Identity Chrisis: Slander

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Closing thread for staff review.

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pat34lee said:

Do you know there is a difference between physical Israel and spiritual Israel? One is determined by bloodlines, and as you said, most are not believers. The other is the body of believers, out of all nations. Yeshua is the root. Israel is the olive tree.

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The patriarchs are the root.

pat34lee said:

Do you know there is a difference between physical Israel and spiritual Israel?

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Yes. One is real, and the other is imaginary.

pat34lee said:

One is determined by bloodlines, and as you said, most are not believers.

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Correct.

pat34lee said:

The other is the body of believers, out of all nations.

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This is imaginary. This group is never identified as Israel. This group gets grafted into Israel.

mishkan said:

Yes. One is real, and the other is imaginary.



Correct.



This is imaginary. This group is never identified as Israel. This group gets grafted into Israel.

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There is only one Israel. The traditions of Christianity and Judaism over the last 2 millennia have attempted to obscure that fact as it applies to those grafted into Israel.

There is not a replacement for Israel to be found in scripture. There is only Israel.

pat34lee said:

Do you know there is a difference between physical Israel and spiritual Israel? One is determined by bloodlines, and as you said, most are not believers. The other is the body of believers, out of all nations. Yeshua is the root. Israel is the olive tree.

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Israel is truly complex - and it is myth whenever people take the concept of being added into the CommonWealth of Israel/assuming they are "Israel" in the same sense as Ethnic Jews. For the Ethnic Jews are descendants of Israel reaching out to the Unsaved people of Israel - while the other people are sanctified via identifying with God's Israel (of which the Ethnic/Saved Jews are apart of ) - no different than being Jamaica/being Jamaican in the British Empire (as it was a CommonWealth) and identifying with the Empire and yet still retaining your cultural norms.















Scriptures make a distinction between being an ethnic Jew (i.e., one born Jewish) and one who is considered to be a member of she'arit Yisrael, the faithful remnant of Israel. It seems logical to note that a person can be 1) outside of relationship to Israel altogether (i.e., a Gentile); 2) within ethnic Israel by virtue of birth (to a Jewish mother); or 3) within both ethnic Israel (i.e., of Jewish lineage) and part of the faithful remnant (as a Jew who trusts the God of Israel). I'm thankful for others who've taken the time to point out these distinctions as important because there are many who oversimplify the matter and confuse ethnic Israel with the "remnant of Israel chosen by the grace of God" (Rom. 11:5) - despite the fact that the Remnant of Israel is a sovereignly chosen subset of ethnic Israel that has been faithfully preserved by the LORD over the centuries. Its existence is evidenced in the Old Testament Scriptures as is seen in the following cases:

• Isaac was chosen over Ishmael (Gen. 17:19)
• Jacob was chosen over Esau (Gen. 28:13-15)
• Joseph was chosen over his other brothers (Gen. 45:7)
• Israel was chosen (as a nation) at Sinai and a remnant preserved after the sin with the Golden Calf (Ex. 32)
• Caleb and Joshua were chosen among all those of the desert generation to enter into the Promised Land (Num. 14:38)
• Elijah was told that God preserved 7,000 faithful during apostasy (1 Kings 19:18)
• Ezekiel was told that a remnant would be preserved from the northern kingdom after their captivity (Ezek. 37:19)
• The returning exiles from Babylon were chosen (Zech. 8:5)

And within the NT (as Hebrew4Christians notes well) it is further evidenced repeatedly:

• John the Baptist distinguished between those merely born Jewish and those who are part of remnant Israel (Matt. 3:9)
• God chose a remnant of Israel to receive the Messiah (Rom. 11:5)
• After the destruction of the Temple by the Romans, God preserved a remnant of Israel which has continued to this day.
• Paul spoke of the remnant of Israel chosen by God's grace (Rom. 2:28-29; 9:27, 11:5) and the one "New Man" composed of Jews and grafted in Gentiles (Eph. 2:15).
• During the coming Great Tribulation, God will preserve a remnant of Israel (Rev. 7:4).

It seems more than Biblical to understand that Remnant Theology is the best way for understanding the scriptures - as Remnant Theology understands that the Church is "grafted in" or "in-placed" within remnant Israel, and not the other way around -- i.e., remnant Israel is NOT understood to be placed within the Church

Shimshon said:

My fathers came from Poland in the beginning of the 20th century. They were persecuted out of the country for being Jewish. In fact, I may be going back this year to serve in a ministry for my/our ancestors.

