Idolatry

[stone]

I've seen folks here that are unclear of what is idolatry. I'm going to define what it is, strictly from the Holy scriptures.

Idolatry has to do with idols. These are created mostly from stone, wood and precious metals. They are made into the form of statues or better known as idols. Idols can also be made into jewelry. Not implying that wearing jewelry is a form of idolatry, but that images of a god or deity can be worn as jewelry and also as decorations.

Our father becomes angry and calls to worship of anything other than he, as idolatry. We know that Jesus is the father and that he is the Holy Spirit, therefore, the worship of anything other than Jesus is Idolatry.

I'll provide a couple of scriptures to proove to those of you who say that Hinduism is not idolatry. The worship of anything, anything at all, other than Jesus is idolatry.

***

Jacob Leaves Secretly for Canaan

31 Now [a]Jacob heard the words of Laban’s sons, saying, “Jacob has taken away all that was our father’s, and from what belonged to our father he has made all this [b]wealth.”

2 Jacob saw the [c]attitude of Laban, and behold, it was not friendly toward him as formerly.

3 Then the Lord said to Jacob, “Return to the land of your fathers and to your relatives, and I will be with you.”

4 So Jacob sent and called Rachel and Leah to his flock in the field,

5 and said to them, “I see your father’s [d]attitude, that it is not friendly toward me as formerly, but the God of my father has been with me.

6 You know that I have served your father with all my strength.

7 Yet your father has cheated me and changed my wages ten times; however, God did not allow him to hurt me.

8 If he spoke thus, ‘The speckled shall be your wages,’ then all the flock brought forth speckled; and if he spoke thus, ‘The striped shall be your wages,’ then all the flock brought forth striped.

9 Thus God has taken away your father’s livestock and given them to me.

10 And it came about at the time when the flock were [e]mating that I lifted up my eyes and saw in a dream, and behold, the male goats which were [f]mating were striped, speckled, and mottled.

11 Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am.’

12 He said, ‘Lift up now your eyes and see that all the male goats which are [g]mating are striped, speckled, and mottled; for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you.

13 I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar, where you made a vow to Me; now arise, [h]leave this land, and return to the land of your birth.’”

14 Rachel and Leah said to him, “Do we still have any portion or inheritance in our father’s house?

15 Are we not reckoned by him as foreigners? For he has sold us, and has also [i]entirely consumed [j]our purchase price.

16 Surely all the wealth which God has taken away from our father belongs to us and our children; now then, do whatever God has said to you.”

17 Then Jacob arose and put his children and his wives upon camels;

18 and he drove away all his livestock and all his property which he had gathered, his acquired livestock which he had gathered in Paddan-aram, to go to the land of Canaan to his father Isaac.

19 When Laban had gone to shear his flock, then Rachel stole the [k]household idols that were her father’s.

20 And Jacob [l]deceived Laban the Aramean by not telling him that he was fleeing.

21 So he fled with all that he had; and he arose and crossed the Euphrates River, and set his face toward the hill country of Gilead.
Laban Pursues Jacob

22 When it was told Laban on the third day that Jacob had fled,

23 then he took his [m]kinsmen with him and pursued him a distance of seven days’ journey, and he overtook him in the hill country of Gilead.

24 God came to Laban the Aramean in a dream of the night and said to him, “[n]Be careful that you do not speak to Jacob either good or bad.”


25 Laban caught up with Jacob. Now Jacob had pitched his tent in the hill country, and Laban with his [o]kinsmen camped in the hill country of Gilead.

26 Then Laban said to Jacob, “What have you done [p]by deceiving me and carrying away my daughters like captives of the sword?

27 Why did you flee secretly and [q]deceive me, and did not tell me so that I might have sent you away with joy and with songs, with timbrel and with lyre;

28 and did not allow me to kiss my sons and my daughters? Now you have done foolishly.

29 It is in [r]my power to do you harm, but the God of your father spoke to me last night, saying, ‘[s]Be careful not to speak either good or bad to Jacob.’

30 Now you have indeed gone away because you longed greatly for your father’s house; but why did you steal my gods?”

31 Then Jacob replied to Laban, “Because I was afraid, for I thought that you would take your daughters from me by force.

