Icons...

[simonthezealot]

Well, yeah, I am sure that anyone who has followed this discussion knows what you think about Apostolic Succession in Catholicism and Orthodoxy. However, I was talking about the succession you presuppose from your ancient elect Proto-Protestants and Iconoclasts to you in your modern church of one.

I never claimed a succession of sorts, I was only to say that there have been "called out ones" since the beginning..

 

[Tzaousios]

I don't recall without pouring through my library whether Augustine wrote on image veneration. I'll take a look tomorrow.

Well, I want to save you the trouble if you are just going to ignore the fact that he was not an iconoclast. Will you remove Augustine from the succession of Proto-Protestants based upon what you find? Or, will you just plunder his writings for his soteriology and cast him aside after he has served his (your) purpose?

It's not only I who considered Epiphanius an iconoclast, the catholic church or at least ministries who defend Catholicism do as well.

You must mean that over a century ago, whoever wrote the particular article, based upon philology and not manuscript quellenforschungen, surmised that Epiphanius might have been an iconoclast or did not care for icons?

 

[Tzaousios]

I never claimed a succession of sorts, I was only to say that there have been "called out ones" since the beginning..

Then I do not understand how this sets your view apart from those whom you combat at every turn. The Catholics and Orthodox would not deny that there were and are called-out ones.

The question is, why do you insist on constructing a link between the called-out ones and iconoclasm, proto-Protestantism, and proto-Calvinism? That is why I said you presuppose a kind of succession from them to you.

 

[simonthezealot]

Well, I want to save you the trouble if you are just going to ignore the fact that he was not an iconoclast. Will you remove Augustine from the succession of Proto-Protestants based upon what you find? Or, will you just plunder his writings for his soteriology and cast him aside after he has served his (your) purpose?

I don't consider myself a protestant or Calvin or Augustin or Paul either.
I know i do not recall him advocating image worship, so how's that any diff than most Pauline Christians?

You must mean that over a century ago, whoever wrote the particular article, based upon philology and not manuscript quellenforschungen, surmised that Epiphanius might have been an iconoclast or did not care for icons?

No i didn't mean that.

 

[simonthezealot]

Then I do not understand how this sets your view apart from those whom you combat at every turn. The Catholics and Orthodox would not deny that there were and are called-out ones.

The question is, why do you insist on constructing a link between the called-out ones and iconoclasm, proto-Protestantism, and proto-Calvinism? That is why I said you presuppose a kind of succession from them to you.

I'm not trying to do that, as i have repeated consistently I am simply saying scripture and historic Christianity do NOT support the iconodules.

 

[Dorothea]

You must've missed all the documents and archeological finds about icons and murals and frescos in Jewish synagogues along with churches that have been brought up in here the past several pages. There has been so much material put forth in this thread, that it has buried the opposition, and I don't mean that smugly. Just an observation.

 

[simonthezealot]

You must've missed all the documents and archeological finds about icons and murals and frescos in Jewish synagogues along with churches that have been brought up in here the past several pages. There has been so much material put forth in this thread, that it has buried the opposition, and I don't mean that smugly. Just an observation.

Sister, I am well aware of cave paintings and such...But honestly so what?
If you think you have enough do a summary of the key points without making a 4000 word posts.

 

[Thekla]

Indeed, Synagogues were not devoid of images. (I've lost the link, but will try to find a lecture on the subject.)

This article claims the "bias" against images in Jewish Synagogue occurred in later centuries after Dura-Europa period, though per my research, the Jewish use of images continued well into the Byzantine era.
Synagogue Architecture and Interior Design - My Jewish Learning

 

[Fotina]

Christ in "extreme humility" icon:

We see the deprivation of His beauty (outside beauty) here ^

Christ the Bridegroom

Behold, the Bridegroom cometh in the middle of the night, and blessed is that servant whom He shall find watching; and again unworthy is he whom He shall find heedless. Beware, therefore, O my soul, lest thou be overcome with sleep, lest thou be given up to death, and be shut out from the Kingdom. But rouse thyself and cry: Holy, Holy, Holy art Thou, O God, through the Mother of God, have mercy on us.

The Bridegroom of the Church is transfixed with nails.

The Taking down from the Cross

The Noble Joseph, taking Thy most pure body down from the Tree and having wrapped it in pure linen and spices, laid it in a new tomb.

"On the throne above and in the tomb below"

Pantocrator

 

[Thekla]

Here's a link to part 1 of a lecture on ancient Synagogues:

Ancient Synagogues Part 1 - YouTube

subsequent sections can be found on-site.

 

[Dorothea]

Sister, I am well aware of cave paintings and such...But honestly so what?
If you think you have enough do a summary of the key points without making a 4000 word posts.

you wanted academic or historical evidence about images in the Churches. There you have it.

I would encourage you to read those articles I posted. They are quite informative! I've learned a lot. I want to thank you for challenging me and having me research so much on my own Church. Every time I do so, I learn more and become even more devoted to God and His Church.

 

[Dorothea]

Here's a link to part 1 of a lecture on ancient Synagogues:

Ancient Synagogues Part 1 - YouTube

subsequent sections can be found on-site.

Oooo! They have video too?! I'm going to watch now! Thanks, Thekla!

 

[Thekla]

Oooo! They have video too?! I'm going to watch now! Thanks, Thekla!

Just for convenience, here's part 2 and 3:

Ancient Synagogue Part 2 - YouTube

Ancient Synagogues Part 3 - YouTube

 

[Dorothea]

Just for convenience, here's part 2 and 3:

Ancient Synagogue Part 2 - YouTube

Ancient Synagogues Part 3 - YouTube

Thanks! The narrator couldn't be more boring, but the mosaics are awesome!

 

[OpenDoor]

I'm gonna post this once again.

Why do Catholics use statues and Orthodox do not?

 

[simonthezealot]

I'm gonna post this once again.

Why do Catholics use statues and Orthodox do not?

I think the EO consider it idolatry or image worship.


Why do Orthodox use Icons and Catholics do not?

 

[eachallberg]

1.) Are they contrary to scripture?

I think so, because we live by faith not by sight.

A blind person has absolutely no use for icons. I'm totally empathetic for them.

2.) While legend has it that Luke the evangelist started this tradition is there any evidence in the first few centuries that this was an action which was acceptable by the Christian community?

Learned something new.

3.) Does the fact that the Christian faith has had disputes over this issue over the centuries matter?

Yes, some are considerate and strict. Others are not and lax.

4.) What saith scripture?

'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for (the blind or ect...) one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

What does a blind person see?
Thats what I see.

Peace and grace be to all of you.

 

[simonthezealot]

you wanted academic or historical evidence about images in the Churches. There you have it.

I would encourage you to read those articles I posted. They are quite informative! I've learned a lot. I want to thank you for challenging me and having me research so much on my own Church. Every time I do so, I learn more and become even more devoted to God and His Church.

Where is the "there you have it" ?


We should all desire to understand the ways of God more and more..Bless you sister.

 

[eachallberg]

I think the EO consider it idolatry or image worship.


Why do Orthodox use Icons and Catholics do not?

EO? Early orthodox?

As far as I know RCs do use icons.

Peace.

 

[simonthezealot]

I think so, because we live by faith not by sight.

A blind person has absolutely no use for icons. I'm totally empathetic for them.



Learned something new.


Yes, some are considerate and strict. Others are not and lax.



'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for (the blind or ect...) one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

What does a blind person see?
Thats what I see.

Peace and grace be to all of you.

Blessings friend, Thanks for focusing on the OP.