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Dude, praying your trip would be refreshing and a blessing as you get to connect with your ancestral roots and serve the people whom you hailed from What an amazing opportunity...for however long or short it may be.

talmidim said:

There is only one Israel. The traditions of Christianity and Judaism over the last 2 millennia have attempted to obscure that fact as it applies to those grafted into Israel.

There is not a replacement for Israel to be found in scripture. There is only Israel.

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There is only one Israel, which is made up of the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and those who have converted.

Gentile means not Jewish, or not children of Israel. In the NT, the Gentiles are told to remain as Gentiles. Why? Because Gentiles coming to the Messiah are prophetic and therefore a sign of the Messiah and a confirmation that Yeshua is the Messiah, so believing Gentiles are very very very important.

With Jews and Gentiles united in Messiah, what that means is that Jews and Gentiles are New Creations. Something entirely new. Spirit filled and of like Spirit all called, equally. And are known as the sons of God. Saints. etc.

The New Covenant is a better covenant, with higher and greater promises. Something the nation of Israel longed for but as a nation did not obtain due to lack of faith in Yeshua. Instead, some Gentiles and some Jews obtained the better covenant and are now one in Messiah.

Gxg (G²);62199321 said:

Israel is truly complex - and it is myth whenever people take the concept of being added into the CommonWealth of Israel/assuming they are "Israel" in the same sense as Ethnic Jews. For the Ethnic Jews are descendants of Israel reaching out to the Unsaved people of Israel - while the other people are sanctified via identifying with God's Israel (of which the Ethnic/Saved Jews are apart of ) - no different than being Jamaica/being Jamaican in the British Empire (as it was a CommonWealth) and identifying with the Empire and yet still retaining your cultural norms.

Basic concept taught within Jewish Christianity/early Messianic Judaism for ages - and Way too much in Messianic Judaism on the fringe elements - sadly by people in certain circles of Two House as well as One Law Zealots - have obscured that when not focusing on the whole of God's Word and understanding the issue

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So explain the concept of actual adoption in ancient Israel. We do so need your perspective.

If a leader, a prominent man among the tribes, a prince of the tribe of Judah decides to adopt a child, what is the status of that child under Torah. Inquiring minds want to know...

It's OK Easy if you don't want to answer. I understand.

visionary said:

I like the image presented... What is not explained is what the remnant walk, talk and look like... are they the saints that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Yeshua?

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Precisely.

This is why I keep coming back to the fact that "Israel is Israel".

Gentiles may join the religious sect of Messianic Judaism, but at that point, there are only two options--

1. identify as part of Israel (convert), or
2. maintain Gentile identity while following the laws of the Messianic King in support of Israel.

There is no such thing as a "Gentile Israel", which is really what most people mean when they say, "spiritual Israel".

mishkan said:

Precisely.

This is why I keep coming back to the fact that "Israel is Israel".

Gentiles may join the religious sect of Messianic Judaism, but at that point, there are only two options--

1. identify as part of Israel (convert), or
2. maintain Gentile identity while following the laws of the Messianic King in support of Israel.

There is no such thing as a "Gentile Israel", which is really what most people mean when they say, "spiritual Israel".

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I resemble #2 .. except I like to say I am English, Irish, American, Canadian, Cherokee who follows the laws spoken on Mount Sinai by Messiah Yeshua whom I love and support Israel's right to exist here in the last days.

visionary said:

I resemble #2 .. except I like to say I am English, Irish, American, Canadian, Cherokee who follows the laws spoken on Mount Sinai by Messiah Yeshua whom I love and support Israel's right to exist here in the last days.

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Works for me.

pat34lee said:

The remnant in the center is spiritual Israel, made of believers of all nations. One does not replace the other.

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I think what a lot of people tend to fail in understanding is that the Israel of God parallels the one the Lord made in the Mosaic Covenant. For that Israel had those who were believers/ethnic Hebrews who served the Lord - and yet they spoke out frequently to those who either became Apostate Hebrews or agnostic Hebrews trying to lead the Israeli Government of their day (like Elijah and the Remnant against the prophets of Baal and the Hebrews in Deuterononmy being told how to handle others who went against God's covenant).

