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I would like to debate the evidence for evolution!

MetalGreymon

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I don't find the acceptance of evolution to be incompatible with belief in God but there are many who do.
I would like to speak to them. I will be providing evidence for evolution and you will be responsible for providing a superior explanation of that evidence from a creation perspective.

We'll begin with the fossil record.
Using an evolutionary model we would expect to see life on earth going from less complex to more complex as adaptations compound. If we look at the fossil record, this is exactly what we see. Simple invertebrates to fish to reptiles to mammals and so on. And while we do of course see simple organisms coexisting with complex ones ( just look at an earth worm) we never see something like a ichthyosaur in a fossil bed with trilobites. Nowhere. Ever.

From a creation standpoint where the animals were created at around the same time we would expect to see animals at all stages of complexity mixed together. And yet we find these fossil beds with exclusively “simple” organisms.
 

Humble Servant of Christ

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I don't find the acceptance of evolution to be incompatible with belief in God but there are many who do.
I would like to speak to them. I will be providing evidence for evolution and you will be responsible for providing a superior explanation of that evidence from a creation perspective.

We'll begin with the fossil record.
Using an evolutionary model we would expect to see life on earth going from less complex to more complex as adaptations compound. If we look at the fossil record, this is exactly what we see. Simple invertebrates to fish to reptiles to mammals and so on. And while we do of course see simple organisms coexisting with complex ones ( just look at an earth worm) we never see something like a ichthyosaur in a fossil bed with trilobites. Nowhere. Ever.

From a creation standpoint where the animals were created at around the same time we would expect to see animals at all stages of complexity mixed together. And yet we find these fossil beds with exclusively “simple” organisms.
Which of the 3 seperates tenants of evolution would you like to debate. 1) Natural Selection 2) Micro Evolution or 3) Macro Evolution?
 
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MetalGreymon

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Which of the 3 seperates tenants of evolution would you like to debate. 1) Natural Selection 2) Micro Evolution or 3) Macro Evolution?


Well i don't agree that macro and micro evolution are different so not that lol.
What i would like to discuss is the evidence for evolution. I have provided one example of evidence. If you are willing, I would like for you to provide an explanation for that evidence from a creation perspective. That is to say a perspective wherein you hold that God created the animals in their present form at around the same time.
 
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Speedwell

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Which of the 3 seperates tenants of evolution would you like to debate. 1) Natural Selection 2) Micro Evolution or 3) Macro Evolution?
The processes involven in macro evolution and micro evolution are not qualitatively different, so the distinction is not an important one.
Natural selection is important, but you left the other important one out: variation. Reproductive variation is what gives natural selection a range of types to select from. Without variation, there is no evolution.
 
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Humble Servant of Christ

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The processes involven in macro evolution and micro evolution are not qualitatively different, so the distinction is not an important one.
Natural selection is important, but you left the other important one out: variation. Reproductive variation is what gives natural selection a range of types to select from. Without variation, there is no evolution.
Macro and micro evolution is very different. The differention is that macro evolution staes that species can create new species. Macro evolution means that fish and mammals are related even though they have completely different respiratory systems. Macro evolution means that a rosebush and a dog are related by a common ancestor. Micro evolution relates to variations and variety within a species group. It does not mean species migrate to completely new species groups. They are not in any way the same. Natural selection and micro evolution has been observed in nature. Micor evolution and natural selection starts with diverse complete life. Macro evolution relies on non living matter forming complex living cells independent of any outside force. I am sorry but they are different and can be mutually exclusive. Even Darwin makes these distinctions.
 
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Speedwell

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Macro and micro evolution is very different. The differention is that macro evolution staes that species can create new species. Macro evolution means that fish and mammals are related even though they have completely different respiratory systems. Macro evolution means that a rosebush and a dog are related by a common ancestor. Micro evolution relates to variations and variety within a species group. It does not mean species migrate to completely new species groups. They are not in any way the same. Natural selection and micro evolution has been observed in nature. Micor evolution and natural selection starts with diverse complete life.
But the underlying process--random variation and natural selection--is the same in both cases.
Macro evolution relies on non living matter forming complex living cells independent of any outside force.
No, that's a different feild of study called Abiogenesis. Evolution cannot begin until there is cellurlar life capable of reproducing with variation.
I am sorry but they are different and can be mutually exclusive. Even Darwin makes these distinctions.
Reference, please.
 
