Ideas?

[anonymous1515]

Well guys, if you have any suggestions, I'm all ears. I have to write a mini-proposal for an experiment to test for an adaptive trait in any organism on the planet. Anything come to mind? I figured since there are so many people with such diverse views, something interesting might spring up...

 

[Molal]

Is this meant to be a known adaptive trait or an unknown adaptive trait?

 

[sfs]

More information, please. Is this a real experiment or a thought experiment? In any case, what kind of experiment are you talking about? Field, lab, genetic? How much money is there to spend (the most important question in any scientific research)?

 

[anonymous1515]

Its more of a thought experiment. Just to propose a test of an adaptive hypothesis. It could be either a further test of a known adaptive trait, or a novel test of an unknown adaptive trait. Really, its quite open. I'm just struggling with ideas right now.

For example, I've worked on some budworm spray projects for a few years. I noticed that budworm tend to construct silk shelters in the foliage, so I was thinking about designing an experiment to study the selective forces acting on silk density. (i.e. does greater silk density impart greater survival, and why? Is it through decreased predation or through decreased mortality as a result of environmental stresses?).

I had also noticed that budworm moths tended to lay eggs on older needles rather than younger needles. I wonder if this is an adaptive behaviour? Maybe older needles have some benefit that younger needles don't. Older needles tend to be larger, longer, stiffer, and less dense. Perhaps eggs stick better to stiffer, harder needles? Or perhaps the fact that the needles are less dense means less intraspecific competetion between other larvae. I could test either or both of those hypotheses...

 

[anonymous1515]

But, that's kind of a boring topic... I figured that since alot of people on this forum had discussed evolution in detail, there might be some interesting questions that had arisen.

 

[juvenissun]

But, that's kind of a boring topic... I figured that since alot of people on this forum had discussed evolution in detail, there might be some interesting questions that had arisen.

The assignment is an evil trap.

If any adaptive trait is known, then why is the experiment needed?
If you give any thought which sheds question to the idea of adaptive trait, are you, at least, trying to argue like a stupid Creationist?

Be careful, it is an old communist trick. You go either way, and will get a D grade regardless.

 

[Molal]

Its more of a thought experiment. Just to propose a test of an adaptive hypothesis. It could be either a further test of a known adaptive trait, or a novel test of an unknown adaptive trait. Really, its quite open. I'm just struggling with ideas right now.

For example, I've worked on some budworm spray projects for a few years. I noticed that budworm tend to construct silk shelters in the foliage, so I was thinking about designing an experiment to study the selective forces acting on silk density. (i.e. does greater silk density impart greater survival, and why? Is it through decreased predation or through decreased mortality as a result of environmental stresses?).

I had also noticed that budworm moths tended to lay eggs on older needles rather than younger needles. I wonder if this is an adaptive behaviour? Maybe older needles have some benefit that younger needles don't. Older needles tend to be larger, longer, stiffer, and less dense. Perhaps eggs stick better to stiffer, harder needles? Or perhaps the fact that the needles are less dense means less intraspecific competetion between other larvae. I could test either or both of those hypotheses...

I see. I wonder if you would be interested in studying eipgenetics - such as the daphnia response to predation? They grow spines, which disappear within a few generations.

 

[anonymous1515]

I see. I wonder if you would be interested in studying eipgenetics - such as the daphnia response to predation? They grow spines, which disappear within a few generations.

That could be interesting. I'm currently involved in a research project where I'm monitoring pond invertebrate responses to duck predation. So it's kind of along the same lines. Good idea!

 

[anonymous1515]

The assignment is an evil trap.

If any adaptive trait is known, then why is the experiment needed?
If you give any thought which sheds question to the idea of adaptive trait, are you, at least, trying to argue like a stupid Creationist?

Be careful, it is an old communist trick. You go either way, and will get a D grade regardless.

Well, I think the purpose of the assignment is to test adaptive hypotheses in areas that havent been explored yet. So, for example, I wouldn't be testing to see if larger body sizes were selected for in cold environments (because we already know that they are).

And, if it turns out the trait I'm looking at is not adaptive, then that's fine. As long as I have evidence to back up my claims, I should be fine.

 

[Molal]

That could be interesting. I'm currently involved in a research project where I'm monitoring pond invertebrate responses to duck predation. So it's kind of along the same lines. Good idea!

There is some significance with epigenetic studies and cancer research.

I'll come back with more, when I think about them.

Oh, yes, while I am thinking about it - how about plant tolerance of RoundUp - the glyphosate based weedkiller? This is becoming a major problem for farmers due to the overuse of RoundUp.

