Idolatry

[seeking.IAM]

Actually literacy in the Christian East was much higher than in Western Europe during the Dark Ages, and the use of icons has only increased along with literacy in the Orthodox world, so the idea that the icons are some sort of visual substitute for reading the Bible, aside from being entirely contradicted by the Iconodule fathers like St. John of Damascus and the Seventh Ecumenical Council, is also debunked

Interesting. That is different information than I have from other Orthodox sources. What about the Bible in the hands of the common man during the dark ages, when copies were generated at the hand of scribes?

 

[RileyG]

Icons place in history is partially due to the fact of low literacy rates among early Christians and the lack of wide dissemination of Biblical texts before the advent of the printing press. Icons depicted the Christian story when literacy and written texts were in short supply. It is no surprise, then, that our Orthodox friends talking about "writing" Icons, not drawing them.

Yes. That is also why stained glass windows were used in the west because many of the faithful were illiterate.

 

[com7fy8]

you shall have no graven image, you shall not bow to them. So the making of something and venerating that created object.

Is this not a problem for certain churches who claim to be following apostolic teaching?

Yes, it says not to bow to them. But I consider that this means bowing in *worship*.

I can bow to tie my shoe laces.

So, I see it could be easy to justify and explain bowing before a statue of Jesus or someone who is considered to be an example to follow. And you are said to be meditating on what the statue can represent. So, your attention is not to the statue, but to what is meant.

But I believe that idolatry is not only a problem of worshiping graven images. But > covetousness is idolatry > in Colossians 3:5 we have "covetousness, which is idolatry". So, covetousness can be idolatry, by means of *how* a person's desire is for something which is not God. Worshiping God includes desiring Him most of all.

So . . . then . . . where our attention is going can be an indication of what and whom we worship. In case I am giving great amounts of attention to justifying the use of statues . . . my attention might be in the wrong place.

So, bowing before an image could be because of some sort of attention idolatry, versus first staying attentive to God in me constantly guiding me in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

Ministry can be an idol, by tying up one's attention away from sharing with God and submitting to Him. And so can family and friends and a career.

So, don't be tricked into arguing only about if statues are idols . . . while we totally overlook what may be a much more real problem

 

[Daniel Carlton]

Friends I skim read this thread and i don't think anyone mentioned Moses being commanded to make a graven image of a snake and lift it up for all to see for their healing.

As others have already point out in this thread - there were incidents where people made things and were not permitted, like the golden calf. But other times they were, like the Ark of the covenant. So what makes the difference? Simple, God commanded his people to build certain things at certain times, other times people were not commanded and were doing so purely from a sinful heart.

 

[Daniel Carlton]

Can you give a few citations?
I'd have to see what you are referring to in context to be able to comment.

So far post 45 and 58. Hard for you to find them as @Maria Billingsley correctly predicted that this tread would be derailed and indeed they come and did just that.

There are plenty more examples but to be honest this discussion has shifted from Idolatry is sin to ''Icons are not worshiped'' which to me is not a sufficient answer. As the scripture and church fathers do not make a distinction between an idol and an icon. They are described the same way. And the only way this theory could work is we switch the name out of something (idolatry), give it another name (icon) but problem is it is describing the sin.

If I got Ford car and kept the bodywork, doors, windows, interior, engine and everything else and took the Ford badge off and put a Ferrari badge on the ford, would it be a Ferrari or a ford? People who are claiming that ''icons'' is not idols are doing just that trick.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Worship - veneration... Can we define...

I witnessed in Cyprus a congregant coming in the church door and kissing all the Icons before being seated.

OK or not ?

 

[prodromos]

So far post 45 and 58.

Nohing in either quote suggests that icon veneration is what they mean by idolatry.

Hard for you to find them as @Maria Billingsley correctly predicted that this tread would be derailed and indeed the idolaters come and did just that.

You have not made a case that icon veneration is idolatry. Barnabas does not define idolatry and Justin Martyr specifically states that the idolaters consider their idols 'gods', which is exactly what I understand Barnabas to be referring to. Those of us who venerate icons do not for a moment consider the icons to be 'gods', so your charge against us of being idolaters is trivially dismissed.

There are plenty more examples

and you no doubt read into them what you want to see

but to be honest this discussion has shifted from Idolatry is sin to ''Icons are not worshiped'' which to me is not a sufficient answer.

