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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
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- Thread starter gitlance
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pmcleanj
Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner
From the Visitor's Centre. A page full of short one-paragraph explainations to help visitors understand the terms that they encounter, using words that are in common use among such unchurched Americans as don't already know what a "Eucharist" is, and without making a theological argument for one churchmanship over another. It does not say "only a symbol", and even high sacramentalists agree that a sacrament must also symbolize the grace that it effects.gitlance said:
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cathromang
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"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins and which, in his goodness, the Father raised . . ."
St Ignatius of Antioch 110 AD
For we do not receive these as common bread and common drink; but just as Jesus Christ our Savior, having been made flesh by the word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have learned that the food over which thanks has been given by the prayer of the word which comes from him, and by which are blood and flesh are nourished through a change, is the Flesh and Blood of the same incarnate Jesus.
St Justin Martyr 155 AD
St Ignatius of Antioch 110 AD
For we do not receive these as common bread and common drink; but just as Jesus Christ our Savior, having been made flesh by the word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have learned that the food over which thanks has been given by the prayer of the word which comes from him, and by which are blood and flesh are nourished through a change, is the Flesh and Blood of the same incarnate Jesus.
St Justin Martyr 155 AD
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Inside Edge
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I really hope something like this statement ranks really low on your "why I can't be Anglican anymore" scale. Otherwise, you're in for a rough go if summarized blurbs on the internet affect your religious identity so much.
Consider the audience. That statement wasn't written for you. I'm pretty certain that you would get an answer satisfactory to your personal opinion and outlook if you asked a priest, bishop, or an Anglican professor here or there.
Guess what? I've heard Roman Catholic clergy say the exact same thing.
Dude, the internet is no place to put your faith-compass to work.
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- Jul 2, 2005
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gitlance said:
Yeah, like I said...Zwinglian.
Anyway- Pam does have a point too....this is from the Visitor's Centre, not Lambeth Palace. It's just badly written by some flunky some where and will probably be re-written again, and again, and again.....and again....
Not to worry.
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Inside Edge said:
Sure, but this isn't just the internet.
It is the flippin "official" web page of ECUSA - you would think ECUSA could find someone with better Eucharistic Theology.
Actually, no you wouldn't... You would think this was actually unusually conservative for ECUSA.
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Oh for heaven's sake. I saw this one coming. Git, what is your purpose in starting this thread? You have openly and dramatically declared you are leaving ECUSA for another denomination, you have changed your icon, you are posting on another board and no longer self identifying as an Anglican. Why are you compelled to come back and continue to tell us of your "broken heart" over the ECUSA? For your own mental and emotional health, I really think you should move on and embrace your new church. We all still love you, and wish you the best. Let it be.gitlance said:
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He has a compeltely valid point - and from his perspective ECUSA left him. Everythign Lance stands for can be backed up as Christian. Everything ECUSA stands for takes a lot more wrangling to fit into Christianity. That is fine and I can live with it, but we have to be honest about ECUSA and Anglicanism.higgs2 said:
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- Jul 2, 2005
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gtsecc said:
Good point. Most Continuers feel that way too.
One of the things I used to lament before I joined the Continuum way back in the stone age was how the church I joined, by choice, after much investigation, got up and walked off to the wild blue yonder, leaving me sitting there thinking "wait guys, I just got here, and you're leaving?". I wish it was like it used to be, the church I fell in love with.
Nowadays, I am a little smarter, I know that they will be back.
Why? Two things, first of all, all the liberal bishops are in their 50's. Hardly any of the next generation of bishops are really liberal. The pendulum will swing, it always does.
Secondly, one of the great lessons in the Bible is how people get what they want but lose what they have. eg. Adam got the fruit he wanted but lost the relationship he had with God. The more people leave traditional Anglicanism for whatever reason, either from within or departing, whether it be liberalism, Romanism, Orthodoxy, Pentecostalism or whatever, the more they lament losing all the great things they had. Right now, the church is just starting to realize what it has lost, and where it can get it again.