 

[anonymous1515]

There is some significance with epigenetic studies and cancer research.

I'll come back with more, when I think about them.

Oh, yes, while I am thinking about it - how about plant tolerance of RoundUp - the glyphosate based weedkiller? This is becoming a major problem for farmers due to the overuse of RoundUp.

Hmm, that's interesting too. Ok, I'll look into it. Tolerance buildup is pretty cool stuff.

 

[Molal]

Hmm, that's interesting too. Ok, I'll look into it. Tolerance buildup is pretty cool stuff.

Well, good luck my friend and if I think of something I'll come back and post.

 

[Mallon]

For example, I've worked on some budworm spray projects for a few years. I noticed that budworm tend to construct silk shelters in the foliage, so I was thinking about designing an experiment to study the selective forces acting on silk density. (i.e. does greater silk density impart greater survival, and why? Is it through decreased predation or through decreased mortality as a result of environmental stresses?).

I don't think this is a boring test subject at all. In fact, I think it's kind of neat. Especially given your familiarity with it.
Just keep in mind that not all traits are adaptive. If you haven't already, make you read Lewtontin and Gould's revolutionary 'spandrels' paper:

http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/ridley/classictexts/gould.asp

And ignore juvie-the-loon. As always, he has no idea what he's talking about.

 

[anonymous1515]

I don't think this is a boring test subject at all. In fact, I think it's kind of neat. Especially given your familiarity with it.
Just keep in mind that not all traits are adaptive. If you haven't already, make you read Lewtontin and Gould's revolutionary 'spandrels' paper:

http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/ridley/classictexts/gould.asp

And ignore juvie-the-loon. As always, he has no idea what he's talking about.

Thanks Mallon, I haven't read that paper yet. I really enjoy reading Lewontin - I especially enjoyed his book, The Doctrine of DNA. Great read!

 

[anonymous1515]

Alright, I think I figured out my question/topic. It's changed a little, but tell me what you think.

Budworm tend to lay eggs on older, rather than younger pine needles (I've observed this in the field too). Older needles are usually thicker, longer, and more rigid than younger needles. I'm going to design a test to see if moth oviposition is an adaptive behaviour.

I hypothesize that eggs that are laid on older pine needles are less likely to be washed off by rain and wind than eggs that are laid on softer, younger pine needles. As such, moths that oviposit on older needles are selected for, since their eggs are less likely to be washed away.

However, I'm not entirely sure this is a good hypothesis. I suppose I have to establish why stiffer needles would be more likely to retain eggs...

 

[gluadys]

However, I'm not entirely sure this is a good hypothesis. I suppose I have to establish why stiffer needles would be more likely to retain eggs...

Even before that, I think you would have to demonstrate that those on older pine needles are less likely to be washed away.

Then, why.

 

[anonymous1515]

Even before that, I think you would have to demonstrate that those on older pine needles are less likely to be washed away.

Then, why.

Yeah. I agree. Jackpine usually keeps its needles for about 3 or 4 years, and I usually saw budworm eggs on the 3rd year's foliage. The third year foliage is way, way longer and thicker than first year foliage.

Once laid, it only takes about 1 week for budworm larvae to hatch from the eggs. So, it's not too likely that the pine needles themselves will be washed away. Rather, I am wondering if the eggs themselves are being washed off the needles.

But, in order to test if oviposition on stiffer needles is an adaptive trait designed to retain eggs in stormy weather, I would have to establish why stiffer/wider/longer needles would be better able to retain eggs.

In any case, you guys have stimulated my thought! Thanks!

 

[Vance]

You could look at the nylon-eating bacteria, which is a known adaptation, fairly recent, and there is a lot of stuff on it (which both helps and hinders, since it will not be seen as new).

 

[juvenissun]

Well, I think the purpose of the assignment is to test adaptive hypotheses in areas that havent been explored yet. So, for example, I wouldn't be testing to see if larger body sizes were selected for in cold environments (because we already know that they are).

And, if it turns out the trait I'm looking at is not adaptive, then that's fine. As long as I have evidence to back up my claims, I should be fine.

The loony Juvie is going to speak. Since I am a Creationist, you better ignore my suggestion, which is most likely, unscientific.

First, what you are trying to do does not address the question, which asked you to explore an adaptive behavior. That is fatal. You could fail the assignment before you even start your argument.

In order to evaluate if a trait is adaptive or not, some kind of struggling process must be described. How do you suggest a proof which says the budworm had discovered that young needle was unfavorable and then migrated to old needle? You like to live in a big house does not mean you can not survive in a small house.

If I were you, I will abandon the idea.

 

[Molal]

No name calling.