IDF vs Nezbollah: An objective analysis

[gwynedd1]

If he did it in Israel he could be arrested...

http://www.adl.org/special_reports/jews4jesus/christian_responses.asp

It is not too popular here either.

 

[gwynedd1]

I'd like to see your proof of rob, rape and genocide by the Israeli's. The word genocide means "The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group." Where did you get that Israel is trying to commit genocide, and against what nation, race, political or ethnic group?

"Israel has no right to defend itself as it has no right to exist"?? Are you serious? What gives you the right to make such a claim?

It so happens that Judaism is still under the old covenant. Genocide was proscribed for Amalek. Genocide is part of the faith. Under God's direction this may indeed be just. What can the clay say to the potter? However without God the intepretation can become quite sinister. I suspect the Frankists consider all who resist them the seed of Amalek. I am sure Israel has these elements as Satan is allowed to turn God's messangers into his foot soldiers.
Genocide is in the scripture....
In Christianity this is complety forbidden as is any racial supremacy.

It is tempting to use force. As Israel and Hezbolllah fight it out and capture/kidnap one another consider the following:

Rev 13

9] If any man have an ear, let him hear.
[10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.



http://headheeb.blogmosis.com/archives/020255.html

 

[Poke]

It so happens that Judaism is still under the old covenant.

There is only one covenant. Non-Christians are excluded from that covenant. "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Jesus is the fulfillment of that covenant, not a new covenant.

Jews (so-called Jews) hardly even pretend to follow Hebrew scripture. And, from the Christian perspective, Jews outright reject God and the teachings of Hebrew scriptures.

 

[Treppers]

I'd like to see your proof of rob, rape and genocide by the Israeli's. The word genocide means "The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group." Where did you get that Israel is trying to commit genocide, and against what nation, race, political or ethnic group?

"Israel has no right to defend itself as it has no right to exist"?? Are you serious? What gives you the right to make such a claim?

It so happens that Judaism is still under the old covenant. Genocide was proscribed for Amalek. Genocide is part of the faith. Under God's direction this may indeed be just. What can the clay say to the potter? However without God the intepretation can become quite sinister...

Morgaine, that definition of genocide gets the gist of it, but needs to be clarified. I'm not sure who the claim that "Israel has no right to exist comes from," but I join you in disagreeing with them. The fact of the matter is that Israel, throughout vast tracts of its history, has not been defending itself but rather attacking others and occupying land.

Moving onto gwynedd1's quote, he is quite correct that God commanded genocide (a fact that has been the biggest trouble in my journey with Christ), just contrast 1 Samuel 15:3 and the Article 2 of Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide:

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Article 2[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](a) Killing members of the group; [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.[/FONT]​

As can be seen, if any of the conditions (a) to (e) are meant, then it's a diagnosis of genocide. The highlighted part of 1 Samuel 15:3 certainly meets (a), presumably (b), certainly (c), certainly (d) (by extension - how can the people of Amalek have births if even the children and babies are slaughtered?) - but not (e), since all the children and babies are dead, and so can't be transferred.

I would not claim that the modern State of Israel has engaged in genocide, though I'll confidently claim that the Zionists engaged in ethnic cleansing, massacre and rape during the formation of Israel in 1948 and around this period. I make such a claim with confidence because it's what Israel's leading historian on the period says, Benny Morris (Jewish), let me quote him for you. The quote is from his book Righteous Victims:

Deir Yassin is remembered not as a military operation, but rather for the atrocities committed by the IZL and LHI troops during and immediately after the drawn-out battle: Whole families were riddled with bullets and grenade fragments and buried when houses were blown up on top of them; men, women and children were mowed down as they emerged from houses; individuals were taken aside and shot. At the end of the battle, groups of old men, women and children were trucked through West Jerusalem's streets in a kind of 'victory parade' and then dumped in (Arab) East Jerusalem. According to Jerusalem Shai commander Levy, ... 'the conquest of the village was carried out with great cruelty.Whole families - women, old people, children - were killed, and there were piles of dead [in various places]. Some of the prisoners moved to places of incarceration, including women and children, were murdered viciously by their captors.'

