus and being a true vicar of Christ to their people.
    History does not leave us a day to day itinerary of the bishops whereabouts, so I am probably hard on them because we do not have all that they do, but what we have is not a good snapshot of many of them and how they ruled.
     
  16. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    I have not read in their entirety all that you have written and presented. But, I will say this:
    When white men were found guilty of horse or cattle stealing, they were rounded up and hung from the closest tree.
    The same thing applied to Indians.

    If a war exists, there will be lives lost. That is the result of war, wherever it exists. The Church of Jesus Christ was told to go to the desert of the great Salt Lake. There were only a few Indians in the whole state, so it was not going to be a huge problem. In fact
    BY gave instructions to feed the Indians whenever possible and to be peaceful with them.

    Some Indians of course did not like white men in their territory, which they took by bloodshed from other Indians earlier in history. Any expansion of any group of people was going to eventually erupt into conflict and it did for Mormons as well as non-Mormons in Utah.

    It is unfortunate that these things happened, but opening up the wild west was not an easy job to tackle.
     
  17. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    I take it that you didn't dig too deeply into this one, did you?

    1. Josh Powell's father was a hard-core anti-Mormon minister who was pressuring Josh into leaving the church, such that Josh was no longer functionally a member, if he was still even on the rolls at all.

    2. Powell Sr. was found to have been into some very, very awful things, such that he may have even attempted to take hidden camera footage of Susan during what should have been private moments.

    3. When Susan disappeared, Powell Sr. and his cohort tried to allege that Susan had run off with someone from church and made all sorts of slanderous claims *about* the church.

    Put it together, and we have the horrific prospect that Powell Sr. was the one who killed Susan and that Josh was forced to cover it up to protect him.

    Think about that one.
     
  18. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    1. The move to Utah was specifically for the goal of finding a place so abandoned and arid that it was hoped no one other than the members of the church would ever want to be there. And while it was Mexican territory at the time, Mexico wasn't enforcing its claim.

    2. Brigham Young offered to assist the federal government during the initial 1859 investigation, something that the anti-Mormon pundits who go on about Mountain Meadows tend to deliberately overlook.
     
  19. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Us Christians are more guilty of that.

    Those of US raised in Judaism would rather die than allow the Scriptures to be corrupted.
    The point is, if Christians were to revise, change the Bible Text they would expose it. There is no record, examples of Christians corrupting the Hebrew Bible. In fact, in the Dead Sea Scrolls there is a copy of Isaiah that predated any manuscripts for Isaiah. Which is a witness against any so-called Great Apostasy.
     
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