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LoricaLady

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Those who promote evolution - like my own self in the past - are real convinced that they are the scientific ones. Are they? Let's start with the "Bible" of evolutionism, The Origin of Species. Maybe because it is so mind numbingly boring, people rarely notice something, namely that it never shows the origin of anything! Darwin's finch beaks are supposed to support goo through the zoo to you, but what do they really show? Zero.
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Research reveals that the beaks grow back and forth in size depending on climate variations. The evidence that finches or Galapagos Island Turtles et al have ever been or ever will be anything but finches, G.I. turtles et al? Zero again.
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But if you can provide data that they "evolved" from something else, please do so. Not theories presented as evidence, now, but scientific data.
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Oh, and btw, as usual in evolutionary theory you are being told one thing while the opposite is true, as about natural selection. It does not lead to evolution as Darwin claimed. It only shuffles, or sometimes eliminates, pre existing information that has always been in the genes. It never creates new DNA as would be necessary, for ex., to turn a fin into a foot or a leg into a wing. Nothing ever observed creates new DNA. All DNA is just a copy of a copy of a copy which can be altered by things like mutations.
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Beneficial mutations? They are said to be the second force for evolution. However, Charles Muller, who won a Nobel Prize for his work on them, said "The good ones are so rare that we can consider them all bad."
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Darwin was nothing but an armchair theorist who, unlike his contemporary Mendel, never supported his theory through the scientific method and cast doubts on it himself. Yet he is an icon of evolution, like another contemporary, a lawyer named George Lyell, who came up with the totally fictional Geologic Column.
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The GC exists only in art work. The real evidence? Fossils are jumbled, in no neatly organized pattern whatsoever. There really are no such things as Cambrian, Jurassic, and so on "periods." Like the GC those are just fictions presented as facts. Giant shark fossils are found with dino fossils in Montana, for ex. Whales' fossils are found in wildly improbable places like the Andes mountains, the Sahara and a desert in Chile. Deep sea "Cambrian" fossils, such as sea shells and mollusks, are found at every level on the planet, including on most mountain tops - like the world's highest, the Himalayans. Fossils of ocean floor trilobites are found in the hills of mid America and countless other places world wide, high and far inland.
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Take a look. See the ocean floor dwelling, now extinct, trilobites found on mountain tops all over the world. trilobites On Mountains - Bing images Notice the exquisitely preserved details on many.
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Now some claim "plate tectonics" moved vast stretches of ocean dwelling, bottom floor, marine life fossils to travel for millions of years and then wrap around the tops of mountains, completely intact and with perfect detail as you see in the link. It's like they never heard of erosion. Others claim, "Well, if there are whale fossils in the Sahara, and Nautilus fossils in the Grand Canyon, etc. that shows an ocean was present." Oceans don't create fossils! Fossils are created when life forms are rapidly buried with water and sediment. That way no animals can eat them, natural forces can't erode them, and the chemistry of fossilization can begin
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(And please do not send me a post quoting Talk Origins, which I call Talk Spin. Yes, I know that they claim to to have found one GC on this entire, vast, planet. But they didn't. If you will check thoroughly you will see them saying "Some of the strata are out of place", i.e. there ain't any GC there, either. I am very familiar with TO. They have no problems with flat out lying and are not even an authentic science source. If you can find an authentic science source that shows a GC, include that with a link to a photo. Then explain why the rest of the planet shows the exact opposite of a GC. My experience is that knowledgeable evolution defending people will say "Well, the GC is just a model. We know none really exists." When I ask "How can you make a model of something that has no evidence whatsoever that it existed?" they don't respond.)
