• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

OpenDoor

Faith + Hope + Love
Apr 17, 2007
2,431
145
✟25,786.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

Dorothea

One of God's handmaidens
Jul 10, 2007
21,651
3,637
Colorado Springs, Colorado
✟274,013.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
So should such a person avoid icons?


In my opinion this happens more times then not. :sorry:

Should what such person? A person who tends to worship objects? :confused:

I wouldn't know how often it happens. I do know that people worship all kinds of worldly things.
 
Upvote 0

Dorothea

One of God's handmaidens
Jul 10, 2007
21,651
3,637
Colorado Springs, Colorado
✟274,013.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Thanks.
This is from the 2nd / 3rd century right?
Was this a Jewish or Christian community?

It's both:

"This gallery of 31 photos accompanies our article on Dura Europos in , Syria. This important archaeological site has been called the Pompeii of the Syrian Desert. It was abandoned in the 3rd century and is home to the oldest surviving house-church and synagogue ever found."

Photo Gallery: Dura Europos, Syria
 
Upvote 0

OpenDoor

Faith + Hope + Love
Apr 17, 2007
2,431
145
✟25,786.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This image is Mithraism?

Photo: Dura Europos, Syria

:confused:

Was this temple Gnostic?

Edit - I was clicking on the thumbnails and as soon as I saw this one I thought, "what image is that?" The subtext says its Mithras slaying the bull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries

The Christian apologist Justin Martyr wrote:
Wherefore also the evil demons in mimicry have handed down that the same thing should be done in the Mysteries of Mithras. For that bread and a cup of water are in these mysteries set before the initiate with certain speeches you either know or can learn.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries#cite_note-198
The Christian apologist Tertullian wrote that as a prelude to the Mithraic initiation ceremony, the initiate was given a ritual bath and at the end of the ceremony, received a mark on the forehead. Tertullian described these rites as a diabolical counterfeit of the baptism and chrismation of Christians.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Dorothea

One of God's handmaidens
Jul 10, 2007
21,651
3,637
Colorado Springs, Colorado
✟274,013.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
This image is Mithraism?

Photo: Dura Europos, Syria

:confused:

Was this temple Gnostic?

Edit - I was clicking on the thumbnails and as soon as I saw this one I thought, "what image is that?" The subtext says its Mithras slaying the bull.
Yes, that city, as the link I provided earlier explained, had Jews, Christians, and Pagans in it. So, of course, as the archaeologist, they point out all the artifacts they found in the city. :) So, I would think that was in a pagan temple or pagan home, not in the synagogue or church house. :)

Here's the history of Dura Europos:

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/syria/dura-europos
 
Upvote 0

OpenDoor

Faith + Hope + Love
Apr 17, 2007
2,431
145
✟25,786.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yes, that city, as the link I provided earlier explained, had Jews, Christians, and Pagans in it. So, of course, as the archaeologist, they point out all the artifacts they found in the city. :) So, I would think that was in a pagan temple or pagan home, not in the synagogue or church house. :)

Here's the history of Dura Europos:

Dura Europos, Syria
So its not from the same location?

Edit - Ok these are different places, before I was like :o
 
Upvote 0

Dorothea

One of God's handmaidens
Jul 10, 2007
21,651
3,637
Colorado Springs, Colorado
✟274,013.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
So its not from the same location?
Same location as in same building?

It says in the link I provided:

Dura was rebuilt as a great Hellenistic city in the 2nd century BC, with a rectangular grid of streets arranged around a large central agora, was formally laid out. Its location on a major crossroads made it a very cosmopolitan city: inscriptions in many languages have been found here and the religious buildings of pagans, Jews and Christians stand side by side.

Dura Europos later became a frontier fortress of the Parthian Empire and it was captured by the Romans in 165 AD. In the early 200s AD, the famed house-church and synagogue were built at Dura Europos. There was also a Mithraeum, a Temple of Bel and a Temple of Adonis in the multi-cultural city.

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/syria/dura-europos
 
Upvote 0

Fotina

Regular Member
Sep 17, 2004
687
78
✟1,217.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Again I never said that, I posted the Epiphanius quote to show some delicious irony, he was an iconoclast and yet your church has an icon of him...
He is probably doing flips in his grave about now.

Why don't you ask him? Holy Father, St Epiphanius, pray for us!

His life and writings were thoroughly tested and sifted for four centuries by the Church before being named a Father and Teacher of the Church. He is worthy!