How about some more quotes from Israel's leading historian on the Palestinian refugee problem?

One commander ordered a sapper to put two old women in a certain house... and to blow up the house with them. The sapper refused... The commander then ordered his men to put in the old women and the evil deed was done. One soldier boasted that he had raped a woman and then shot her. One woman, a newborn baby in her arms, was employed to clean the courtyard where the soldiers ate. She worked a day or two. In the end they shot her and the baby.

...

... cultured officers had turned into base murderers and this not in the heat of battle... but out of a system of expulsion and destruction. The less Arabs remained - the better. This principle is the political motor for the expulsions and the strocities.

...
Two of the three major Arab massaces of Jews... were revenge attacks triggered by Jewish atrocities against Arabs. On the other hand, Jewish atrocities against Arabs... were generally unconnected to or lacked any previou,s Arab provocation.

...

In general, in most cases the final and decisive precipitant to flight was Haganah, IZL, LHI or IDF attack or the inhabitants' fear of attack

In his updated study of the Palestinian refugees he documented "20-odd cases of massacre" by Zionist forces during the war, frequent random killings of Palestinians "several dozen cases of rape, a crime views with particular horror in Arab and Muslim societies." The cases of raoe Morris documented he said represented the "tip of the iceberg."

 

[gwynedd1]

There is only one covenant. Non-Christians are excluded from that covenant. "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Jesus is the fulfillment of that covenant, not a new covenant.

Jews (so-called Jews) hardly even pretend to follow Hebrew scripture. And, from the Christian perspective, Jews outright reject God and the teachings of Hebrew scriptures.

It is indeed a new covenant.

Abraham is the father of many nations. Unfortunately the Scofield reference bible teaches falsely.


Gen 17
[2] And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
[3] And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
[4] As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
[5] Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
[6] And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee
7] And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
...
[9] And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
...
[13] He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
[14] And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Disobedience to God breaks the covenant.

What of the seed of Ishmael?

[20] And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.


Israel is the fig tree that gave us Chritianity and the Pharisee. Who is more good ? Who is more evil? There is none more good or more evil than the fig tree.
Jer 24

[1] The LORD shewed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the LORD, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon.
[2] One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.
[3] Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.
[4] Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
[5] Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.
[6] For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
[7] And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
[8] And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:
[9] And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.
[10] And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.

The broken covenant:
Zech 11
10] And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it assunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
[11] And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
[12] And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

God's changing covenant....

Jer 31
[30] But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
[31] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
[32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
[33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The fig tree....
Luke 13
[6] He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
[7] Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
[8] And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
[9] And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Matt 21
[19] And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
[20] And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
[21] Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Matt 3
[8] Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
[9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
[10] And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Who are the children of Abraham?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There is only one covenant. Non-Christians are excluded from that covenant. "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Jesus is the fulfillment of that covenant, not a new covenant.

Jews (so-called Jews) hardly even pretend to follow Hebrew scripture. And, from the Christian perspective, Jews outright reject God and the teachings of Hebrew scriptures.

It is indeed a new covenant.

Abraham is the father of many nations. Unfortunately the Scofield reference bible teaches false

Matt 3
[8] Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
[9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
[10] And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire:

Who are the children of Abraham?

Of course it is Brand New!!!

But if you look at even how the Messianics view it, they say it is just a "renewal" which is hogwash. Thoughts?

Isaiah 65:17 For, lo, I am creating New heavens, and a new earth, [SIZE=+2]chadash

[/SIZE] Jeremiah 31:31 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have CUT with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a New covenant, [SIZE=+2]chadash

[/SIZE] 2319 chadash khaw-dawsh' from 2318; new:--fresh, new thing.

 

[gwynedd1]

Of course it is Brand New!!!

