If a believer prays for a non-believer...what happens?

[zippy2006]

You must have missed that it was about prayer for conversion

If a Muslim told you they are praying for you to go to Islam because Islam is the true way of happiness. They're praying for Allah (who I'm pretending isn't Yahweh) to 'guide' you toward Islam, despite you being happy you're a Christian.

They have all good intentions in mind right? But I'm more than certain you'd take issue.

When I speak of a Muslim praying for me, I am assuming they are praying for my conversion and salvation through the religion of Islam which they believe to be exclusive. I was talking about conversion the whole time. Conversion is the means to happiness in the eyes of most religions, and thus is intimately bound up with happiness.

Why do they believe your lifestyle isn't good enough that they want you to change it to be more similar to theirs? That's disrespectful to the person.

They believe I am lacking something that I ought to have, and wish for me to have that thing. I do not find that disrespectful whatsoever.

Prayer for conversion is veiled intolerance.

I can't post links yet, but I looked at the Merriam-Webster definition of "intolerance" and I do not see any way in which prayer for the salvation of others is a form of intolerance. Which definition does it transgress?

Now if you want to pray that I pass this A+ certification test and MAKE IT OUT OF WENDY'S FOREVER I'll take that as a VERY kind gesture. (Please do it if you're so merciful)

Done.

But don't pray for an agent to make or influence any major changes in my entire life and lifestyle choices that should be made by me and only me. It disrespects me.

I am praying for God to give you a gift. It is no different from praying for the gift of A+ certification. Neither objectively disrespects you in any way.

In precisely what way does praying for your conversion "disrespect" you? In what way does it negatively affect you whatsoever?

 

[TheBarrd]

Grim, you break my heart, you truly do.
Of course people are going to pray for you, silly one.
Now, if you're so sure God doesn't exist, why should that bother you?


Or....



Are you just a wee bit worried that Someone just might, maybe...hear that one prayer, that one pure prayer of love, ringing out like a silver bell?
Scared God might actually love even you????

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Grim, you break my heart, you truly do.
Of course people are going to pray for you, silly one.
Now, if you're so sure God doesn't exist, why should that bother you?


Or....



Are you just a wee bit worried that Someone just might, maybe...hear that one prayer, that one pure prayer of love, ringing out like a silver bell?
Scared God might actually love even you????

I come from a very religious black family and have 7 aunts (that I know about; extended family -- please kill me). Church is woven into everything about us. One aunt is a Sunday School teacher. Another posts day after day about Jesus on facebook etc.

I know about praying. I know it doesn't work.

It bothers me when people pray for me like I've lost my path and am unable to help myself. It bothers me people I don't know take that much concern about my life and the decisions I make and the beliefs I may or may not hold that they beg a third party to change them

That's concerning.

 

[TheBarrd]

You come into a Christian forum and announce that you are an atheist.
More...you are an atheist who has lost the faith he once had.
You tell us that you come from a very religious family.

And you honestly don't expect Christians to pray for you?

Me, I'm more concerned about your family. How you must break your poor Momma's heart!!! How many tears she must weep for her lost little one!!
And you such an angry atheist...
My heart does ache for your family...

 

[Deidre32]

It is a very common life pattern:

Youth education (brainwash) --> rebellion --> experiences --> back to origin.

You are in step 2.

Think about a fact: There are many more old people than young people in church. Not only it is so now, but it is always that way for centuries. Ask yourself: where do those old people come from? Why didn't they just die off? In other words, if a bunch of old people in today's church faded away, why are there still so many old people in church 20 years from now?

I'm not rebelling against anything.

 

[Deidre32]

You come into a Christian forum and announce that you are an atheist.
More...you are an atheist who has lost the faith he once had.
You tell us that you come from a very religious family.

And you honestly don't expect Christians to pray for you?

Me, I'm more concerned about your family. How you must break your poor Momma's heart!!! How many tears she must weep for her lost little one!!
And you such an angry atheist...
My heart does ache for your family...

I don't see him as angry, I see him as just weary of people telling him that if he doesn't believe as they wish him to, that he is in the wrong. I was raised in a Christian home, and about four years ago, left that religion. I accepted atheism as a natural conclusion to my many doubts...and then, I've wavered about it over the past year or so. Only to come back to the same opinion that if a god exists, no one could possibly know him/it as so many religions claim. That doesn't make me angry, that just makes me realistic. I don't begrudge anyone from following a religion...but to suggest that someone is wrong because he doesn't follow your religion, doesn't make sense to me.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

You come into a Christian forum and announce that you are an atheist.
More...you are an atheist who has lost the faith he once had.
You tell us that you come from a very religious family.

And you honestly don't expect Christians to pray for you?

Me, I'm more concerned about your family. How you must break your poor Momma's heart!!! How many tears she must weep for her lost little one!!
And you such an angry atheist...
My heart does ache for your family...