Within that you also had Gentiles who chose to convert/become adopted into Israelite culture - and they, once accepted, were treated as Israelis (i.e. Gentiles like Ruth, Rahab, Caleb - from the line of Esau but adopted into the tribe of Judah, etc.) - and then you also had Gentiles within the land who were physically in Israel but did not do the same...with the Lord having specific guidelines for them and yet the Lord had no issue with them living as they did so long as it was not sin - even giving them unclean meat in light of how the Hebrews alone were required to abstain from that due to being set apart (the stranger/foreigner who was to be treated with respect per Leviticus 19:33, Deuteronomy 14:21, Deuteronomy 23:16 and Exodus 22:20-22 amongst others ).

Granted, when it comes to the issue of foreigner, there were differing categories of foreigners - from those who were servants of the Lord and yet foreigners in Israel...to those who were foreigners who did not serve the Lord as their God. Some things for the foreigners who did not serve the Lord were not allowed - such as promoting witchcraft in Israel since that was something universal that was not allowed, be it for Hebrew or Foreigners - but on other things, the foreigners themselves did not have the same level of association as the Hebrews.

As it concerns other categories of foreigners, there were also those who were temprorary visitors, in the same way that you'd be either in another country as a tourist or on a business trip. You also had those who were residents thankful for the People of Israel/the area they resided and yet they may've not been devoted to serving the Lord - much in the same way that you had others like King Darius with Daniel or King Cyrus who helped the Jewish people return home in addition to being beloved by their subjects for the ways they treated others/allowed a significant deal of multiculturalism and supported a policy of multi-religious views to flourish.. and was well known for being "The Lord's Anointed One"/"God's Servant"/ "God's Shepherd" ( Isaiah 45:1-3 /Isaiah 44:27-28 (- more shared here in #1)according to Isaiah....or King Hiram who helped Solomon in His kingdom (1 Kings 9:13 2 Samuel 5 /1 Kings 5 /2 Chronicles 2 /2 Chronicles 2:10-12 ).

In all of that, there was never a category of "foreigner" that was equated to being a Hebrew who was called to do the same things at all points as the Hebrews were explictly called to do. It is a very black-and-white discussion - even though it's sadly the case that others may say otherwise. Some other things one can consider on the subject is the dynamic of what the actual terms in language mean when it comes to how "foreigner" was always meant to convey - and as tends to happen in many Hebrew Roots cults, the focus may go toward "Well, the Hebrew says this..." - despite where the Hebrew can have multiple meanings at times and what determines meaning primarily is the actual practice that surrounded it.

If you'd like the Hebrew definition of foreigner, one can go here. One can also go here, if they so choose, to Strangers and Gentiles - Jewish Virtual Library for a erudite discussion on the issue of what being a stranger meant.

That said - in going back to the issue of what differing categories of foreigners were present - you also had others outside of Israel who were also included amongst God's people/used to bless it - folks like Jethro being one of them ( who helped Moses, bringing with him Zipporah and her two sons - meeting at the "mount of God," where "Moses told him all that the Lord had done unto Pharaoh" Ex. 18:8 and they celebrated the Lord together - even though he had to go back to Midian - and then later on Jethro, observing the multiplicity of the duties devolving on Moses, advised him to appoint subordinate judges, rulers of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens, to decide smaller matters, leaving only the weightier matters to be referred to Moses, to be laid before the Lord. ..and this advice Moses adopted Ex. 18 and it was made apart of Mosaic Code). In addition to Jethro would be others like the Rechabites, the Ethiopian EBED-MELECH who rescued Jeremiah from the dungeon/pit he was trapped in and was praised by the Lord for it(Jeremiah 38, Jeremiah 39 ) whereas Apostate Israelites tried to kill Jeremiah/harm others speaking against them were denounced sharply.

Out of all the foreigners, IMHO, Jethro is the most interesting. For Jethro stood outside of the Covenant Community...yet displayed uncanny knowledge of God. With Jethro, in Exodus 18, he was a priest of Midian (Exodus 3:1, Exodus 4:18)...and in light of the difficulty of both Egypt and the journey to Rephidim, Jethro's coming to meet Moses displays a relational posture of peace and encouragement, similar to when Aaron met Moses "at the mountain of God on his return from Midian (Exodus 4:27-31). Amazingly, after simply hearing about what the Lord had done on Israel's belalf, Jethro's words and actions represent a more faithful response than came from many of those who had experienced the events in Egypt (not to mention Egypt itself, as well as Amalek).