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The Bible says that flood waters completely covered the whole earth after, for one thing, "the fountains of the deep broke forth." (Did you know there is an ocean below our commonly known oceans, or have you seen the mid Atlantic ridge which looks like it used to be a great crack on the ocean floor? Probably not.). The fossil record shows that marine life fossils are at every level on the planet, everywhere around the globe, and that, in fact, over 75% of the fossils on land are marine. And they say the Bible is not historical and not backed by science. And btw there are almost 300 Great Flood legends around the world. Even the one by the Aborigines of Australia is highly similar to what the Bible reports.
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So you've been told a book showed the origin of species, but it didn't. You've been told G.I. animals show evolution but they only show they are having, at most, minimal changes that leave them basically what they were before.
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You were told there is a Geological Column, but there is not one on the planet. You're told over and over that natural selection shows evolutionism when it actually just somewhat modifies the organism through shifting already present information, or sometimes through loss of information, in the genomes, leaving it essentially what it was before. It may eventually become a new species of fish, or bee, or tree, etc., but it will always stay a fish, a bee or a tree etc. We see no evidence whatsoever of any species moving up to the next step on the Animal (ditto for plants) Kingdom, to become a new genus.
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In the real world we see new species but we never, ever see a species turning into a different genus. Yet that would have had to have happened for evolution to occur, and it is claimed, with no evidence whatsoever, that it did happen over and over and over.
We have trillions of life forms out there. So why don't we see mutations causing any Lifeform of genus A to turn into a Lifeform of genus B? After all, their ancestors have supposedly had hundreds of millions of Darwin years to make the switch and be moving around as part A and part B. But fish are staying fish, birds and are staying birds, flowers are staying flowers, mold is staying mold, trees are staying trees, monkeys are staying monkeys, bacteria are staying bacteria, etc., no matter how much they change
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What else does evolutionism offer besides unsubstantiated theories, in fact theories that defy the real evidence, presented as facts? Logical fallacies. Logical fallacies always, always, undergird evolutionism defense.
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The favorites are Correlation Does Not Imply Causation and Presuming Omniscience, though it uses many.
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Correlation Does Not Imply Causation goes like this: "Look! Fossil A has some similarities to Fossil B! We'll use big words to sound impressive about that, like 'similar homology.' We have exactly zero evidence Fossil A even had a descendant, much less one significantly different from it, much less that it turned into B, C, D etc. But we are going to tell you, as gawd's truth scientific fact, that we know all about what happened to its evidenceless, unverifiable descendants. We'll call that science."
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This leads right into the Presuming Omniscience logical fallacy. Another example of a use of that fallacy is when an evolutionary paleontologist will pick up a fossil from the ground and tell you with absolute authority that they know all about what happened to it's invisible "descendants" in the untestable past - for over 100 million Darwin years.
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"Missing links" is a Presuming Omniscience logical fallacy phrase. How do you tell missing links from never existed links? Have...faith...brothers and sisters! And be so grateful that YOU ain't religious!
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Learn how to spot logical fallacies and you will see them used in every defense in evolutionary literature.
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Ignoring the actual data is also part of evolutionism. For just one of innumerable examples, they say life can come from inorganic matter (and don't say they do not - who came up with the antiscientific primal pond, creationists?) The data, what real science uses, shows life, always and only, comes from life and life of the same kind.
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Pile theories presented as facts on top of logical fallacies, ignore the real data or try to spin it away, and stir well with sophistry. Then you have evolutionary theory.
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You're not a fish update. You have a Creator Who made you and loves you and wants you to know Him, and to love Him too. Don't trade that in for pseudo science mumbo jumbo.
 