32 The one with whom you find your gods shall not live; in the presence of our [t]kinsmen [u]point out what is yours [v]among my belongings and take it for yourself.” For Jacob did not know that Rachel had stolen them.


33 So Laban went into Jacob’s tent and into Leah’s tent and into the tent of the two maids, but he did not find them. Then he went out of Leah’s tent and entered Rachel’s tent.

34 Now Rachel had taken the [w]household idols and put them in the camel’s saddle, and she sat on them. And Laban felt through all the tent but did not find them.

35 She said to her father, “Let not my lord be angry that I cannot rise before you, for the manner of women is upon me.” So he searched but did not find the [x]household idols.

36 Then Jacob became angry and contended with Laban; and Jacob said to Laban, “What is my transgression? What is my sin that you have hotly pursued me?

37 Though you have felt through all my goods, what have you found of all your household goods? Set it here before my [y]kinsmen and your [z]kinsmen, that they may decide between us two.

38 These twenty years I have been with you; your ewes and your female goats have not miscarried, nor have I eaten the rams of your flocks.

39 That which was torn of beasts I did not bring to you; I bore the loss of it myself. You required it of my hand whether stolen by day or stolen by night.

40 Thus I was: by day the [aa]heat consumed me and the frost by night, and my sleep fled from my eyes.

41 These twenty years I have been in your house; I served you fourteen years for your two daughters and six years for your flock, and you changed my wages ten times.

42 If the God of my father, the God of Abraham, and the fear of Isaac, had not been for me, surely now you would have sent me away empty-handed. God has seen my affliction and the toil of my hands, so He rendered judgment last night.”

***

I find it horrible to know that after all that Jacob did for Rachel, that she turned out to be an idolatress. It's no wonder her life was shortened by the lord and not allowed to enter into the land that Jacob would live out most of his life.

 

[MKJ]

This seems to raise more questions than it answers.

It seems to suggest that something that is immaterial cannot be an idol, which is questionable and not how we usually understand the idea of idolotry..

It does not define worship, which is a rather important point.

It does not address how we would define idolatry within pantheism, which you would need to do in order to accuse Hindus of idolatry. The definition you give would suggest that it is not, since in Hinduism worship of images IS worshiping the Father.

It also raises some interesting and difficult questions about how we as Christians understand things like sainthood and relics, where we believe the individuals have become divinized and so reverence that Gods divinity in them. How is that different than what Hindus do when they worship or reverence God in material things. What is the distinction made there between worship and reverencing something and acknowledging material expressions of the Divine.

Your last paragraph suggests that any non-Christian religious system would be idolatry, which is absurd - some non-Christian religions have much more strict rules against idolatry than Christians do.

 

[stone]

This seems to raise more questions than it answers.

It seems to suggest that something that is immaterial cannot be an idol, which is questionable and not how we usually understand the idea of idolotry..

adjective

of no essential consequence;

unimportant.not pertinent; irrelevant.
3. not material; incorporeal; spiritual
*

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

What is highlighted in red speaks to not make an image of what is in heaven above, that would meet your incorporeal needs.

It does not define worship, which is a rather important point.

Genesis 24:
26 Then the man bowed low and worshiped the Lord. 27 He said, “Blessed be the Lord, the God of my master Abraham, who has not forsaken His lovingkindness and His truth toward my master; as for me, the Lord has guided me in the way to the house of my master’s brothers.”

Worship is defined as speaking to the Lord in prayer and in spoken words.

It does not address how we would define idolatry within pantheism, which you would need to do in order to accuse Hindus of idolatry.

Isaiah 44:
6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
7 ‘Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;
Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
From the time that I established the ancient nation.
And let them declare to them the things that are coming
And the events that are going to take place.
8 ‘Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And you are My witnesses.
Is there any God besides Me,
Or is there any other Rock?
I know of none.’”
The Folly of Idolatry

9 Those who fashion a graven image are all of them futile, and their precious things are of no profit; even their own witnesses fail to see or know, so that they will be put to shame.

10 Who has fashioned a god or cast an idol to no profit?

11 Behold, all his companions will be put to shame, for the craftsmen themselves are mere men. Let them all assemble themselves, let them stand up, let them tremble, let them together be put to shame.