My father is a deist so I've been unintentionally following his footsteps. It wasn't til about a couple years ago where I found out we've done similar things and held similar beliefs.

My mother doesn't care, lol she still takes my little brother and sister to church and volunteers what time she can. But my older brother and father and myself are non religious. And I suspect my little brother too.

She even admits she regretted not bringing me to church enough and getting me more into faith. But I'm adult now so she respects it, albeit she still says I should go to church.

My family life has gotten 200% better since I left religion actually.

And believe it or not I'm one of the most jolly people most people come across. I give laughs. My fury and anger is simply a nozzle I can turn on and off like a mobster. It's not who I am, but it's what I can do.

 

[talquin]

Posted this on another forum, and thought I'd ask it here, since it's somewhat religious, and philosophical.

If I don't believe that God exists, and someone prays for me...will God still bless me? (if he or it exists)

I don't think it would be contingent on someone praying for you. If an all-loving god does exist, he/it would love you and would do everything in its power to see that the best happens to you.

I've been wondering this lately.

People often 'pray' for me, or tell me that God loves me...but if I don't believe what they believe, what happens? Does a god require a person's belief, to 'bless' him/her?

Despite the frequent occurrence of argument from personal experience, if a god exists, it would be objectively the same to all of us. As mentioned above, if God loves everyone, it wouldn't matter if you don't believe God exists. God would treat you just as well as he would those who do believe God exists.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You come into a Christian forum and announce that you are an atheist.
More...you are an atheist who has lost the faith he once had.
You tell us that you come from a very religious family.

And you honestly don't expect Christians to pray for you?

Me, I'm more concerned about your family. How you must break your poor Momma's heart!!! How many tears she must weep for her lost little one!!
And you such an angry atheist...
My heart does ache for your family...

You act as though his family has something to be sorrowful for. There was a recent documentary on atheists in the US. The focus was on a young atheist whose parents were still devoutly Christian. The father called his son a "dead person". This is the sort of attitude many atheists have to put up with from their still religious families. Your concern about the families is misplaced.

 

[Oafman]

My mum prays for me. It makes her feel better, so I encourage it. I take the same approach to anyone else who wants to pray for me.

They're doing it for themselves, not for me, whether or not they realise it.

 

[zippy2006]

...but to suggest that someone is wrong because he doesn't follow your religion, doesn't make sense to me.

Doesn't it? When you were an atheist did you think that theists were wrong? As soon as you believe something is true then you necessarily believe other, contradictory things are false, at least if you are intellectually honest. An atheist who doesn't think theists are wrong is by definition irrational.

 

[Deidre32]

Doesn't it? When you were an atheist did you think that theists were wrong? As soon as you believe something is true then you necessarily believe other, contradictory things are false, at least if you are intellectually honest. An atheist who doesn't think theists are wrong is by definition irrational.

I'm an atheist/agnostic. If there were a choice for that, I'd choose it. I chose the agnostic label, because over the past year, I've wavered from atheism to deism...back to atheism. (I was a Christian most of my life, however)

Having said that, I believe that religion isn't based on evidence and therefore isn't objective true, but I can't tell a theist that he/she is 'wrong,' to wish to believe in something beyond this life. I just believe that religion should stay private, and not force itself onto non-believers.

 

[zippy2006]

I'm an atheist/agnostic. If there were a choice for that, I'd choose it. I chose the agnostic label, because over the past year, I've wavered from atheism to deism...back to atheism. (I was a Christian most of my life, however)

Okay. It's normal to waver, especially when you are trying to figure out what is true. As long as your ears are open, it will be hard to completely ignore the soft rapping at the door--God will call out to you in any number of ways. He is fond of throwing kinks in the atheist's hose. Indeed we have all wavered, and we all continue to waver. C.S. Lewis calls it the "Law of undulation." Yet a certain resonance or harmony does emerge after a time. It is not a cessation of wavering, but it is a confidence that Christ will not allow the downward spikes to throw you into the abyss. ...so the difference is hope. Don't let anyone tell you that hope is a small thing.

Having said that, I believe that religion isn't based on evidence and therefore isn't objective true, but I can't tell a theist that he/she is 'wrong,' to wish to believe in something beyond this life.

Then you say, "I think you are wrong with respect to your belief in God, but I don't think you are wrong to desire something beyond this life. That is a desire that we all have." What's wrong with that?

If you believe God doesn't exist, then you believe theists are wrong about God's existence. There's no way around it. That doesn't mean you think they are "wrong to wish/desire..." (I speak here of atheists, not necessarily "you" if you do not currently fall into that camp)

I just believe that religion should stay private, and not force itself onto non-believers.

I don't think religion should stay private. Why do you believe that?

