If a believer prays for a non-believer...what happens?

[2PhiloVoid]

It's praying that people will lose their mind and abandon reason because you want them to. It's basically a form of intolerance.

If they're not like me then they should be, so I'm going to beg my spiritual agent to make them like me. Forget their individuality and thinking process. I don't like them living the life they see fit so they need to be like me! NOW!

Creepy. Even if it's not meant to be seen that way, that's basically what praying for conversion is. It's bone-chilling actually.

Praying for someone's eternal welfare is only intolerance if one assumes, A PRIORI, that the Bible is utterly false and that the modern Human Rights paradigm is absolutely true.

However, on just a very a practical level of thinking, I too find it a bit distasteful when other people presume to read my mind, my intentions, my aptitudes, or my attitude, particular without asking me first about these things. It's this type of sloppy thinking and social conduct I find to be somewhat Creepy, whether coming from atheists or Christians.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

 

[zippy2006]

People often 'pray' for me, or tell me that God loves me...but if I don't believe what they believe, what happens? Does a god require a person's belief, to 'bless' him/her?

There seems to be a very simple answer to your question. We are speaking of petitionary prayer, which by analogy is like asking a favor of a friend.

For an easy example, let's take a concrete thing. Suppose your lawn has some weeds in it. I tell you I have a friend named John and will ask John to stop by and take care of your weeds. Now let's rephrase your question:

Zippy asked John to clean up the weeds in my yard. If I don't believe John exists, then what happens?​

...there is really no difference between these two examples. Your beliefs are not determinative of reality whether we are talking about God or John, and either one can influence your life if they exist, regardless of what you believe.

Indeed God is always positively influencing you, pouring out gifts into you. God is holding your monitor and the eyes that look at them, your keyboard and the fingers that type, your mind and the ideas it produces, in existence. If God stopped pouring Being into the world and creating it at each moment, everything would cease to exist in the blink of an eye. He does all this regardless of your disbelief. "He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent" (St. Augustine).

God bless, ()
-zip

 

[TillICollapse]

nm

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Praying for someone's eternal welfare is only intolerance if one assumes, A PRIORI, that the Bible is utterly false and that the modern Human Rights paradigm is absolutely true.

However, on just a very a practical level of thinking, I too find it a bit distasteful when other people presume to read my mind, my intentions, my aptitudes, or my attitude, particular without asking me first about these things. It's this type of sloppy thinking and social conduct I find to be somewhat Creepy, whether coming from atheists or Christians.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

So it's true that you're so irked by me not believing what you believe that you pray that that changes so you can be comfortable. It saddens you that someone entirely independent of you hold your same view so you pray and put a bid in with a spirit agent to change that.

That's obsessive and creepy. Because believe me, when someone disagrees with me and my ideals or what have you (which is a very frequent occurrence), the very last thing I do is go home and beg a sky daddy to make them agree with me magically. I just accept that I have a disagreement with said person and my life goes on.

Either YOU yourself convince me through the art of rhetoric or leave it alone. Don't obsess over it to the point where you beg sky daddy to win the argument for you.

Again. Creepy.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So it's true that you're so irked by me not believing what you believe that you pray that that changes so you can be comfortable. It saddens you that someone entirely independent of you hold your same view so you pray and put a bid in with a spirit agent to change that.

That's obsessive and creepy. Because believe me, when someone disagrees with me and my ideals or what have you (which is a very frequent occurrence), the very last thing I do is go home and beg a sky daddy to make them agree with me magically. I just accept that I have a disagreement with said person and my life goes on.

Either YOU yourself convince me through the art of rhetoric or leave it alone. Don't obsess over it to the point where you beg sky daddy to win the argument for you.

Again. Creepy.

...and our lives go on.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

...and our lives goes on.

But why is it even a concern in the first place? Your belief doesn't concern me

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But why is it even a concern in the first place? Your belief doesn't concern me

Then why do you ask? I'm ending here so as to not upend Deidre's OP, Grim.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Posted this on another forum, and thought I'd ask it here, since it's somewhat religious, and philosophical.

If I don't believe that God exists, and someone prays for me...will God still bless me? (if he or it exists)

I've been wondering this lately.

People often 'pray' for me, or tell me that God loves me...but if I don't believe what they believe, what happens? Does a god require a person's belief, to 'bless' him/her?

...I don't think it's always the case that a non-believer must believe to receive some level of benefit from God when a Christian may be praying (or even at times when it's just God looking down on you). "...for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust" (Matthew 5:44-45).