When he says, "Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods" in verse 11, he echoes the purpose that the Lord said the plagues were to have for both Israel (Exodus 6:7) and Egypt (Exodus 7:5, Exodus 7:15). When Jethro brought burnt offerings and sacrifices and ate before God with Moses, Aaron and the elders, he prefigured the pattern of life that the Lord would reveal further at Mount Sinai (Deuteronomy 12:5-7). And as said before, Jethro was used by the Lord to help him find a faithful and workable way to have others bear the burden of judging the people and ensuring their well-being --His words becoming central to Israel's makeup in choosing judges (Exodus 18:13-26).

In all of that, God's People were united under him - differing levels and interactions - and none of it involved people looking the same or being the same at all points. Yeshua emphasized this as seen in

• Luke 4:18-26 of Naaman the Syrian (from II Kings 5) as the only one who was healed/blessed of God despite all the other Israeli lepers because of his trust in the Lord,
• The Widow in Sidon that Elijah went to despite all the other widows in Israel and that Yeshua also noted in Luke 4
• John 4 with the woman at the well/her town coming to faith in Him,
• Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-39 in emphasizing what it meant to reflect the Lord and how even Samaritans were able to do that
• The Roman Centurion in Matthew 8 who had greater faith than anyone in Israel
• The Samaritan leper in Luke 17 who ended up healed/placing faith in Yeshua
• The Demonized man in Gentile territory in Mark 5 who was told to go back to his people/testify of what Yeshua had done
• The Greeks who came to hear of the Messiah in John 12:20-25
• The Syrian-Phonecian Woman in Matthew 15 whose daughter was healed because of her faith in Him
• The Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8 who was able to read of the Messiah because of Philip
• The Samaritan Towns in Acts 8 which were evangelized by Philip, the towns evangelized by Paul
• Cornelius in Acts 10-11 during the Gentile Pentecost and the Holy Spirit coming upon them

All of that was in addition to the Law itself (more discussed in in #11 (as well as #146, #147 #77 and #75 )... the Prophets and all of the Messianic Writings which speak of Yeshua and His focus. Historically, whenever Jewish believers/Jewish Christians (Messianic Jews) spoke of their relationship to Gentiles in the 1st Century, they'd not that they were all apart of God's Israel and yet they as Ethnic Israel were distinctly different than Gentiles were in their mission to reach out to the Physical State of Israel/other non-believing Jews.

That is radically different than what's commonly ascribed in modern times to Replacement Theology because of a lack of understanding that says either the Jewish people God no longer loves (false) or a view saying Gentiles are now the equivalent of Jew/Hebrews and must identify with the Hebrews in all their actions in order to truly support Israel/it's king - a view that is ONE Law and also a form of Replacement Theology.

There are many in the Messianic Movement who've taken the stance that Israel is one part of the Community of G-d (Ekklesia), and the saved Gentiles are the other part of the Ekklesia - believing that we are all part of the same Body.... Jews and Gentiles being sharers together in the promise in Messiah, which shows that the Ekklesia (Church) has not “replaced” Israel or “taken over” the promises from Israel. Others advocating this are individuals such as Gene Shlomovich (author of Daily Minyan) - one who has shared some very good thoughts on the issue even though I don't necessarily suscribe to everything he supports. He seems to have the same theological point of view as Boaz Michael from First Fruits of Zion , both being advocates against specific forms of One Law and specific forms of Two House theology. This is from FFOZ's site, Found under "Where do Jewish believers stand with FFOZ?" here at Frequently Asked Theological Questions | FFOZ
And from Biblical Foundations | First Fruits of Zion
And on things Gene Shlomovich has noted:

• “Enlightened”: Real stories of former One Law and Two House believers
• Are Christians/Gentile believers “spiritual Jews” or “Israelites?” – Part I << Daily Minyan
• Are Christians/Gentile believers “spiritual Jews” or “Israelites?” – Part II << Daily Minyan

talmidim said:

If a leader, a prominent man among the tribes, a prince of the tribe of Judah decides to adopt a child, what is the status of that child under Torah. Inquiring minds want to know...

It's OK Easy if you don't want to answer. I understand.