Since you can't read our hearts as God can, you will just have to take our word as followers and worshippers of the God-man, Jesus Christ.

As the scripture and church fathers do not make a distinction between an idol and an icon. They are described the same way.

That is not true. It is the claim you make without any evidence.

And the only way this theory could work is we switch the name out of something (idolatry), give it another name (icon) but problem is it is describing the sin.

Your approach is just like those who argue that the earth is flat. They've already made up their minds and are deaf and blind to any explanations and arguments to the contrary.

If I got Ford car and kept the bodywork, doors, windows, interior, engine and everything else and took the Ford badge off and put a Ferrari badge on the ford, would it be a Ferrari or a ford?

It would be a Ford with a Ferrari badge

People who are claiming that ''icons'' is not idols are doing just that trick.

You are the one claiming icons are idols without evidence. Idol worshippers actually believed their idols to be a physical manifestation of their so-called 'gods'. Good luck making a case that anyone does that with icons.

 

[prodromos]

Worship - veneration... Can we define...

I witnessed in Cyprus a congregant coming in the church door and kissing all the Icons before being seated.

OK or not ?

In Greece, it was customary for those invited to someone's house, to kiss the hand of their host when they entered the house. When Greeks meet, they will kiss each other on the cheeks. It is a show of respect and love towards the other. We kiss the right hand of our priest for the same reason. When we kiss the icons we are showing our love and respect to the ones depicted in the icons, just as someone might kiss a photo of an absent loved one or as a child talking to their grandmother on the phone might kiss the phone goodnight.

If you want to talk worship, then I recommend you pay attention to the hymns and prayers of the Divine Liturgy.

 

[The Liturgist]

Worship - veneration... Can we define...

I witnessed in Cyprus a congregant coming in the church door and kissing all the Icons before being seated.

OK or not ?

What @prodromos has said is correct - the Orthodox do not worship icons, relics or each other, but venerate them in the same way Anglicans venerate each other in the Kiss of Peace, or that Maori venerate each other by pressing their noses together (indeed I would not be surprised if Maori converts to Orthodox Christianity venerated an icon in that manner rather than by kissing it). The difference is that the icons are not the recipient of adoration or service - these two things are due to God alone.

 

[Daniel Carlton]

Nohing in either quote suggests that icon veneration is what they mean by idolatry.

You have not made a case that icon veneration is idolatry. Barnabas does not define idolatry and Justin Martyr specifically states that the idolaters consider their idols 'gods', which is exactly what I understand Barnabas to be referring to. Those of us who venerate icons do not for a moment consider the icons to be 'gods', so your charge against us of being idolaters is trivially dismissed.

and you no doubt read into them what you want to see

Since you can't read our hearts as God can, you will just have to take our word as followers and worshippers of the God-man, Jesus Christ.

That is not true. It is the claim you make without any evidence.

Your approach is just like those who argue that the earth is flat. They've already made up their minds and are deaf and blind to any explanations and arguments to the contrary.

It would be a Ford with a Ferrari badge

You are the one claiming icons are idols without evidence. Idol worshippers actually believed their idols to be a physical manifestation of their so-called 'gods'. Good luck making a case that anyone does that with icons.

That is exactly the point, you have just given it a different name and expect it to be believed. Sorry, I will not take your word for it - when a person or group create a thing, plant them in their place of worship, gives them names and make them fundamental part of their religion, to me that is literal idolatry.

Like I said about the early Christians, they do not call what you are doing icon veneration, they call it idolatry.

You complain I made up my mind but it is based off what I read in Gods word and the early Christians. You guys have done nothing except be dismissive and say ''it is not'' but that is not good enough for me when weighed against strong evidence.

The car was just an example and illustration and you are right - it is something but with a different badge. Like something else we are talking about.

If anything, you guys need to prove that there is a difference between an icon and an idol, because you are arguing the affirmative on that point.

 

[The Liturgist]

As others have already point out in this thread - there were incidents where people made things and were not permitted, like the golden calf. But other times they were, like the Ark of the covenant. So what makes the difference? Simple, God commanded his people to build certain things at certain times, other times people were not commanded and were doing so purely from a sinful heart.

Indeed, but the Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholics and others are not acting from a sinful heart.