12 The man shapes iron into a cutting tool and does his work over the coals, fashioning it with hammers and working it with his strong arm. He also gets hungry and his strength fails; he drinks no water and becomes weary.


13 Another shapes wood, he extends a measuring line; he outlines it with red chalk. He works it with planes and outlines it with a compass, and makes it like the form of a man, like the beauty of man, so that it may sit in a house.


14 Surely he cuts cedars for himself, and takes a cypress or an oak and raises it for himself among the trees of the forest. He plants a fir, and the rain makes it grow.


15 Then it becomes something for a man to burn, so he takes one of them and warms himself; he also makes a fire to bake bread. He also makes a god and worships it; he makes it a graven image and falls down before it.


16 Half of it he burns in the fire; over this half he eats meat as he roasts a roast and is satisfied. He also warms himself and says, “Aha! I am warm, I have seen the fire.”


17 But the rest of it he makes into a god, his graven image. He falls down before it and worships; he also prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god.”


18 They do not know, nor do they understand, for He has smeared over their eyes so that they cannot see and their hearts so that they cannot comprehend.


19 No one recalls, nor is there knowledge or understanding to say, “I have burned half of it in the fire and also have baked bread over its coals. I roast meat and eat it. Then I make the rest of it into an abomination, I fall down before a block of wood!”

20 He feeds on ashes; a deceived heart has turned him aside. And he cannot deliver himself, nor say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”

The definition you give would suggest that it is not, since in Hinduism worship of images IS worshiping the Father.

Mathew 12:
The Unpardonable Sin

30 He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.


31 “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.


32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

It also raises some interesting and difficult questions about how we as Christians understand things like sainthood and relics, where we believe the individuals have become divinized and so reverence that Gods divinity in them. How is that different than what Hindus do when they worship or reverence God in material things. What is the distinction made there between worship and reverencing something and acknowledging material expressions of the Divine.

Romans 8:27
and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Your last paragraph suggests that any non-Christian religious system would be idolatry, which is absurd - some non-Christian religions have much more strict rules against idolatry than Christians do.

What is absurd is that you equate Hinuism and their idol worshipping to the same as worshiping Jesus. That, my dear is blasphemy in one form against the Holy Spirit.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Having dated a 'former' Hindu - they have gods - and worship them.

 

[Colin]

We know that Jesus is the father and that he is the Holy Spirit,

I am unclear as to what you mean by these words .

 

[MKJ]

adjective

of no essential consequence;

unimportant.not pertinent; irrelevant.
3. not material; incorporeal; spiritual
*

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

What is highlighted in red speaks to not make an image of what is in heaven above, that would meet your incorporeal needs.




Genesis 24:
26 Then the man bowed low and worshiped the Lord. 27 He said, “Blessed be the Lord, the God of my master Abraham, who has not forsaken His lovingkindness and His truth toward my master; as for me, the Lord has guided me in the way to the house of my master’s brothers.”

Worship is defined as speaking to the Lord in prayer and in spoken words.



Isaiah 44:
6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
7 ‘Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;
Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
From the time that I established the ancient nation.
And let them declare to them the things that are coming
And the events that are going to take place.
8 ‘Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And you are My witnesses.
Is there any God besides Me,
Or is there any other Rock?
I know of none.’”
The Folly of Idolatry

9 Those who fashion a graven image are all of them futile, and their precious things are of no profit; even their own witnesses fail to see or know, so that they will be put to shame.

10 Who has fashioned a god or cast an idol to no profit?

11 Behold, all his companions will be put to shame, for the craftsmen themselves are mere men. Let them all assemble themselves, let them stand up, let them tremble, let them together be put to shame.

12 The man shapes iron into a cutting tool and does his work over the coals, fashioning it with hammers and working it with his strong arm. He also gets hungry and his strength fails; he drinks no water and becomes weary.


13 Another shapes wood, he extends a measuring line; he outlines it with red chalk. He works it with planes and outlines it with a compass, and makes it like the form of a man, like the beauty of man, so that it may sit in a house.


14 Surely he cuts cedars for himself, and takes a cypress or an oak and raises it for himself among the trees of the forest. He plants a fir, and the rain makes it grow.


15 Then it becomes something for a man to burn, so he takes one of them and warms himself; he also makes a fire to bake bread. He also makes a god and worships it; he makes it a graven image and falls down before it.