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Speedwell

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You're not a fish update. You have a Creator Who made you and loves you and wants you to know Him, and to love Him too. Don't trade that in for pseudo science mumbo jumbo.
It's not "either-or." We have a creator who made us and loves us whether evolution is true or not.
 
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LoricaLady

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It's not "either-or." We have a creator who made us and loves us whether evolution is true or not.
It's not "whether evolution is true or not" because it's not true! If you have some point in my post, above, to refute with scientific data, kindly cite it. Yes, the Father loves us. And HE made us, not some primal pond. We were made in HIS image, not in the image of Lucy (or some other - invisible and unverifiable - transition du jour). And oh yeal, on Lucy, guess how many years there are between you and her? Oh, just 2 to 5 million Darwin years. And the number of transitions between you and her? Zero. Just lots of speculation and ever changing theories.

Yes, the Father loves us. But many people - like my own self in the past - stop believing in Him when they buy into the pseudo science of evolutionism. Richard Dawkins attributes his atheism to belief in evolution, too.

Evolutionism is a religion because it is based on faith in the unseen and the impossible. Yes, the Father loves us. He loves us so much that He wants us to know the truth and He does NOT want us to be fooled into giving credit to "evolution" for what HE did.

But again, I took a data based approach. If you've got any data to refute what I said, do cite it. Please don't just cut and paste some link now. Kindly use YOUR mind and YOUR words.
 
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Speedwell

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It's not "whether evolution is true or not" because it's not true! If you have some point in my post, above, to refute with scientific data, kindly cite it. Yes, the Father loves us. And HE made us, not some nonsensical primal pond. We were made in HIS image, not in the image of Lucy (or some other - invisible and unverifiable - transition du jour). And oh yeal, on Lucy, guess how many years there are between you and her? Oh, just 2 to 5 million Darwin years. And the number of transitions between you and her? Zero. Just lots fanciful speculation and ever changing theories.

Yes, the Father loves us. But many people - like my own self in the past - stop believing in Him when they buy into the pseudo science of evolutionism. Richard Dawkins attributes his atheism to belief in evolution, too.

Evolutionism is a religion because it is based on faith in the unseen and the impossible. Yes, the Father loves us. He loves us so much that He wants us to know the truth and He does NOT want us to be fooled into giving credit to "evolution" for what HE did.

But again, I took a data based approach. If you've got any data to refute what I said, do cite it. Don't just cut and paste some link now. Use YOUR mind and YOUR words.
I take that rant to be an accusation of atheism--which is a reportable violation of the forum rules.

And, no, I am not going to refute your wildly inaccurate characterization of evolution. Knock down your own straw men.
 
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LoricaLady

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I take that rant to be an accusation of atheism--which is a reportable violation of the forum rules.

And, no, I am not going to refute your wildly inaccurate characterization of evolution. Knock down your own straw men.
I do not believe I broke a single forum rule. You got on here, it seemed to me, to present a defense of evolutionism with an opening for others to present another side. Now, if I am wrong on any points in my posts above, I don't want to be! I would appreciate you charitably helping me out and citing data that refutes what I said.

For example, you could show me a photo of a geologic column, since from your first post it seems to me that you believe in it. You could show me how millimeter changes in finch beaks demonstrate goo through the zoo to you. Or you could show me a single example, in the trillions of life forms out there, of anything changing its genus. Just one life form would be sufficient.

You could also cite a life form where we can see either mutations or natural selection leading to a climb up Darwin's purported Tree of Life. Of course that would necessitate a change in genus.
Or, if you prefer, you could refute what these secular scientists have to say that disagrees with evolutionism:

We are told that beneficial mutations are an essential mechanism for evolution to occur, but H. J. Muller, who won a Nobel Prize for his work on mutations, said....
"It is entirely in line with the accidental nature of mutations that extensive tests have agreed in showing the vast majority of them detrimental to the organism in its job of surviving and reproducing -- good ones are so rare we can consider them all bad." H.J. Mueller, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists 11:331.
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Anyway, mutations are isolated, random, events that do not build on one another like Legos, and certainly have no ability to create totally new DNA as, for ex., would be needed to turn a leg into a wing.
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As for natural selection, it does not lead to evolution, either. What does NS select from? What is already in the genome. It shuffles pre existing information or may cause a loss of information, not the new info you would need to turn a fin into, say, a foot. That is why no matter what it selects from in a fish or bird or lizard or bacteria or monkey or tree or flower you will still have a fish, bird, lizard, bacteria, etc.
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Let's see what some other secular scientists have to say about evolution.
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Bowler, Peter J., Review of In Search of Deep Time by Henry Gee (Free Press, 1999), American Scientist (vol. 88, March/April 2000), p. 169.
"We cannot identify ancestors or 'missing links,' and we cannot devise testable theories to explain how particular episodes of evolution came about. Gee is adamant that all the popular stories about how the first amphibians conquered the dry land, how the birds developed wings and feathers for flying, how the dinosaurs went extinct, and how humans evolved from apes are just products of our imagination, driven by prejudices and preconceptions."
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"There are only two possibilities as to how life arose. One is spontaneous generation arising to evolution; the other is a supernatural creative act of God. There is no third possibility. Spontaneous generation, that life arose from non-living matter was scientifically disproved 120 years ago by Louis Pasteur and others. That leaves us with the only possible conclusion that life arose as a supernatural creative act of God. I will not accept that philosophically because I do not want to believe in God. Therefore, I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible; spontaneous generation arising to evolution." (Nobel Prize winner Wald, George, "Innovation and Biology," Scientific American, Vol. 199, Sept. 1958, p. 100)
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"The pathetic thing about it is that many scientists are trying to prove the doctrine of evolution, which no science can do." (Dr. Robert A. Milikan, physicist and Nobel Prize winner, speech before the American Chemical Society.)
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"Hypothesis [evolution] based on no evidence and irreconcilable with the facts....These classical evolutionary theories are a gross over-simplification of an immensely complex and intricate mass of facts, and it amazes me that they are swallowed so uncritically and readily, and for such a long time, by so many scientists without a murmur of protest."
(Sir Ernst Chan, Nobel Prize winner for developing penicillin)
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On this webpage you can see Nobel Prize winning scientists, other secular scientists - including some world famous evolutionists - admitting there is no evidence for evolution. You can see them calling evolution a kind of religion, something that leads to "anti knowledge", etc. Notice how many of these secular scientists acknowledge evidence for a Creator.
These Quotes Reveal The Credulity Of Evolutionists
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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed shows the politics of Neo Darwinism which harasses and expels those in academia and the media who even hint that there MIGHT be evidence for a Creator.
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Anyone reading this: You are not an ape update. You were created in the very image and likeness of the Creator. He is your Father and loves you and wants you to know Him, and love Him too. Why trade in that fantastic truth for a bunch of mumbo jumbo pseudo science that even secular scientists can't get consensus on? Rhetorical Q.
 
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Speedwell

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I do not believe I broke a single forum rule. You got on here, it seemed to me, to present a defense of evolutionism with an opening for others to present another side. Now, if I am wrong on any points in my posts above, I don't want to be! I would appreciate you charitably helping me out and citing data that refutes what I said.

For example, you could show me a photo of a geologic column, since from your first post it seems to me that you believe in it. You could show me how millimeter changes in finch beaks demonstrate goo through the zoo to you. Or you could show me a single example, in the trillions of life forms out there, of anything changing its genus. Just one life form would be sufficient.
You must have me confused with somebody else--I have never posted anything about the geologic column, nor fossils in this thread (or rarely anywhere else.) Let me be charitable and tell you, just for starters, that the theory of evolution does not require or predict that anything will change from one genus to another.

But I am not the one to ask. I don't care very much about the theory of evolution; It is a scientific theory and as such only accepted provisionally like any other scientific theory. If it was diisproven tomorrow it would not change my view of the literal inerrancy of Genesis, which I think is bad theology.

And cool it with the snide insinuations of atheism. This is a Christians-only forum; we are all believers here.
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LoricaLady

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Actually, many atheists get on this Forum. As for snide remarks about atheism, gee, I'm sorry if that offends you. Different things offend different people. I am offended by those who attack the Bible, not atheism. But to each his or her own. However, let me hasten to say I care a lot about atheists, maybe especially since I once was one. I get offended when I see them being deceived, as I was, into believing pseudo science which pulls them - as it pulled me and Dawkins and countless others - away from the Almighty Who DID create us.

As for the Geologic Column, yes, actually you did speak of the fossil record. Please look at your first post.