That said, there is a lot of ground between "staying private" and "forcing something on others." Most all aspects of human life avoid both of those extremes, especially in the United States.

 

[Deidre32]

Okay. It's normal to waver, especially when you are trying to figure out what is true. As long as your ears are open, it will be hard to completely ignore the soft rapping at the door--God will call out to you in any number of ways. He is fond of throwing kinks in the atheist's hose. Indeed we have all wavered, and we all continue to waver. C.S. Lewis calls it the "Law of undulation." Yet a certain resonance or harmony does emerge after a time. It is not a cessation of wavering, but it is a confidence that Christ will not allow the downward spikes to throw you into the abyss. ...so the difference is hope. Don't let anyone tell you that hope is a small thing.



Then you say, "I think you are wrong with respect to your belief in God, but I don't think you are wrong to desire something beyond this life. That is a desire that we all have." What's wrong with that?

If you believe God doesn't exist, then you believe theists are wrong about God's existence. There's no way around it. That doesn't mean you think they are "wrong to wish/desire..." (I speak here of atheists, not necessarily "you" if you do not currently fall into that camp)



I don't think religion should stay private. Why do you believe that?

That said, there is a lot of ground between "staying private" and "forcing something on others." Most all aspects of human life avoid both of those extremes, especially in the United States.

I'll address the rest tomorrow, but with respect to the privacy of religion...it should be an individual thing, not something to seep into government, etc. In the US, homosexuals were not permitted to marry largely due to a religious tenet that marriage is between one man and one woman, so even in the US, religion has overstepped its boundaries at times. Thank you for your comments, you've been thoughtful...I will reply tomorrow after some sleep. lol

 

[TheBarrd]

I very honestly do not see how legalizing a perversion is a good idea, and I'm pretty sure I'd still think the same way if I were not a Christian.
It seems to me that we are on a pretty slippery slope here.

From the scientific pov, same gender sex is a dead end. There is no evolutionary benefit.
The best theory I've ever heard is that perhaps it is nature's way of dealing with overpopulation in the absence of predators...
However, it is a perversion of the natural sex drive, just like any other perversion.
So, why can't old Auntie Agatha marry her german shepherd? What is she hurting?

 

[TheBarrd]

Religion, by it's very nature, is not a private thing. It is a community thing, as it should be.
I resent being told that I must leave my faith at home...

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I very honestly do not see how legalizing a perversion is a good idea, and I'm pretty sure I'd still think the same way if I were not a Christian.
It seems to me that we are on a pretty slippery slope here.

From the scientific pov, same gender sex is a dead end. There is no evolutionary benefit.

Not everyone in a population has to reproduce. It may be beneficial for some members of the population to contribute to its growth and stability in other ways. This may include child-rearing without reproduction, or it may include other activities that support the population. There's more to our survival as a species than just reproduction.

However, it is a perversion of the natural sex drive, just like any other perversion.

So you keep claiming.

So, why can't old Auntie Agatha marry her german shepherd? What is she hurting?

Is the german shepherd able to consent to such a marriage? Does it have a concept of 'marriage'?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Religion, by it's very nature, is not a private thing. It is a community thing, as it should be.
I resent being told that I must leave my faith at home...

Leave it in your church then.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

I very honestly do not see how legalizing a perversion is a good idea, and I'm pretty sure I'd still think the same way if I were not a Christian.
It seems to me that we are on a pretty slippery slope here.

From the scientific pov, same gender sex is a dead end. There is no evolutionary benefit.
The best theory I've ever heard is that perhaps it is nature's way of dealing with overpopulation in the absence of predators...
However, it is a perversion of the natural sex drive, just like any other perversion.
So, why can't old Auntie Agatha marry her german shepherd? What is she hurting?

Whoa how'd this slippery slope get here?

WHOA! *Crash*

 

[Messy]

Posted this on another forum, and thought I'd ask it here, since it's somewhat religious, and philosophical.

If I don't believe that God exists, and someone prays for me...will God still bless me? (if he or it exists)

I've been wondering this lately.

People often 'pray' for me, or tell me that God loves me...but if I don't believe what they believe, what happens? Does a god require a person's belief, to 'bless' him/her?

You can't pray against someone's will. If someone who is not a believer is sick and I ask: Can I pray for you to get healed? (Btw that also counts for a believer who doesn't believe God wants to heal him/her) and the answer is no I can pray that God opens their eyes but it's no use praying for healing since the only thing God needs is permission. I asked two collegues if I could pray for them, one was a believer, the other an atheist who wanted nothing to do with God. The believer got mad and said no, who did I think I was, that I could just ask God to heal him. He didn't get healed, I prayed for a year and it got a bit better, but then he really said no and I gave up. The atheist said: Oh thanks, that's friendly and I wonder if he believed it one inch. He got healed and I think he forgot all about it.