Icons...

[Thekla]

The Icon or my buddy Fr. Lary?

You are welcome to tell Fr. Lary I said he reminds me of Rouault

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The earliest iconographers in Byzantium weren’t considered artists they were considered craftsmen. There are strict rules to iconography. God the Father is never shown, and the Holy Spirit is only represented by a dove, rays of power, or tongues of flame. People who defile them, make portraits of other people like Ghandi or Martin Luther King in an iconographic style, people who print them on t-shirts: it is seen pretty much as very sad and outrageous. Not everything that claims to be an icon is an icon. Books upon books have been written about icons.

It happened not too long ago where others were having issue with the fact that Martin Luther King recieved the title of Saint....with the archdiocese of Saint Louis celebrating a Mass for Martin Luther King, Jr. and the mass dedicated to honoring MLK's message of inalienable human dignity (more here, here, here, here, here, here and here ) - and making him into an icon...

The man is one of my heros and I think it's amazing that others would even consider him to be within the realm of people to be deemed "Saint"... But it has been debated on whether he deserves any recognition of being a Saint - more shared elsewhere in TAW here in Is Martin Luther King Jr. A Saint?


Of course, a lot of people were having issue with King even being celebrated, as they felt the Catholic Church shouldn't be honoring someone so highly even though he's not Catholic. And ultimately, a lot of it comes down to what is meant by "saint" and whether others are referring to a "canonized saint" or simply a "saint" (as in, one who is in Heaven and may/may not be recognized on Earth). King David committed several bad deeds and he is regarded as a saint. Moses murdered an Egyptian yet he is one of the most venerated figures within the Bible, and is equally praised in Judaism and Islam alike.

But in regards to saints, it's interesting to see how even protestants have had saints.

For example, both John and Charles Wesley are saints in the Anglican Communion...and that is interesting considering that Anglicanism in its structures, theology, and forms of worship, is commonly understood as a distinct Christian tradition representing a middle ground between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism and, as such, is often referred to as being a via media (or middle way) between these traditions.

Many have noted that the Church does not go around canonizing non-Catholics as Saints, even though it doesn't mean there are none. And to have them in the form of icons - it does make you pause to think.

MLK not being deemed a saint in many places is something I don't see as a new issue, really. And as said best elsewhere on the issue:

Originally Posted by FireDragon76

St. Isaac the Syrian is venerated by Orthodox and yet he was technically in a schismatic sect. He was venerated because people recognized holiness and yet they were probably unaware he wasn't Eastern Orthodox..

Originally Posted by Gxg (G²)
Seeing how much he was involved in the world of Oriential Orthodoxy, I don't think it's a stretch to note how many saints actually were used amongst many differing circles ..an ecumenical aspect to it since who they were transcended the group they belonged to.

The Spiritual World of Isaac the Syrian (more here and here/here) by (now Metropolitan) Hilarion Alfayev notes how many wonderful contributions he offered (more shared here on that ) - and it was amazing to see how St. Isaac was very representative of others in Syrian world who were very distinct/expressive when it came to the stories they shared to give truth...those stories or parables not having to be broken down like breaking down a math formula - but certain things inherent in them spiritually.

Some say it's problematic that St. Isaac was considered a Nestorian - but IMHO, even if St. Isaac were a Nestorian, that wouldn't shake my faith in the slightest since what matters is the life he lived and what he inspired others to do. The book by Hilarion Alfayev addresses the question of whether St Isaac was a Nestorian quite directly and effectively - and gives a balanced look at his life, background and teaching – including how a Nestorian Bishop came to be venerated by the Chalcedonians

And in being Nestorian, it's technically the case that he's “Nestorian” only in the sense that St. Isaac himself was a part of the Assyrian Church of the East, and not in visible communion with the Eastern Orthodox in his lifetime. One of the best scholars around on Syrian culture and the Syriac Orthodox Tradition - Dr. Sebastian Brock - did some good reviews on the issue as it concerns the ways that some things are not as easily understood when considering how terminology can get lost in translations. For more, one can go here or online/check out the book entitled Fire from Heaven: Studies in Syriac Theology And Liturgy.

​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

You are welcome to tell Fr. Lary I said he reminds me of Rouault

 

[MoreCoffee]

So?

Google the title Too Many Cheeky Dogs.

It's a children's book written by a woman and illustrated by a deaf and speechless young man who also has muscular dystrophy. It's creation is a little story of hope.

I liked the title and the pictures

Not every icon needs to depict an explicitly religious story of hope. God works in people and places far from a church's interior.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

You are welcome to tell Fr. Lary I said he reminds me of Rouault

I was unfamiliar with Rouault; but I have seen pictures of his art many times. I believe the cover art on the book "Spirituality of the Cross", published by Concordia, is his.

BTW Father Larry has way more hair than Rouault.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

It happened not too long ago where others were having issue with the fact that Martin Luther King recieved the title of Saint....with the archdiocese of Saint Louis celebrating a Mass for Martin Luther King, Jr. and the mass dedicated to honoring MLK's message of inalienable human dignity (more here, here, here, here, here, here and here ) - and making him into an icon...

​

​

The man is one of my heros and I think it's amazing that others would even consider him to be within the realm of people to be deemed "Saint"...