250px-Epiphanius-Kosovo.jpg

Icon of St. Epiphanius (Gračanica monastery, Kosovo


St Epiphanius the Bishop of Cyprus
Commemorated on May 12

Saint Epiphanius, Bishop of Cyprus, "a last relic of ancient piety," as St. Jerome calls him, lived during the fourth century in Phoenicia. The Roman empress Honoria was his sister. He was of Jewish descent, and in his youth he received a fine education. He was converted to Christianity after seeing how a certain monk named Lucian gave away his clothing to a poor person. Struck by the monk's compassion, Epiphanius asked to be instructed in Christianity.

He was baptized and became a disciple of St. Hilarion the Great (October 21). Entering the monastery, he progressed in the monastic life under the guidance of the experienced Elder Hilarion, and he occupied himself with copying Greek books.

Because of his ascetic struggles and virtues, St. Epiphanius was granted the gift of wonderworking. In order to avoid human glory, he left the monastery and went into the Spanidrion desert. Robbers caught him there and held him captive for three months. By speaking of repentance, the saint brought one of the robbers to faith in the true God. When they released the holy ascetic, the robber also went with him. St. Epiphanius took him to his monastery and baptized him with the name John. From that time, he became a faithful disciple of St. Epiphanius, and he carefully documented the life and miracles of his instructor.

Reports of the righteous life of St. Epiphanius spread far beyond the monastery. The saint went a second time into the desert with his disciple John. Even in the wilderness disciples started to come to him, so he established a new monastery for them.

After a certain time, St. Epiphanius made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem to venerate its holy shrines, and then returned to the Spanidrion monastery. The people of Lycia sent the monk Polybios to St. Epiphanius asking him to take the place of their dead archpastor. When he learned of this intention, the clairvoyant ascetic secretly went into the Pathysian desert to the great ascetic St. Hilarion (October 21), under whose guidance he had learned asceticism in his youth.

The saints spent two months in prayer, and then Hilarion sent St. Epiphanius to Salamis. Bishops were gathered there to choose a new archpastor to replace one who recently died. The Lord revealed to the eldest of them, Bishop Papius, that St. Epiphanius should be chosen bishop. When Epiphanius arrived, St. Papius led him into the church, where in obedience to the will of the participants of the Council, Epiphanius agreed to be their bishop. St. Epiphanius was consecrated as Bishop of Salamis in 367.

St. Epiphanius won renown because of his great zeal for the Faith, his love and charity toward the poor, and his simplicity of character. He suffered much from the slander and enmity of some of his clergy. Because of the purity of his life, St. Epiphanius was permitted to see the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the Gifts at Divine Liturgy. Once, when the saint was celebrating the Mystery, he did not see this vision. He then became suspicious of one of the clergy and quietly said to him, "Depart, my son, for you are unworthy to participate in the celebration of the Mystery today."

At this point, the writings of his disciple John break off, because he became sick and died. The further record of the life of St. Epiphanius was continued by another of his disciples, Polybios (afterwards bishop of city of Rinocyreia).

Through the intrigues of the empress Eudoxia and the Patriarch Theophilos of Alexandria, towards the end of his life St. Epiphanius was summoned to Constantinople to participate in the Synod of the Oak, which was convened to judge the great saint, John Chrysostom (September 14 and November 13). Once he realized that he was being manipulated by Chrysostom's enemies, St. Epiphanius left Constantinople, unwilling to take part in an unlawful council.

As he was sailing home on a ship, the saint sensed the approach of death, and he gave his disciples final instructions: to keep the commandments of God, and to preserve the mind from impure thoughts. He died two days later. The people of Salamis met the body of their archpastor with carriages, and on May 12, 403 they buried him in a new church which he himself had built.

The Seventh Ecumenical Council named St. Epiphanius as a Father and Teacher of the Church. In the writings of St. Epiphanius, the PANARIUM and the ANCHORATUS are refutations of Arianism and other heresies. In his other works are found valuable church traditions, and directives for the Greek translation of the Bible.

In his zeal to preserve the purity of the Orthodox Faith, St. Epiphanius could sometimes be rash and tactless. In spite of any impetuous mistakes he may have made, we must admire St. Epiphanius for his dedication in defending Orthodoxy against false teachings. After all, one of the bishop's primary responsibilities is to protect his flock from those who might lead them astray.

We also honor St. Epiphanius for his deep spirituality, and for his almsgiving. No one surpassed him in his tenderness and charity to the poor, and he gave vast sums of money to those in need.

