Icons...

[Fotina]

Define you meaning in "The Church"
I am FOR the TRUTH.

"Thy word is truth"

The Church that defended in council and blood of the martyrs, the Truth of the Holy Trinity, of Christ's divinity and humanity, of His Incarnation of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, Who became man for our salvation, of the canon of the NT, of sacred images...that Church.

 

[simonthezealot]

The Church that defended in council and blood of the martyrs, the Truth of the Holy Trinity, of Christ's divinity and humanity, of His Incarnation of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, Who became man for our salvation, of the canon of the NT, of sacred images...that Church.

Oh so not "the church" of the NT that is the ecclesia-elect-the called out ones, the body of believers?
It's the one that held to differing canons and differing views on images and differing views on justification and atonement? the one with differing view on easter, on differing views on the authority of the bishop of Rome...That one?

 

[Thekla]

Oh so not "the church" of the NT that is the ecclesia-elect-the called out ones, the body of believers?
It's the one that held to differing canons and differing views on images and differing views on justification and atonement? the one with differing view on easter, on differing views on the authority of the bishop of Rome...That one?

The Ekklesia that upholds the truth and held out against the influence of Islam on Christianity; who defied the syncretising influence of the Islamic attempt to define Christians as "the people of the book" (which can equally be translated "the people of the Bible"), and as like Islam, against images.

 

[Fotina]

Oh so not "the church" of the NT that is the ecclesia-elect-the called out ones, the body of believers?
It's the one that held to differing canons and differing views on images and differing views on justification and atonement? the one with differing view on easter, on differing views on the authority of the bishop of Rome...That one?

No, is that your church? The Holy Orthodox Church has been defending and proclaiming the Truth since 33 A.D.

 

[Fotina]

The beauty of Orthodox worship converted pagan Russia.

In 987 A.D. pagan Russian Prince Vladimir sent envoys out in search of a noble religion worthy of his adoption. These Russian envoys recorded their impression of the Christian worship at Constantinople’s Orthodox Cathedral, the Hagia Sophia. The envoys stated “We knew not whether we were in heaven or earth …

Look up at Cathedral Interior of Holy Trinity Monastery, Jordanville, New York.

Novodevichy Monastery. Moscva. Russia

 

[simonthezealot]

Oh so not "the church" of the NT that is the ecclesia-elect-the called out ones, the body of believers?

No, is that your church?

No it is Christ's church.

 

[JesusFreak78]

No it is Christ's church.

QFT!

 

[Fotina]

It's the one that held to differing canons and differing views on images and differing views on justification and atonement? the one with differing view on easter, on differing views on the authority of the bishop of Rome...That one?

No, is that your church? The Holy Orthodox Church has been defending and proclaiming the Truth since 33 A.D.

No .

Yep, yours is the church that did not defend and proclaim Truth or shed its blood since it did not exist.

The Holy Orthodox Church is Christ's Church and has been defending and proclaiming since 33 A.D against pagans, heretics, godless regimes, and worse, the Truth of Christ that today's Christians take for granted: like the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation of Christ, His divinity and humanity, the NT, and holy icons. It is Undisputable fact and the blood of martyrs to prove it!

 

[Dorothea]

Yep, yours is the church that did not defend and proclaim Truth or shed its blood since it did not exist.

The Holy Orthodox Church has been defending and proclaiming since 33 A.D against pagans, heretics, godless regimes, and worse, the Truth of Christ that today's Christians take for granted: like the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation of Christ, His divinity and humanity, the NT, and holy icons. It is Undisputable fact and the blood of martyrs to prove it!

History shows this.

 

[Kristos]

Oh so not "the church" of the NT that is the ecclesia-elect-the called out ones, the body of believers?
It's the one that held to differing canons and differing views on images and differing views on justification and atonement? the one with differing view on easter, on differing views on the authority of the bishop of Rome...That one?

No denying that there have been controversies. The iconoclast controversy was especially hard on the Church. But in the end there can be only one - one truth, one faith, one body, one church. You seem to think that the Church made a mistake and that the iconclasts were correct. Along with that you must accept that this view puts you outside the one Church, especially since there is no iconoclast church that survived the last 1400 years. On other issues, you could perhaps make this argument - Papal supremacy for example - or non-Chalcedonians or even Nestorians. They have survived since their schism, so I could accept that you think you are part of the one Church if you were in Communion with them. In this case, iconoclasm essentially disappeared after the controversy was resolved. There was no schism of an iconoclastic church that has survived. The resurrection of the iconoclast mind is simply that - it's not a continuation of anything, it's the revival of an old heresy, like the Unitarians or new-age Gnosticism. There is nothing new here. All of these arguments were made and the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit rejected them in the 7th Ecumenical council, which still stands as the Triumph of Orthodoxy. They weren't confused, they weren't ignorant - they knew what was right - they knew the faith and they defended it.