16 Half of it he burns in the fire; over this half he eats meat as he roasts a roast and is satisfied. He also warms himself and says, “Aha! I am warm, I have seen the fire.”


17 But the rest of it he makes into a god, his graven image. He falls down before it and worships; he also prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god.”


18 They do not know, nor do they understand, for He has smeared over their eyes so that they cannot see and their hearts so that they cannot comprehend.


19 No one recalls, nor is there knowledge or understanding to say, “I have burned half of it in the fire and also have baked bread over its coals. I roast meat and eat it. Then I make the rest of it into an abomination, I fall down before a block of wood!”

20 He feeds on ashes; a deceived heart has turned him aside. And he cannot deliver himself, nor say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”




Mathew 12:
The Unpardonable Sin

30 He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.


31 “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.


32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.






Romans 8:27
and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.





What is absurd is that you equate Hinuism and their idol worshipping to the same as worshiping Jesus. That, my dear is blasphemy in one form against the Holy Spirit.

Uh huh.

 

[NaughtyNinja]

Bowing to an idol or praying to it is idolatry. That is all and it cannot be Biblically supported. This is why there is not even a single statue in my church. Nobody bows to an idol or faces a statue of our all powerful creator.
Saints are not deities nor should they be worshipped.
Please provide evidence in Bible where saints intercede our prayers. How Mary gave birth to god when god created her before she even existed.
These issues are just shunned by Catholic church despite how bad they look. The illogical concepts are immense and often blasphemous.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Statues arent idols - and i suggest you use caution in OBOB - the Catholic forum - who respectfully know the ancient synagogues used icons, God used icons on the Ark, and the illiterate of the earlier Church used staues to understand the Bible.

Praying is not worship. Worship doesnt mean praying or bowing either actually.
Worship is giving all praise and glory to God. [or whatever idol someone may have - if it is not God our Lord]

 

[WarriorAngel]

If bowing was idolatry - Lot would have died in S&G...bowing to angels.

 

[NaughtyNinja]

If bowing was idolatry - Lot would have died in S&G...bowing to angels.

Last I heard an angel was not an idol.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Last I heard an angel was not an idol.

Angels aren't divine either.

A) Icons, statues, saints, etc are not worshiped, they're venerated. Also, they're not venerated because of something they themselves did, but rather the completed work of Christ in their lives.

Also, to add onto the subject of veneration, venerating a Saint is no different than saluting the flag, to borrow an analogy from an Orthodox priest that I once heard. In the case of the flag, we're not actually saluting that piece of cloth waving in the wind, but we're honoring and revering what the flag represents - our country. In the same vein, when we venerate an icon of a Saint, we're revering Christ because he took that human being and throughout their life and through their willingness to completely submit to him, he perfected them.

Venerate: regard with great respect; revere
Worship: the feeling of adoration for a deity

B) Revelation 5:8 paints a picture of those in the presence of God offering up prayers to him. It's by his power that they're allowed to hear prayers, and intercede on others behalf. It's no different than you walking up to somebody in your church and asking for their prayers, the Saints are no more dead than the people in your church - they're alive in Christ.

C) Mary is the Theotokos, the Mother of God because she gave birth to God in the flesh. If you deny that she birthed God then you're denying that Christ was fully God and fully man. Yes, God is eternal, he's always existed, but because God the Son united with humanity in the flesh we say that Mary is the Mother of God. Therefore, calling Mary the Theotokos (Mother of God) is not so much an elevation of her as it is an affirmation that God came in the flesh in the person of Jesus Christ and that he was both 100% God and 100% man.

D) They're not "shunned" at all, they're legitimate and highly fruitful practices of Ancient Christianity, aka the Catholic Church.

*My Catholic friends, if I'm off in my description or explanation of anything, feel free to correct me. I'm still working to grasp Catholic theology.

----

Lastly, you may want to be wary of posting as you have been in a Congregational Forum. There's specific rules to follow when posting in someone else's congregational forum such as this (One Bread, One Body - Catholics).

You're welcome to post in fellowship and ask questions, but you can't debate or teach contrary to Catholicism. If you wish, you can take it to another part of the forum such as General Theology.