So explain the concept of actual adoption in ancient Israel. We do so need your perspective.

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Amen for adoption into Israel - and on the issue, I have already taken time to address the issue before in previous dialouges with others who either had the same questions - or who were seeking to address them (more shared before here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and other places).

Thus, any attempt at trying to imply that I don't "want to answer" is wanting in light of where answer was given. Some answers were short while others were longer - but the bottom line is that an addressment of the issue was undertaken. And anyone really wishing to know can simply address what was already noted on the issue of adoption/what it means when it came up before (also seen in #68 amongst other places). All one has to do - if not certain of where an issue was addressed - is to go to the "CF Search" engine, type in the respective words and things will appear. Done so numerous times before to either catch up on what has been said or verify in the event that I'm not certain it has been touched upon - just as others have done - and it always comes in handy. That is a part of what it means to sincerely seek answers on issues when it comes to truly wishing to study (Proverbs 18:13, Proverbs 18:15, Proverbs 3:13-18, etc) - as opposed to claiming one wishes to read and yet not tackling what was placed out. I don't have an issue with giving answers to questions - for I've already done that. What I do have issue with (as said before) is being asked to give answers when there's not searching for them done previously/respect in addressing what people took time to tackle before...and I alongside others simply don't care to play games on the matter..

pat34lee said:

My reply to the rant in question is here. The original is a couple of posts above.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7716213-2/#post62193563

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OK... maybe I ranted a little. It was inadvertant, and I can certainly see why you might characterize that post as a rant. The last line, in particular. Sorry about that.

pat34lee said:

I can't photoshop very well, but here is what you're saying. The subset of believers is what I refer to as spiritual Israel, as in spiritually living, but remnant works as well.

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That's pretty good. Yes, that's how I picture it. A clear transition from one realm into the other. I know this isn't a common view, but I think this covers the most cases most accurately.

Thanks for taking the time to do the drawing.

macher said:

The patriarchs are the root.

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The patriarchs make a world of difference...and a lot have noted that the ways the Patriarch system works isn't by focusing on what they had alone - but looking on the One whom they were all placing faith in (Yeshua).

I still wonder on how that'd all work out when considering the others who were not necessarily "patriarchs" in the same way as Abraham, Isaac and Joseph - but involved deeply nonetheless. Job and Noah come immdeiately to mind.

With Job, he Job himself was a righteous man after God whom God highly favored---with many scholars saying that Job actually existed way before Abraham did. The Israelite author presents Job as a person living in Uz, which is outside the borders of Israel itself ---and His piety (Job 1:1) exemplifies the ideal in Israelite wisdom and He invokes the name of Yahweh (Job 1:21). But at the same time, his relationship to Abraham's offspring remains a mystery. The events of the book seem to be set in the times of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The way Ezekiel 14:14 and Ezekiel 14:20 refer to Job along with two others apparently from ancient times enhances this impression....and so do the favorite names for the deity, God" (Hb. 'Eloah, the singular of 'Elohim) and "the Almighty" (Hb. Shadday), which seem more suited to the days before the Exodus 3:14 and Exodus 6:3 instances. The name Yahweh, the Lord, appear only in Job 1-2 and Job 38-42, with one lone exception in the middle of the book, 12:9).

Again, the prophet Ezekiel mentions Job along with Noah and Daniel, and this seems to imply that he took Job as a real perosn. This is also the implication of James 5:11. With what was noted by Ezekiel, its interesting to see Noah and Job listed together---as Noah and Job are well-known righteous men of the past (Genesis 6:9, Job 1:1) - with Noah being called a "preacher of rignteousness" ( 2 Peter 2:4-6 )..and Noah existed before the era after the Flood. Its possible that Job either existed at the same time as Noah or came directly after Him. But the text makes clear Job was in the form of a priest, making sacrifices for the sake of his children/family and intercedding for them..and that was all in the abscence of Mosaic Code. How did he know that? It seems logical that the Lord revealed Himself to Him personally - and even if others didn't do things, his heart of truth/repentance was based on personal relationship before what He knew of the Lord.

Shimshon said:

While Messianic Judaism is One House (not to be confussed or misconstrued with One Law), as it states both Jew and Gentile are ONE in the house of God.

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United in Messiah by His Life, Death, Sacrifice and Redeemption (Colossians 2-3).