Scripture says “by their fruits ye shall know them,” and Orthodox Christians account for the majority of Christian martyrs, the majority of recent martyrs (from Communism and radical Islam), and the Roman Catholics, despite the very uncharitable things people say about them, likewise account for a very large number of martyrs, and also the majority of Christian charitable spending, with charities such as the Vincentians active in nearly every part of the US helping people regardless of religious affiliation.

Also there is the fact that icons have been instrumental in spreading the Gospel - indeed, an icon of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the famed Our Lady of Guadalupe, was directly responsible for the conversion of the Mexica from the evil Mesoamerican human sacrifice religion, which of all the diabolical forms of paganism was perhaps the most diabolical, to Christianity.

 

[prodromos]

Like I said about the early Christians, they do not call what you are doing icon veneration, they call it idolatry

You keep making this claim, but it is one you have not demonstrated. We don't call icons 'gods' as Justin Martyr describes and it is ludicrous to even suggest we consider them to be 'gods'. The people depicted in the icons are either Christ Himself, or those whom God has revealed to be among those who now stand in His presence and are fervent intercessors to Him on our behalf. They are revealed by God to be righteous men and women whose prayers are powerful and effective (James 5:16).
I'm telling you the truth, they are not 'gods'. No one believes they are, so your claims of idolatry are empty.

 

[The Liturgist]

Like I said about the early Christians, they do not call what you are doing icon veneration, they call it idolatry.

That’s false - we have archaeological evidence of second century icons in the catacombs of Rome and there was additional evidence in the house church in Dura Europos (which also featured a Jewish synagogue, also with icons in the form of fresco paintings), which were destroyed by ISIS, among many other examples of evidence of icons predating the Second Council of Nicaea.

There is also the important fact that no iconoclasm existed in the early church until the eighth century military defeats of the Byzantine Empire by the Muslims, and that iconoclasm was rejected by all ancient churches of Nicene faith that survive from the middle ages, including those which did not participate at the Second Council of Nicaea.*

*Indeed, unlike in the case of the Chalcedonians none of the six Oriental Orthodox churches was ever taken over by iconoclasts, and the scale of the problem was limited to a minor outbreak in Eastern Armenia which was swiftly suppressed by the episcopate of the Armenian Apostolic Church, a fact an Armenian friend and I like to jokingly attribute to the streamlined shape of their headgear allowing them to reach even the most remote parishes in their dioceses at supersonic velocity, since an Armenian bishop in choir dress neatly adheres to the area rule of aerodynamics for trans-sonic flight).

 

[RileyG]

Worship - veneration... Can we define...

I witnessed in Cyprus a congregant coming in the church door and kissing all the Icons before being seated.

OK or not ?

Completely fine!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Worship - veneration... Can we define...

I witnessed in Cyprus a congregant coming in the church door and kissing all the Icons before being seated.

OK or not ?

Scripture commands that the saints greet one another with a holy kiss.

Having Icons of the saints is a powerful reminder that those in Christ are alive. The Church in heaven and the Church on earth are united, in Christ, as one; and all who are in Christ have eternal life.

The Apostle says, "do not grieve as those without hope".

If those who have reposed in the Lord are with us (and they are) and we are to greet one another with a holy kiss (and we are commanded to do so), then this act is simply emphasizing the core truths and practices of our Christian faith.

Icons are potent reminders of the Communio Sanctorum, the Communion of Saints.

While the East does not recite the Apostle's Creed, the language of the Apostle's Creed remains universally Christian:

In which we confess that "we believe in ... the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints"

What is in Christ cannot die, He Himself having said, "I am the resurrection, the truth, and the life, whoever believes in Me shall never die, and even if he die, yet shall he live" In Christ there is no power of death--not even in mortal death for all who belong to Christ are with Christ, and shall, on the Last Day, be raised up in the body. Therefore we do not grieve as those without hope; but rather confess the Risen Christ who has conquered sin, death, hell, and the devil.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

As others have already point out in this thread - there were incidents where people made things and were not permitted, like the golden calf. But other times they were, like the Ark of the covenant. So what makes the difference? Simple, God commanded his people to build certain things at certain times, other times people were not commanded and were doing so purely from a sinful heart.

And who are you that you know what lay in the hearts of men?