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Regarding the Visitor's Center sign, please read Pamela's post.gtsecc said:
ECUSA has not gone anywhere. The liguistic gymnastics to say that it has "left" people are hyperbole. Life is full of choices, choosing Rome is a valid choice, showing more integrity than most of those (network) who keep on about ECUSA "leaving them".
We have increased the membership of our local ECUSA parish by about 15% in the last couple of years, that does not include births.
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Pamela's post is great, but ECUSA has changed.higgs2 said:
ECUSA may be right to change (that is a whole different thread), but you can't be intelelctually honest about things and say they haven't changed.
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pmcleanj
Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner
In fact, ECUSA (and most of the Anglican Provinces) have undergone tremendous change since the Liturgical Reform movement of the 1970's. Lex Orandi, Lex Credi, right? So the introduction of Rite I versus Rite II -- a choice of prayer rather than common prayer; of Eucharistic Prayers A through E -- even more choice; of a three-year lectionary rather than the carefully calender-regulated (but more limited) one-year Eiucharistic lectionary; the re-dating of traditional Collects; the introduction of litany-styled Prayers of the People -- all these things introduced radical, liturgy-shaking, doctrine-shaking change that's been reverberating through the communion for thirty-odd years.gtsecc said:
It seems odd to me for those who never experienced the old Common Prayer in their lifetime; who were baptized in a service that replaced the old rolling phrase "Manfully to fight under his banner against sin, the world and the Devil" with giving a candle; who see the paraphernalia of Anglo-Catholicism as a norm rather than a recent trend of the late twentieth century -- to complain about how the Church has changed. It's like someone riding a roller-coaster complaining about how much they liked the right-sloping ride and how the swerve-left is an unexpected change! Guys, that right-sloping ride is part of a whole pattern of change that fits into a larger stable and well-anchored whole.
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I think the Church has changed. I think overall it has been a change for the positive. But, being honest, we have some things that have changed for the worse. But I still love this Church. I know some of us have mixed feelings about it and if they decide to worship with the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Methodists, etc.: Great! May God bless you abundantly!
But I do take offense when someone who has left our Church but still chooses to come to us and describe to us our challenges and obstacles. We know. We struggle with them daily. I think it would be more fruitful if you came back to us to share how Christ has blessed you, or offered prayers, or gave encouragement for those of us who still choose to adore our Lord in an Episcopal church.
I just needed to say that. I am not one who usually uses CF for conflict, but I had to get that out.
But I do take offense when someone who has left our Church but still chooses to come to us and describe to us our challenges and obstacles. We know. We struggle with them daily. I think it would be more fruitful if you came back to us to share how Christ has blessed you, or offered prayers, or gave encouragement for those of us who still choose to adore our Lord in an Episcopal church.
I just needed to say that. I am not one who usually uses CF for conflict, but I had to get that out.
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- Feb 8, 2004
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What really is the purpose of this thread?
Lance- like others have said, the quote you mention is from the visitors section of website of the ECUSA. It is not designed to be some theological exposition of the sacrament; rather its purpose is to introduce visitors to some of the broad concepts in the Church. I have yet to find a definition which would be accessible to all, and the example on the ECUSA's website serves its purpose well.
I do wonder however why you chose to bring this up now.
Lance- like others have said, the quote you mention is from the visitors section of website of the ECUSA. It is not designed to be some theological exposition of the sacrament; rather its purpose is to introduce visitors to some of the broad concepts in the Church. I have yet to find a definition which would be accessible to all, and the example on the ECUSA's website serves its purpose well.
I do wonder however why you chose to bring this up now.
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High/Low Church refers to the style of worship. One being an Anglo-Catholic or not is a theological claim of being just as Catholic as the Romans and Orthodox.
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This is BY NO MEANS the reason I am leaving. In fact, it is rather insignificant. However, it does stand to reason that there are some problems with that statement. Further, when I first went to that same website about 3 years ago, their statement on the Eucharist was much different. As I recall, it even used the phrase "real presence" to describe a pretty broad-church view, but which included that idea that in some way Christ was actually present.Inside Edge said:
That said, however, I just noticed that statement on there yesterday, and my mind has been made up for awhile now due to other facts.
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