I would like to make a suggestion . . . .

[IamAdopted]

No one can be a co redeemer.. For it is Christ alone that can redeem.. The Holy SPirit can draw us to Christ and He does.. But it is In Christ shed blood alone that any redemption comes.. It is in being born again that we have eternal life.. We are just vessels of God.

 

[TheListener]

No one can be a co redeemer.. For it is Christ alone that can redeem.. The Holy SPirit can draw us to Christ and He does.. But it is In Christ shed blood alone that any redemption comes.. It is in being born again that we have eternal life.. We are just vessels of God.

This may be your definition but the Church has seen it differently for 2000 years. Doesn't this mean anything to you? Are we to say the Church was in error for all this time?

 

[Uphill Battle]

This may be your definition but the Church has seen it differently for 2000 years. Doesn't this mean anything to you? Are we to say the Church was in error for all this time?

It hasn't been established with any credibility that what is taught now has been taught for 2000 years.

 

[TheListener]

Sure. We can discard the ECF's works and rely on empirical evidence that can be tested with todays standards. In which case we should all become atheists too.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Sure. We can discard the ECF's works and rely on empirical evidence that can be tested with todays standards. In which case we should all become atheists too.

Red herring.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Your pastor is a co-redeemer to you if he brings you the Gospel & points you towards Jesus.

Well, thats all it is. The Catholic term of co-redeemer and the protestant term co-redeemer are two different things. Maybe you should stop reading anti-Catholic hate propaganda and read what the RCC really teaches about these things.

You mean anybody who helps people get saved can be co-redeemer according to Catholic dogma? Well then shoot, why not actually go ahead and make the co-redemption of the Blessed Virgin a dogma already...

I want to be a co-redeemer!

I've helped people come to Christ before, so I guess I am a co-redeemer. Heck, I've help agnostics become Catholics...

From now on, everyone shall address me as the Blessed GratiaCorpusChristi, Co-Redemptrix.

 

[racer]

I am not offended, by Protestant disagreements on the Catholic Church's teaching on Mary, or anyone of the contested Catholic teachings. As someone raised Protestant, I can relate.

It's terminology, like Mary worshippers, statue kissers, harlot of Babylon...etc...that I think is extereme, and moves the debate from a discussion on differences on doctrinal, to one of slanderous speech.

And to be fair, I have sit on this side of the screen and just cringed, with some of the Catholic behaivor as well....if someone, on both sides of the debate, can't state their case, without name calling. Then maybe, it's time to remove themselves from the debate, and spend time in prayer.

BTW, great thread.

Peace be with you....Pam

Thank you. That was the point I was trying to make, that there is a difference between asserting disagreement with Marian beliefs in a respectful way and stating assertions in rude and disrespectful ways.

I do acknowledge that some people are just offensive, but I've also noticed that in spite of how politely someone expresses his disagreement there are some who are just determined to be offended.

God bless!

 

[racer]

Once again any type of co-redeemer verbage, really to me denies the nature in which the blood of Christ was shed on the cross.

Well, I don't think we really have the right to tell each other that the particular verbage of our faiths is not what we say it is. How many discussions have you participated in regarding Sola Scriptura, and no matter how many times you explain what it means, someone who doesn't even adhere to SS insists that it means something else? We do this to each other on a regular basis and get nowhere because of it.

In a sense, the sense that Listener is explaining it, we could refer to our church leaders, Sunday School teachers . . . and Mary as "co-redeemers." What I think the question now becomes: Is that what the RCC means when it employs the term? I think that's something we'll have to depend on other knowledgeable Catholics to tell us or else check the Catechism.

 

[racer]

This may be your definition but the Church has seen it differently for 2000 years. Doesn't this mean anything to you? Are we to say the Church was in error for all this time?

Not the "Church" as a whole, just certain Christian teachers erred throughout. Not all ECFs believed or taught what you are asserting.

What I won't quibble with you over is what you assert and affirm that your Church teaches and how it employs terminology now---TODAY--as long as you can support your claims with clear Catholic doctrine.

 

[racer]

Sure. We can discard the ECF's works and rely on empirical evidence that can be tested with todays standards. In which case we should all become atheists too.

That's where the Bible comes in handy . . . . We don't have to rely on the ECFs to know about God.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

You mean anybody who helps people get saved can be co-redeemer according to Catholic dogma? Well then shoot, why not actually go ahead and make the co-redemption of the Blessed Virgin a dogma already...

I want to be a co-redeemer!

I've helped people come to Christ before, so I guess I am a co-redeemer. Heck, I've help agnostics become Catholics...

From now on, everyone shall address me as the Blessed GratiaCorpusChristi, Co-Redemptrix.