So, whether you're a 'just' or even an 'unjust' atheist who just happens to be wandering through life, it can still happen that some form of blessing may come upon you from the Father above.

Peace, Deidre

2PhiloVoid

 

[Cearbhall]

If I don't believe that God exists, and someone prays for me...will God still bless me? (if he or it exists)

If a deity exists that is in the habit of answering such requests, then yes, I imagine.

 

[Wryetui]

I pray for my atheist friends because I want them to meet God and have eternal life, what's the problem with atheist for this? You atheists say God doesn't exist so I'm talking alone practically? So? Let me talk alone if I think it helps you, I'm doing it out of love.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

I pray for my atheist friends because I want them to meet God and have eternal life, what's the problem with atheist for this? You atheists say God doesn't exist so I'm talking alone practically? So? Let me talk alone if I think it helps you, I'm doing it out of love.

I can't speak for all atheists but I'll speak for myself. I know you don't pray for me too. So if you, again, beg a spiritual agent to change my lifestyle for me because me living my life the way I see fit just isn't good enough for you, that's sad.

My life, lifestyle, and life decisions are of no concern to you. And you nor your supposed agent shall have no bearing upon it.

Pray for change in your own life, not to change someone else's who's perfectly fine.

And whatever happened to us coming to "Him" by our own accords? Wouldn't this be a manner of forcing faith? I thought you didn't want disingenuous faith among you (not like it's not wreathed with it already)

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I don't mind people praying for me. Interesting thing though: I tend to think in terms of individual prayers and answers. That's my mental model. But there are probably millions of prayers said for people like me daily, across the Christian world. So if I "get lucky" and am "blessed" in some way, I see this as maybe the result of one or two prayers, or general divine providence, not a combination of millions or requests in summation.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I can't speak for all atheists but I'll speak for myself. I know you don't pray for me too. So if you, again, beg a spiritual agent to change my lifestyle for me because me living my life the way I see fit just isn't good enough for you, that's sad.

My life, lifestyle, and life decisions are of no concern to you. And you nor your supposed agent shall have no bearing upon it.

Pray for change in your own life, not to change someone else's who's perfectly fine.

And whatever happened to us coming to "Him" by our own accords? Wouldn't this be a manner of forcing faith? I thought you didn't want disingenuous faith among you (not like it's not wreathed with it already)

Grim,

There is another angle. As a Christian, I can pray that God will 'help' you to reach new conclusions over time without praying that He should override your will to do so.

Besides, if I'm 'free,' and I am, I'll pray for you at any time I wish to do so as a part of my knowing of God's Kingdom Plans through Christ in the world...and I can pray that God will send a blessing into your life that will be an influence from 'the outside' rather than as an influence from 'the inside.'

And if you don't like it, well 'bless' you anyway!

Peace
2Philovoid

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Grim,

There is another angle. As a Christian, I can pray that God will 'help' you to reach new conclusions over time without praying that He should override your will to do so.

Besides, if I'm 'free,' and I am, I'll pray for you at any time I wish to do so as a part of my knowing of God's Kingdom Plans through Christ in the world...and I can pray that God will send a blessing into your life that will be an influence from 'the outside' rather than as an influence from 'the inside.'

And if you don't like it, well 'bless' you anyway!

Peace
2Philovoid

You still don't get it. I shouldn't concern you at all. Why are you praying for someone who clearly isn't a Christian ? Pray for a Christian if you're gonna pray for someone because they're under your umbrella.

I live my life as I see fit without 'help' from spirit agents. I don't want or need the help and you should respect that. It should be out of sight, out of mind. You're like a telemarketer.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You still don't get it. I shouldn't concern you at all. Why are you praying for someone who clearly isn't a Christian ? Pray for a Christian if you're gonna pray for someone because they're under your umbrella.

I live my life as I see fit without 'help' from spirit agents. I don't want or need the help and you should respect that. It should be out of sight, out of mind. You're like a telemarketer.

Sure. I understand that you have your point of view on this issue--you don't want Christians to be mindful of you.

But if this is the case, then your coming onto a Christian Forum and communicating with various Christians, who more often than not are Kingdom Minded, doesn't really demonstrate that you want us to be fully unmindful of you.

Also, Grim, you have to remember, Christians have been supposing the Kingdom Initiative of Christ in the world (i.e. the Great Commission) for nearly two thousand years, so your wanting to have us be 'unmindful' about you doesn't quite fit the ongoing Christian social schematic. Furthermore, if we Christians pray for other people who are not Christian, some of this comes out of our analogous moral situations and sympathies, for we have also been challenged to change and/or make reforms in our lives; we are sinners too, and some of our own sins have been very difficult to overcome.