Troparion - Tone 4


O God of our Fathers,
always act with kindness towards us;
take not Your mercy from us,
but guide our lives in peace
through the prayers of the hierarchs Epiphanius and Germanus.

Kontakion - Tone 4

Podoben: "As You were voluntarily raised..."
With faith, let us praise the pair of wonderful hierarchs,
the divine Epiphanius and Germanus,
for they subdued the godless pagans
by proclaiming the wisest teachings to all,
ever chanting the great mystery of piety in an Orthodox manner.
 
Upvote 0

Dorothea

One of God's handmaidens
Jul 10, 2007
21,651
3,637
Colorado Springs, Colorado
✟274,013.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
So its not from the same location?

Edit - Ok these are different places, before I was like :o

^_^ That would be akin to the multicultural "churches" today, huh? ^_^ j/k :sorry:
 
Upvote 0

Philothei

Love never fails
Nov 4, 2006
44,893
3,220
Northeast, USA
✟83,209.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
What about the burning bush as an icon?
Edit - Do Orthodox believe the burning bush was physical or only spiritual / a vision?
Yep the physical and spiritual are together. Yes it was a divine manisfestation. St Gregory of Nyssa wrote on this very "event" of the burning bush. That was accomplished by the "divine energies" of God. It is the same as a divine revelation that experienced many prophets. This divine encounter was unique to Moses though as the Israelites had no idea about it. So there is not reason for us to believe that it was an absolute "physical experience" to the rest of the people.


Monachos.net - Gregory of Nyssa: Luminous Darkness
 
Upvote 0

simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
Apr 17, 2006
16,461
1,919
Minnesota
✟35,153.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Because he and most Protestants are, I would imagine. There is a direct line of succession from the early Proto-Protestants of antiquity to simonthezealot.
Apostolic succession is a joke, if the successors follow not the words given by the HS through the apostles and disciples.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JesusFreak78
Upvote 0

Dorothea

One of God's handmaidens
Jul 10, 2007
21,651
3,637
Colorado Springs, Colorado
✟274,013.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Fortunately, the EOC has followed and preserved the teachings of the Apostles and disciples. :D

Boy, this archaeological discovery is quite amazing! I wonder what will be found next! Too cool!
 
Upvote 0

Tzaousios

Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός
Dec 4, 2008
8,504
609
Comitatus in praesenti
Visit site
✟34,229.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Again I never said that, I posted the Epiphanius quote to show some delicious irony, he was an iconoclast and yet your church has an icon of him...

He is probably doing flips in his grave about now.

Ha! Since you are so convinced he was a genuined iconoclast (another presupposition is formed), is he also grandfathered in to your collection of elect Proto-Protestants?

Speaking of delicious irony, you suspiciously ignored my earlier question about Augustine. Want to take a crack at answering it now?

No, I would say that Augustine of Hippo is the "most well known" of early Christian authors, if I had to narrow it down to one. He did not reject religious iconography. He did not use Old Testament laws prohibiting idolatry to try rhetorically to demonize the practice of painting or venerating them. How do you reconcile this fact with your plundering of his soteriological views and grandfathering him in as an elect Proto-Calvinist?
 
Upvote 0

simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
Apr 17, 2006
16,461
1,919
Minnesota
✟35,153.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Ha! Since you are so convinced he was a genuined iconoclast (another presupposition is formed), is he also grandfathered in to your collection of elect Proto-Protestants?

Speaking of delicious irony, you suspiciously ignored my earlier question about Augustine. Want to take a crack at answering it now?
I don't recall without pouring through my library whether Augustine wrote on image veneration. I'll take a look tomorrow.

It's not only I who considered Epiphanius an iconoclast, the catholic church or at least ministries who defend Catholicism do as well.
 
Upvote 0

Tzaousios

Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός
Dec 4, 2008
8,504
609
Comitatus in praesenti
Visit site
✟34,229.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Tzaousios said:
Because he and most Protestants are, I would imagine. There is a direct line of succession from the early Proto-Protestants of antiquity to simonthezealot.
Apostolic succession is a joke, if the successors follow not the words given by the HS through the apostles and disciples.

Well, yeah, I am sure that anyone who has followed this discussion knows what you think about Apostolic Succession in Catholicism and Orthodoxy. However, I was talking about the succession you presuppose from your ancient elect Proto-Protestants and Iconoclasts to you in your modern church of one.
 
Upvote 0