Congregational Forum Restrictions, Christian Only Forums, and Off-Topic posts
Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

​

Here.

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers

 

[Gnarwhal]

Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers

Thanks for sharing that.

 

[stone]

I am unclear as to what you mean by these words .

From the catechism:

232

Christians are baptised "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Before receving the sacrament, they respond to a three part question when asked to confess the Father, the Son, and the Spirit: "I do." "The faith of all Christians rests on the Trinity."

 

[stone]

Bowing to an idol or praying to it is idolatry. That is all and it cannot be Biblically supported. This is why there is not even a single statue in my church. Nobody bows to an idol or faces a statue of our all powerful creator.
Saints are not deities nor should they be worshipped.
Please provide evidence in Bible where saints intercede our prayers. How Mary gave birth to god when god created her before she even existed.
These issues are just shunned by Catholic church despite how bad they look. The illogical concepts are immense and often blasphemous.

Post 11 is a good answer.

 

[stone]

If bowing was idolatry - Lot would have died in S&G...bowing to angels.

I've searched through many of the passages in the old testament and almost everytime an angel appears before a human, they bow. They are always thankful to leave the encounter with their lives after being face to face with an angel of the Lord. Sometimes, when man bows to an angel, the angel replied to stand up, for I too am a servent of the Lord. When Moses aproached the burning bush, it's written that he bowed and that the angel of the Lord spoke, the Father spoke through the angel, the burning bush, to Moses.

Lot did not bow to worship, but out of fear of the Lord for his life. He treated them hospitably and with kindness and was humble and not proud, which is dispised by God.

 

[stone]

from the catechism:

2112

The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver, gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them." God, however, is the "living God" who gives life and intervenes in history.

 

[MKJ]

If you want to think about idolatry, you need to actually try and apply reason. The things that have been said here are not actually consistent with each other, and they come to absurd and unfounded conclusions.

Statues are not always idols, but they can be. Just because you see statues or other physical objects used, does not mean that something is idolatry.

It is also possible to have idolatry without using physical objects. What that means is that even if you do not see the use of physical objects, there could be idolatry.

Unless you have a clear idea what it means to worship, or reverence, and so on, you will have no way to say whether or not a particular person is doing so in a way that is idolatrous or not.

The fact that a religion is non-christian, or polytheistic, does not necessarily mean that it is also idolatrous. That is confusing two different kinds of errors. The fact that a religion is pantheistic does not mean that it is idolatrous - that is also confusing different kinds of errors. To determine the kind of error means understanding what is being done within the context of that system. The ancient Greeks, for example, seemed outwardly to worship many gods, and to use statues. But it would not necessarily be correct to say that they were really polytheistic nor that they were idolatrous in their use of statues, as their reasons for those practices do not clearly meet the definitions of those terms.

Sloppy thinking does not illuminate anything.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I've searched through many of the passages in the old testament and almost everytime an angel appears before a human, they bow. They are always thankful to leave the encounter with their lives after being face to face with an angel of the Lord. Sometimes, when man bows to an angel, the angel replied to stand up, for I too am a servent of the Lord. When Moses aproached the burning bush, it's written that he bowed and that the angel of the Lord spoke, the Father spoke through the angel, the burning bush, to Moses.

Lot did not bow to worship, but out of fear of the Lord for his life. He treated them hospitably and with kindness and was humble and not proud, which is dispised by God.

Bowing is reverence - humans also bowed before kings [secular]

I dont bow to statues - i have bowed before the Tabernachle.

But if i were to bow 'in front of' a statue - its not the icon itself - but the holiness it REPRESENTS - that i revere.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I have an interesting example of idolatry in our day - there are statues of 'cows' in India - which are revered for themselves 'being' gods.

Ok, back in the early 90's or late 80's [?] - these particular statues were 'drinking' milk - which caused quite a stir for the Hindu's in India.
I did see it happen via the 'show' i watched...
My thinking was 'an angel of light' kind of thing going on - and these ppl literally believed those idols were gods... and it 'concreted' it for them [sorry for the pun]

Unlike say - if a statue were to weep blood - we see it as an icon being used for the purpose as a message from Heaven to convert and stop blaspheming God in our dark times.
Not that the statue itself is a god.

Big distinctions. Iconoclasts live on.