You said "Using an evolutionary model we would expect to see life on earth going from less complex to more complex as adaptations compound. If we look at the fossil record, this is exactly what we see." That would be seen in pictures of the purported Geologic Column only. As I pointed out in my first post, we don't see any such thing in real life. We see the exact opposite. In fact I gave you a link with a photo showing deep sea, now extinct, life forms, wrapped around mountain tops and told you about other things which show the fossils, in reality, are mixed, jumbled, in no neat GC order whatsoever. However, again, if you can find me a photo of the GC with things in neat, "rested hierarchy" layers, I again invite you to post it. Please.

As for the genus topic, here is a link showing what kinds of genus fish type creatures can belong to. fish genus

According to Darwin and evolutionists in general, fish turned into amphibians, amphibians turned into reptiles, reptiles turned into birds etc. etc. Here are the kinds of genus amphibians are listed as belonging to, below. Maybe I missed something. If so, show me anything, in the trillions of living examples around us, that indicates anything in the fish genus is turning into an amphibian, or any other kind of, genus. amphibian genus

If you prefer you can do the same thing with birds and reptiles, apes and people, whatever. Just one life form would be adequate to show the shift occurring. Please name it.

Again, you said you wanted to debate! Great. So called beneficial mutations and natural selection are said to be the 2 driving forces behind evolution. Again, I ask you to cite a life form, and its mutation or mutations, and give data showing that it is "evolving." Things like antibiotic resistant bacteria, two headed snakes and albino bunnies, btw, are not evolving. They are still bacteria, snakes and bunnies. Stasis is the opposite of evolution. Or, if they are "evolving" what are they evolving into? Please cite your data.

Likewise, please cite a life form, with scientific data, showing that natural selection is causing it to evolve. Friend, if there is no evidence that natural selection or mutations cause evolution, then, guess what? There is no evidence for evolution!

I know we are told, over and over and over, that it all happened long ago in the invisible and unverifiable past. Nature works the same way now as it did then, however. I'm asking for evidence not that it happened in the invisible past, but that it is happening now. Otherwise, evolutionism is nothing but faith based, i.e a religion of sorts.
 
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Speedwell

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As for the Geologic Column, yes, actually you did speak of the fossil record. Please look at your first post.
This is my first post:

"The processes involven in macro evolution and micro evolution are not qualitatively different, so the distinction is not an important one.
Natural selection is important, but you left the other important one out: variation. Reproductive variation is what gives natural selection a range of types to select from. Without variation, there is no evolution."


Nothing there abouty the fossil record.



You said "Using an evolutionary model we would expect to see life on earth going from less complex to more complex as adaptations compound. If we look at the fossil record, this is exactly what we see." .
I didn't post that. I don't know what your game is, but you are not being honest for some reason, and I want nothing further to do with you.
 
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LoricaLady

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Speedwell My sincere apologies. I was going too fast and was mixing you up with the OP.

However I notice that you talked about my supposedly "wildly inaccurate" statements about evolution. Buuut....you didn't give any data to refute any data that I offered. Kindly quote me and use any data to show I am "wildly inaccurate." Please don't just cut and paste links but show you understand the issues by putting things into your own words.

Was I wrong in saying Darwin never showed the origin of anything, just talked about it -vaguely and theoretically? What was wrong with saying that millimeter changes in finch beaks don't show goo through the zoo to you? Or, do you have any evidence for the Geologic Column which I called fictional? Do you have a Darwinian explanation for why fossils of extinct, deep sea, life forms are wrapped around mountain tops all over the world, sometimes in near perfect condition?

I said there is no evidence mutations or natural selection lead to evolution. if that is "wildly inaccurate" kindly give me the life forms' examples that I asked for. I try to give data, personally, and not just make sweeping statements accusing others of being wrong. Like I showed how Muller, the Nobel Prize winner, said extensive tests showing mutations are " basically all bad."
Please don't just accuse me of being "wildly inaccurate." Present data to refute the data I gave and answer my questions.

Also I gave a genus list for fish, and one for amphibians. Where are any genus changes seen, as I asked about?