2PhiloVoid

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Sure. I understand that you have your point of view on this issue--you don't want Christians to be mindful of you.

But if this is the case, then your coming onto a Christian Forum and communicating with various Christians, who more often than not are Kingdom Minded, doesn't really demonstrate that you want us to be fully unmindful of you.

Also, Grim, you have to remember, Christians have been supposing the Kingdom Initiative of Christ in the world (i.e. the Great Commission) for nearly two thousand years, so your wanting to have us be 'unmindful' about you doesn't quite fit the ongoing Christian social schematic. Furthermore, if we Christians pray for other people who are not Christian, some of this comes out of our analogous moral situations and sympathies, for we have also been challenged to change and/or make reforms in our lives; we are sinners too, and some of our own sins have been very difficult to overcome.

2PhiloVoid

While I give you that I'm on a Christian forum I feel you pray for the wrong reasons. You don't pray for my happiness and success you pray because you feel that I'm broken and lost and need guidance. If you didn't think so you wouldn't be asking for an agent to 'help' me, because you're sure I'm incapable of helping myself.

Believe it or not, humans can help themselves and one another. I have not needed an agent ever.

 

[zippy2006]

You don't pray for my happiness and success you pray because you feel that I'm broken and lost and need guidance.

Rather, it would be impossible to pray for someone's happiness if you believe they are already happy. Also, if you pray that someone who is unhealthy regain their health, you are at the same time praying for their happiness. So it's just not the case that you have to choose between praying for someone's happiness and believing that they are not happy. On the contrary the two go perfectly together.

What do I do if a Muslim prays for me? I say "thank you." Theirs is an act of kindness, an act of benevolence, even if it is mistaken. And if I am already saved, then why would it bother me that someone pray for my salvation? If I am already happy, then why would it bother me that someone pray for my happiness? Their prayer would be seen as superfluous, but that's nothing to get angry about. If you are as happy and self-sufficient as you claim, then prayers for your well-being should not bother you.

God bless,
-zip

 

[2PhiloVoid]

While I give you that I'm on a Christian forum I feel you pray for the wrong reasons. You don't pray for my happiness and success you pray because you feel that I'm broken and lost and need guidance. If you didn't think so you wouldn't be asking for an agent to 'help' me, because you're sure I'm incapable of helping myself.

Believe it or not, humans can help themselves and one another. I have not needed an agent ever.

Alright, Grim. I hear you.

While I can't vouch for other Christians who may interact with you, I will personally keep in mind that you want respect for your self-sufficiency and to be known as a capable person who is responsible for his own life. That's fine with me.

2PhiloVoid

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Rather, it would be impossible to pray for someone's happiness if you believe they are already happy. Also, if you pray that someone who is unhealthy regain their health, you are at the same time praying for their happiness. So it's just not the case that you have to choose between praying for someone's happiness and believing that they are not happy. On the contrary the two go perfectly together.

What do I do if a Muslim prays for me? I say "thank you." Theirs is an act of kindness, an act of benevolence, even if it is mistaken. And if I am already saved, then why would it bother me that someone pray for my salvation? If I am already happy, then why would it bother me that someone pray for my happiness? Their prayer would be seen as superfluous, but that's nothing to get angry about. If you are as happy and self-sufficient as you claim, then prayers for your well-being should not bother you.

God bless,
-zip

You must have missed that it was about prayer for conversion.

If a Muslim told you they are praying for you to go to Islam because Islam is the true way of happiness. They're praying for Allah (who I'm pretending isn't Yahweh) to 'guide' you toward Islam, despite you being happy you're a Christian.

They have all good intentions in mind right? But I'm more than certain you'd take issue.

Why do they believe your lifestyle isn't good enough that they want you to change it to be more similar to theirs? That's disrespectful to the person. Prayer for conversion is veiled intolerance.

Now if you want to pray that I pass this A+ certification test and MAKE IT OUT OF WENDY'S FOREVER I'll take that as a VERY kind gesture. (Please do it if you're so merciful)

But don't pray for an agent to make or influence any major changes in my entire life and lifestyle choices that should be made by me and only me. It disrespects me.

Alright, Grim. I hear you.

While I can't vouch for other Christians who may interact with you, I will personally keep in mind that you want respect for your self-sufficiency and to be known as a capable person who is responsible for his own life. That's fine with me.

2PhiloVoid

Then we're golden

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Deidre32 it would seem we cross paths elsewhere as well lol