You have yet to actually present an argument from patristic sources. Thus far you have provided a lot of bluster, but no substance.

Make your case, or admit you have nothing.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Strong in Him]

Sorry, I will not take your word for it - when a person or group create a thing, plant them in their place of worship, gives them names and make them fundamental part of their religion, to me that is literal idolatry.

To you, maybe.
But you are not God and cannot see into anyone's heart.

What reason do you have for not believing your fellow Christians - brothers and sisters in Christ - who declare that they use icons, but worship only God?

 

[The Liturgist]

That is exactly the point, you have just given it a different name and expect it to be believed. Sorry, I will not take your word for it - when a person or group create a thing, plant them in their place of worship, gives them names and make them fundamental part of their religion, to me that is literal idolatry.

That definition is so broad it would ensnare all Christian denominations. For example, your local Reformed Presbyterian Church, not known as a place tolerant of icons, even avoiding the celebration of Christmas and Pascha due to Calvinist iconoclasm, nonetheless builds churches and gives them names, and these buildings are used in worship.

If someone composes a hymn or a musical setting for a Psalm, in those denominations which practice a capella exclusive Psalmody like the RPCNA (some of these denominations also regard organs as idolatrous, although most refuse to use them for what was historically an overapplication of the “regulative principle” but which doubtless has developed, particularly in the case of those Baptists who take a generous view of salvation of Christians in other churches, into an aesthetic preference.

Likewise different people translate the Bible, give their translations names, and these are used in worship.

This definition is exceedingly broad, and also, importantly, lacks any Scriptural basis, and also fails to address the more serious kinds of idolatry in our modern society, such as the idolization of wealth, of riches and material goods, of popular preachers, particularly “celebrity pastors” associated with the Prosperity Gospel, many of whom deny the Trinity or are otherwise non-Nicene, and of celebrities, national identities and ideologies.

 

[Daniel Carlton]

That’s false - we have archaeological evidence of second century icons in the catacombs of Rome and there was additional evidence in the house church in Dura Europos (which also featured a Jewish synagogue, also with icons in the form of fresco paintings), which were destroyed by ISIS, among many other examples of evidence of icons predating the Second Council of Nicaea.

There is also the important fact that no iconoclasm existed in the early church until the eighth century military defeats of the Byzantine Empire by the Muslims, and that iconoclasm was rejected by all ancient churches of Nicene faith that survive from the middle ages, including those which did not participate at the Second Council of Nicaea.*

*Indeed, unlike in the case of the Chalcedonians none of the six Oriental Orthodox churches was ever taken over by iconoclasts, and the scale of the problem was limited to a minor outbreak in Eastern Armenia which was swiftly suppressed by the episcopate of the Armenian Apostolic Church, a fact an Armenian friend and I like to jokingly attribute to the streamlined shape of their headgear allowing them to reach even the most remote parishes in their dioceses at supersonic velocity, since an Armenian bishop in choir dress neatly adheres to the area rule of aerodynamics for trans-sonic flight).

archaeology but not written accounts.

 

[Daniel Carlton]

That definition is so broad it would ensnare all Christian denominations. For example, your local Reformed Presbyterian Church, not known as a place tolerant of icons, even avoiding the celebration of Christmas and Pascha due to Calvinist iconoclasm, nonetheless builds churches and gives them names, and these buildings are used in worship.

If someone composes a hymn or a musical setting for a Psalm, in those denominations which practice a capella exclusive Psalmody like the RPCNA (some of these denominations also regard organs as idolatrous, although most refuse to use them for what was historically an overapplication of the “regulative principle” but which doubtless has developed, particularly in the case of those Baptists who take a generous view of salvation of Christians in other churches, into an aesthetic preference.

Likewise different people translate the Bible, give their translations names, and these are used in worship.

This definition is exceedingly broad, and also, importantly, lacks any Scriptural basis, and also fails to address the more serious kinds of idolatry in our modern society, such as the idolization of wealth, of riches and material goods, of popular preachers, particularly “celebrity pastors” associated with the Prosperity Gospel, many of whom deny the Trinity or are otherwise non-Nicene, and of celebrities, national identities and ideologies.

The scripture does tell us what idolatry is in the second commandment. It is not an idol of the heart as you are implying but something that is made (graven image) and then bow to it (venerated).