Of course, a lot of people were having issue with King even being celebrated, as they felt the Catholic Church shouldn't be honoring someone so highly even though he's not Catholic. And ultimately, a lot of it comes down to what is meant by "saint" and whether others are referring to a "canonized saint" or simply a "saint" (as in, one who is in Heaven and may/may not be recognized on Earth). King David committed several bad deeds and he is regarded as a saint. Moses murdered an Egyptian yet he is one of the most venerated figures within the Bible, and is equally praised in Judaism and Islam alike.

But in regards to saints, it's interesting to see how even protestants have had saints.

For example, both John and Charles Wesley are saints in the Anglican Communion...and that is interesting considering that Anglicanism in its structures, theology, and forms of worship, is commonly understood as a distinct Christian tradition representing a middle ground between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism and, as such, is often referred to as being a via media (or middle way) between these traditions.

Many have noted that the Church does not go around canonizing non-Catholics as Saints, even though it doesn't mean there are none. And to have them in the form of icons - it does make you pause to think.

You may find it interesting to note the commemorations in our tradition. Generally, if one had been cannonized or traditionally been give the title "saint", we have retained this. Others whom we commemorate who have not (for example Martin Luther, J. S. Bach) who have not traditionally had the title saint, have not been given that title in our calendar. Here is a link to the commemorations and their biographies from Lutheran Service Book: Commemorations from Lutheran Service Book

 

[Tangible]

St. John Coltrane

 

[MoreCoffee]

Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton of the USA.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

St. John Coltrane

Remember coming across this before (some of it discussed in previous conversations elsewhere - such as here and here/here in #8 /#34 ). It's not surprising to see what occurred with John Coltrane (whose music took on a more spiritual dimension in his later years ) - him being deemed a saint by the group claiming to be the African Orthodox Church (more at The Saxophone Saint on Vimeo AND Sunday Religion, Inspired by Saturday Nights - New York Times)

Saint John Coltrane - YouTube​

The group's claims to being connected to Orthodoxy have long been debated and repeatedly dismissed in light of what they practice (even though historically a bishop of that church - not the "Coltrane" branch" - went to Uganda and ordained Ruben Spartus Mukasa and one of his associates there priests of the African Orthodox Church - with it being the case that a few years later, Mukasa and his followers decided to align with the Eastern Orthodox Church and Mukasa went to Alexandria and was ordained by the patriarch there, while the African Orthodox Church lost its connection in Uganda and what was really happening with African Orthodoxy....more discussed here and here). It's not surprising seeing the icon made of Coltrane - as they already have it where Lenin was depicted in a Greek Orthodox Church (here )...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

You may find it interesting to note the commemorations in our tradition. Generally, if one had been cannonized or traditionally been give the title "saint", we have retained this. Others whom we commemorate who have not (for example Martin Luther, J. S. Bach) who have not traditionally had the title saint, have not been given that title in our calendar. Here is a link to the commemorations and their biographies from Lutheran Service Book: Commemorations from Lutheran Service Book

Thanks for the info

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton of the USA.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

God is faithful...

 

[childofdust]

1.) Are they contrary to scripture?

Scripture is an icon.

The church is an icon.

Christ is an icon.

Buildings are an icon.

Worship is an icon.

Clothing is an icon.

What's the issue?

 

[JesusFreak78]

Scripture is an icon.

The church is an icon.

Christ is an icon.

Buildings are an icon.

Worship is an icon.

Clothing is an icon.

What's the issue?

I would like to see those statements backed up with scriptures (from the bible).

 

[simonthezealot]

I would like to see those statements backed up with scriptures (from the bible).

Right?
That's simply ridiculous...
Christ for example is the exact representation, He is NO icon.
The church is the elect or called out ones, how could that be an icon?

 

[JesusFreak78]

Right?
That's simply ridiculous...
Christ for example is the exact representation, He is NO icon.
The church is the elect or called out ones, how could that be an icon?

Exactly. It shouldn't be that hard to understand it.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Scripture is an icon.

--- If God's finger wrote on the tablets given to Moses, then shouldnt we reverence the words that the holy men of God wrote to us? If you cant read, the next best way to show a story is to paint it.

The church is an icon. ---- If Christ is the bridegroom and the church is the bride, then the ekklesia, the people of church and His bride, are the image of Christ

Christ is an icon. ---- “Christ is the icon of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation” (Col 1:15)

Buildings and worship are an icon. ---- and who serve unto the copy and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished by God when he was about to make the tabernacle. For, “See,” saith He, “that thou make all things according to the pattern shown to thee on the mount.” (Heb 8:15)

 

[simonthezealot]

Christ is an icon. ---- “Christ is the icon of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation” (Col 1:15)

He's the mold, not the plaster.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

῞Ος ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως,"

So you want to argue against Paul himself calling Christ the icon of the invisible God.

 

[simonthezealot]

῞Ος ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως,"

So you want to argue against Paul himself calling Christ the icon of the invisible God.

I'm telling you to understand the meaning of the context...
He is the EXACT representation...The mold NOT the plaster.
THE actual image! NOT a replica...
the very form of God (see php 2:6)