But if you look at even how the Messianics view it, they say it is just a "renewal" which is hogwash. Thoughts?

Isaiah 65:17 For, lo, I am creating New heavens, and a new earth, [SIZE=+2]chadash

[/SIZE] Jeremiah 31:31 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have CUT with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a New covenant, [SIZE=+2]chadash

[/SIZE] 2319 chadash khaw-dawsh' from 2318; new:--fresh, new thing.

Yes quite right but it is similiar in one way. We may foolishly break it in arrogance.

Rom 11
18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

 

[ContraMundum]

Jews (so-called Jews) hardly even pretend to follow Hebrew scripture. And, from the Christian perspective, Jews outright reject God and the teachings of Hebrew scriptures.

Two false statements in one paragraph, the first another anti-semitic comment from you. What's with that hate?

Jewish people are like any other religious group- some follow the teachings faithfully and others do not. Your comment that "Jews hardly pretend to follow Hebrew scripture" is slanderous and shows you to be a bitter little man. You hate Jews. It's so obvious. I can understand other posters here simply confounding Jews with Zionists and so forth or overstating things, but you obviously hate Jews, and you need to get right with God about that.

I have members of my family who are amazingly faithful to the Hebrew scriptures, and others who aren't. The thing is, they are faithful according to how they understand and are taught the scriptures. Christians have always understood that faithful Jews do not "outright reject God", but rather, simply reject Jesus as Messiah and God, so you're statement that Christians believe that Jews "outright reject God" is nonsense and is also unscriptural. Rom 11

 

[gwynedd1]

Two false statements in one paragraph, the first another anti-semitic comment from you. What's with that hate?

Jewish people are like any other religious group- some follow the teachings faithfully and others do not. Your comment that "Jews hardly pretend to follow Hebrew scripture" is slanderous and shows you to be a bitter little man. You hate Jews. It's so obvious. I can understand other posters here simply confounding Jews with Zionists and so forth or overstating things, but you obviously hate Jews, and you need to get right with God about that.

I have members of my family who are amazingly faithful to the Hebrew scriptures, and others who aren't. The thing is, they are faithful according to how they understand and are taught the scriptures. Christians have always understood that faithful Jews do not "outright reject God", but rather, simply reject Jesus as Messiah and God, so you're statement that Christians believe that Jews "outright reject God" is nonsense and is also unscriptural. Rom 11

Unfortunately rejecting Christ is rejecting God. Jesus is God.

That aside I have dear friends that do not know Christ and it is painful. It is obvious to me you love the Jews as they are even your family. Extend that love beyond and to even your enemies and the real enemies will reveal themselves.

Eph 6
12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
[13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
[14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
[15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;


If anyone calls for war you know where its from. If Israel had done nothing when the troops were captured, would more Jews be alive today?
I am saddened in more ways than one with those who do not see the Rothschild pattern of perpetual war and debt. It makes it easy to spread the gospel of peace and to see the absolute futilty of violence and retribution.
God bless you and your family and may you find peace.

 

[Loukuss]

They are bloodthirsty savages that deserve every bit of violence that is directed at them, and I hope they get it, with interest compounded.

This coming from a christian man???
Do the christians who support Hezbollah deserve this too?

 

[MezzaMorta]

I support the Hezbollah because what have they done to not get my support as someone who has much family in Lebanon and whos homeland in a distant past was Lebanon.

Hezbollah has always said that Israel is the enemy of the Lebanese people. Not just the Lebanese Muslims, but the Lebanese Christians, the Lebanese Druze, the Lebanese Jew, the Lebanese Atheists…. All Lebanese people.

The Christians or Lebanon did not lessen, when the war broke out we took Israel as our ally. We thought of them as our friend. But when every anything went wrong in the war and they blamed us we should have realized they were just out for themselves.

Not Israel our so called ally is bombing out cities, killing our people, targeting our children. Israel is not our friend, they are friends of no one but themselves and their greed for power, land and money.