Actually, from my experience, some Catholics DO speak in just such ways...

 

[simonthezealot]

In a sense, the sense that Listener is explaining it, we could refer to our church leaders, Sunday School teachers . . . and Mary as "co-redeemers." .

NO!
Scripture says this...
Eph 2:10, For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
My pastor has nothing to do with helping redeem me nor does Mary or anyone other than Christ...

joh 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[TheListener]

NO!
Scripture says this...
Eph 2:10, For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
My pastor has nothing to do with helping redeem me nor does Mary or anyone other than Christ...

joh 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Yeah but something or someone pointed you to Jesus in the first place, right?

 

[sunlover1]

Yeah but something or someone pointed you to Jesus in the first place, right?

1 Corinthians 3:6-7
6 I have planted, Apollos watered;
but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing,
neither he that watereth;
but God that giveth the increase.

 

[TheListener]

That's where the Bible comes in handy . . . . We don't have to rely on the ECFs to know about God.

Not about God, about Christianity.

 

[Rick Otto]

racer, y'all hollered:
"Well, I don't think we really have the right to tell each other that the particular verbage of our faiths is not what we say it is. How many discussions have you participated in regarding Sola Scriptura, and no matter how many times you explain what it means, someone who doesn't even adhere to SS insists that it means something else? We do this to each other on a regular basis and get nowhere because of it."
>>We get to know each other.
What Christianity means to us, each other. Even when I'm fiercely debating, I am at peace with & totaly enjoying the fact, that I'm communicating with another human being who feels as passionately as I do about God, however we think we know Him.
.........................................................................................
...& then she whispered:
"In a sense, the sense that Listener is explaining it, we could refer to our church leaders, Sunday School teachers . . . and Mary as "co-redeemers." What I think the question now becomes: Is that what the RCC means when it employs the term? I think that's something we'll have to depend on other knowledgeable Catholics to tell us or else check the Catechism."
>>>It's online!

...but I couldn't find "co-redemptress" there in their search bar.

This excerpt from an article on the rosary was the only mention I could find in the online Catholic Encyclopedia:
2. The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. Now, this merciful office of hers, perhaps, appears in no other form of prayer so manifestly as it does in the Rosary. For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our co-Redemptress comes to us, as it were, set forth, and in such wise as though the facts were even then taking place; and this with much profit to our piety, whether in the contemplation of the succeeding sacred mysteries, or in the prayers which we speak and repeat with the lips. First come the Joyful Mysteries. The Eternal Son of God stoops to mankind, putting on its nature; but with the assent of Mary, who conceives Him by the Holy Ghost. Then St. John the Baptist, by a singular privilege, is sanctified in his mother's womb and favored with special graces that he might prepare the way of the Lord; and this comes to pass by the greeting of Mary who had been inspired to visit her cousin. At last the expected of nations comes to light, Christ the Savior. The Virgin bears Him. And when the Shepherds and the wise men, first-fruits of the Christian faith, come with longing to His cradle, they find there the young Child, with Mary, His Mother. Then, that He might before men offer Himself as a victim to His Heavenly Father, He desires to be taken to the Temple; and by the hands of Mary He is there presented to the Lord. It is Mary who, in the mysterious losing of her Son, seeks Him sorrowing, and finds Him again with joy. And the same truth is told again in the sorrowful mysteries.

It was The Holy Spirit that pointed me to Him.

 

[racer]

Not about God, about Christianity.

Well, the Bible tells us about that, too. However, I was responding to your suggestion that if we can't depend upon ECFs to tell us about the Church, we might as well become atheists.

 

[simonthezealot]

Yeah but something or someone pointed you to Jesus in the first place, right?

Something?
It is God who:
- draws people to Him
John 6:44
44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65
65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."


Appoints people to believe.
Acts 13:48 (New International Version)
48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed

Chooses who is to be holy and blameless.
Ephesians 1:4 (New International Version)
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love


Calls according to His use.
2 Timothy 1:9 (New International Version)
9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

(Eph 1:11 New International Version)

- predestines us according to His purpose.
11In him we were also chosen,[a] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

 

[NewToLife]

Something?
It is God who:
- draws people to Him
John 6:44
44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65
65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."


Appoints people to believe.
Acts 13:48 (New International Version)
48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed

Chooses who is to be holy and blameless.
Ephesians 1:4 (New International Version)
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love


Calls according to His use.
2 Timothy 1:9 (New International Version)
9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

(Eph 1:11 New International Version)

- predestines us according to His purpose.
11In him we were also chosen,[a] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Do you know what a false dichotomy is?

 

[simonthezealot]

Do you know what a false dichotomy is?

Yes, whats your bogus dilemma?