 

[simonthezealot]

No denying that there have been controversies. The iconoclast controversy was especially hard on the Church. But in the end there can be only one - one truth, one faith, one body, one church. You seem to think that the Church made a mistake and that the iconclasts were correct. Along with that you must accept that this view puts you outside the one Church, especially since there is no iconoclast church that survived the last 1400 years. On other issues, you could perhaps make this argument - Papal supremacy for example - or non-Chalcedonians or even Nestorians. They have survived since their schism, so I could accept that you think you are part of the one Church if you were in Communion with them. In this case, iconoclasm essentially disappeared after the controversy was resolved. There was no schism of an iconoclastic church that has survived. The resurrection of the iconoclast mind is simply that - it's not a continuation of anything, it's the revival of an old heresy, like the Unitarians or new-age Gnosticism. There is nothing new here. All of these arguments were made and the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit rejected them in the 7th Ecumenical council, which still stands as the Triumph of Orthodoxy. They weren't confused, they weren't ignorant - they knew what was right - they knew the faith and they defended it.

If i am heretical to the church that promotes icon doctrines I am okay with that, because I think the icons are heretic to the written word of God.

 

[Dorothea]

No denying that there have been controversies. The iconoclast controversy was especially hard on the Church. But in the end there can be only one - one truth, one faith, one body, one church. You seem to think that the Church made a mistake and that the iconclasts were correct. Along with that you must accept that this view puts you outside the one Church, especially since there is no iconoclast church that survived the last 1400 years. On other issues, you could perhaps make this argument - Papal supremacy for example - or non-Chalcedonians or even Nestorians. They have survived since their schism, so I could accept that you think you are part of the one Church if you were in Communion with them. In this case, iconoclasm essentially disappeared after the controversy was resolved. There was no schism of an iconoclastic church that has survived. The resurrection of the iconoclast mind is simply that - it's not a continuation of anything, it's the revival of an old heresy, like the Unitarians or new-age Gnosticism. There is nothing new here. All of these arguments were made and the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit rejected them in the 7th Ecumenical council, which still stands as the Triumph of Orthodoxy. They weren't confused, they weren't ignorant - they knew what was right - they knew the faith and they defended it.

Good points, Kristos. I notice on this forum there is much scolding and preaching to the EO (and the Catholics for that matter) about what they do wrong and how these rebukers are the right ones...have it all correct. I find that very ironic if that's the right word. This coming from other groups who have adopted these incorrect teachings that were resolved, as you said, around 1400 years ago. Ignorance seems to be the main reason, but invincible ignorance also can be part of it.

 

[Fotina]

If i am heretical to the church that promotes icon doctrines I am okay with that, because I think the icons are heretic to the written word of God.

Lord have mercy.

 

[Dorothea]

If i am heretical to the church that promotes icon doctrines I am okay with that, because I think the icons are heretic to the written word of God.

Sola Scriptura is nonbiblical - heretical.
Against infant baptism - heretical from 16th century.
Chiliaism - heretical teaching from 4th century.
Against the belief that Mary is the Mother of God - Christ God the Second Person of the Trinity - heretical.
Total Depravity - heretical.
Believing one only needs their minds/intellect and "spirit" and not the whole body to worship God - gnosticism.
Bible Alone - man-made tradition - strange doctrine warned about in the Bible.
Christomonism - distorted beliefs due to distortion of the Trinity.
Pre-trib Rapture - man-made, dangerous doctrine.
Believing images are idol worship or not permitted - pagan and islamic beliefs. Not Christian.

There are many things some Protestant communities have adopted that are heretical. So, the fact that you think something is heretical from the Church of Christ that has preserved His teachings since the beginning, really doesn't hold much water to us.

 

[Thekla]

If i am heretical to the church that promotes icon doctrines I am okay with that, because I think the icons are heretic to the written word of God.

The logos, the graphe ?

We of course disagree on both counts; in fact, we are not willing to call God "a heretic" for commanding images in the Temple.

 

[JesusFreak78]

The Holy Orthodox Church is Christ's Church and has been defending and proclaiming since 33 A.D against pagans, heretics, godless regimes, and worse, the Truth of Christ that today's Christians take for granted: like the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation of Christ, His divinity and humanity, the NT, and holy icons. It is Undisputable fact and the blood of martyrs to prove it!

Wrong. Christ's church is the body of Christ which is the elect, the people who Christ has redeemed for Himself.

 

[JesusFreak78]

It is Undisputable fact and the blood of martyrs to prove it!

You have martyrs in all kinds of religions and causes, so that alone doesn't prove anything.

 

[Dylan Michael]

Sola Scriptura is nonbiblical - heretical.
Against infant baptism - heretical from 16th century.
Chiliaism - heretical teaching from 4th century.
Against the belief that Mary is the Mother of God - Christ God the Second Person of the Trinity - heretical.
Total Depravity - heretical.
Believing one only needs their minds/intellect and "spirit" and not the whole body to worship God - gnosticism.
Bible Alone - man-made tradition - strange doctrine warned about in the Bible.
Christomonism - distorted beliefs due to distortion of the Trinity.
Pre-trib Rapture - man-made, dangerous doctrine.
Believing images are idol worship or not permitted - pagan and islamic beliefs. Not Christian.

There are many things some Protestant communities have adopted that are heretical. So, the fact that you think something is heretical from the Church of Christ that has preserved His teachings since the beginning, really doesn't hold much water to us.

 

[Dorothea]

Wrong. Christ's church is the body of Christ which is the elect, the people who Christ has redeemed for Himself.

Except the Scriptures and history do show the Church was One in mind and spirit. They were all believing the same thing. It still remains today due to Christ's promise. As far as those outside of His Church, the Holy Spirit certainly works where He wishes.

 

[Dylan Michael]

If icons and images are Heretical, then why do all of the ancient churches (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox) use them?