Hezbollah fights to free the Lebanese people, to protect Lebanese land and to bring a end to the Zionist entity.

Israel is the enemy of not just the Lebanese people but all people of this earth.

So I say “wa alhamu Hezbolla” because they were right all along.

 

[ContraMundum]

I support the Hezbollah because what have they done to not get my support as someone who has much family in Lebanon and whos homeland in a distant past was Lebanon.

Fair enough...but you do know they're Muslims, right? You also know they bombed a Jewish community centre in an unprovoked attack in Buenos Aires in 1994, among other attacks in Argentina.
How did that attack liberate Lebanon?

Hezbollah has always said that Israel is the enemy of the Lebanese people. Not just the Lebanese Muslims, but the Lebanese Christians, the Lebanese Druze, the Lebanese Jew, the Lebanese Atheists…. All Lebanese people.

How do you know Hezbollah is right? What if they provoke Lebanon to be attacked by a superior force? How is that good for the Lebanese people? You can't honestly tell me that kidnapping Israeli soldiers was good for peaceful Lebanon.

Let me tell you- Hezbollah care about no one but Hezbollah- even their social services mean nothing if they provoke attacks on their people.

Hezbollah fights to free the Lebanese people,

Free the Lebanese people from whom? The last country to occupy Lebanon was Syria, Hezbollah's ally. When Syria left the people were happy. Now, Hezbollah provokes Israel and that frees Lebanon how?

to protect Lebanese land and to bring a end to the Zionist entity.

...but Lebanese land is not under threat....and the elimination of Israel requires an invasion of Israel- not an act of self-defense. That alone makes Hezbollah an agressive force, not a defensive force.

Israel is the enemy of not just the Lebanese people but all people of this earth.

Wow.....ever read the Bible? Methinks you might be in the wrong religion, 'cos nothing happens without His consent on this planet.

So I say “wa alhamu Hezbolla” because they were right all along.

Right about what? Nothing it seems. The Muslim Jihadists from Hezbollah are not your friend. They hate your religion and merely tolerate it for now- look at their big brother Iran and take note- that's the kind of Lebanon they want- complete with "moral police".

Lebanon was peaceful after occupying forces from Syria left, until some bozos from Hezbollah decided to kidnap some Israeli soldiers. Big mistake. How did that serve Lebanon's interests? Did the Lebanese people vote for that? Did they commission that action? I don't think so. Hezbollah did it and Lebanese people paid the price.

...and I always thought Catholics were supposed to be more serious about their faith than their nationality- no Catholic I know would support Muslim Jihadists.

Young lady, you really need to think about what kind of garbage they are telling you.

 

[gwynedd1]

I support the Hezbollah because what have they done to not get my support as someone who has much family in Lebanon and whos homeland in a distant past was Lebanon.

Hezbollah has always said that Israel is the enemy of the Lebanese people. Not just the Lebanese Muslims, but the Lebanese Christians, the Lebanese Druze, the Lebanese Jew, the Lebanese Atheists…. All Lebanese people.

The Christians or Lebanon did not lessen, when the war broke out we took Israel as our ally. We thought of them as our friend. But when every anything went wrong in the war and they blamed us we should have realized they were just out for themselves.

Not Israel our so called ally is bombing out cities, killing our people, targeting our children. Israel is not our friend, they are friends of no one but themselves and their greed for power, land and money.

Hezbollah fights to free the Lebanese people, to protect Lebanese land and to bring a end to the Zionist entity.

Israel is the enemy of not just the Lebanese people but all people of this earth.

So I say “wa alhamu Hezbolla” because they were right all along.

Hezbollah is not a friend to the Lebanese. Any Christian that supports bloodshed is even worse than the Zionists. It is a false teaching.


Rom 12

17: Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18: If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19: Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20: Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21: Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

If Hezbollah were to serve cold drinks to the Israeli soldiers Lebanon would be saved.