But I gotta say, after years of debating evolution I have found that those who support it, when asked for hard core data, don't give any. They change the subject, they make excuses, they just may be insulting, but they don't answer the questions. But who knows, maybe you will be different and provide the scientific data I am asking for.
 
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Speedwell

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Speedwell My sincere apologies. I was going too fast and was mixing you up with the OP.

However I notice that you talked about my supposedly "wildly inaccurate" statements about evolution. Buuut....you didn't give any data to refute any data that I offered. Kindly quote me and use any data to show I am "wildly inaccurate." Please don't just cut and paste links but show you understand the issues by putting things into your own words.
A species does not jump from one genus to another. It may become a member of a new genus. For example, if there are many species in a Genus, it may be promoted to Family with two or more new genera created under it. But it never jumps from one Genus to another already existing Genus..
 
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LoricaLady

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A species does not jump from one genus to another. It may become a member of a new genus. For example, if there are many species in a Genus, it may be promoted to Family with two or more new genera created under it. But it never jumps from one Genus to another already existing Genus..
Give me an example, in the real and not theoretical world of the unverifiable ancient past, where any of the trillions of life forms around us is seen to "be promoted to" a new family.

Also, you did accuse me of making "wildly inaccurate" statements about evolutionism. I gave you a whole list of areas to address. Pick one. Please.
 
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LoricaLady

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Speedwell
P.S. Back to the whole genus/species issue. Homo sapiens means genus/human and sapiens/species. Now what evidence do you have that any ape type, or monkey type, or whatever, creature ever changed its genus to become homo? What evidence do you have that any of those hairy beasts ever changed their genus in any way, for that matter?

Lucy was a 3 foot high Australopithecus, certainly not of the genus homo. Now, as usual evolutionists change their minds and theories all the time and now some say "Well, she wasn't your ancestor after all. But we're just real sure something else along those lines was. Don't ask for any actual hard core evidence on that, though."

That's what real science uses, however. Evidence. So, again, what evidence is there that any of those knuckle dragging creatures ever did, or ever could, turn into homo sapiens you, or even changed into a genus different from their current ones? Before I put Lucy or whatever into my family tree, I want to be real scientific, and science requires data, doesn't it?
 
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sfs

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Those who promote evolution - like my own self in the past - are real convinced that they are the scientific ones. Are they?
Yes. I am, at least. That is, I'm employed as a scientist and use evolution in my work. Either my employers are confused or you are.
Let's start with the "Bible" of evolutionism, The Origin of Species.
The Origin of Species isn't the Bible of anything. It's an early and very crude attempt at a theory of evolution, which introduced several important ideas but which was seriously mistaken on several points, and which left huge gaps in the theory. If you want to challenge evolution, you have to address the actual scientific theory.
Oh, and btw, as usual in evolutionary theory you are being told one thing while the opposite is true, as about natural selection. It does not lead to evolution as Darwin claimed. It only shuffles, or sometimes eliminates, pre existing information that has always been in the genes. It never creates new DNA as would be necessary, for ex., to turn a fin into a foot or a leg into a wing. Nothing ever observed creates new DNA. All DNA is just a copy of a copy of a copy which can be altered by things like mutations.
The theory is quite clear: natural selection filters variation. The variation comes from mutations. It's the combination of the two that produces evolution. So why you think you're scoring a point here is a mystery.
Beneficial mutations? They are said to be the second force for evolution. However, Charles Muller, who won a Nobel Prize for his work on them, said "The good ones are so rare that we can consider them all bad."
Presumably you mean Hermann Muller, who won the Nobel Prize in 1946, well before the structure of DNA was determined, and long before individual mutations could be studied. Do you honestly not know anything about the history of genetics for the last 70 years? If so, why are you commenting on it? If you do, why are you ignoring all that we have learned about beneficial mutations in that time?
Darwin was nothing but an armchair theorist who, unlike his contemporary Mendel, never supported his theory through the scientific method and cast doubts on it himself. Yet he is an icon of evolution,
Darwin was a brilliant and careful scientist, who would be respected today even if he hadn't written a thing on evolution. Biologists have a high regard for his scientific work. You, on the other, are not even an armchair scientist, are you? Why should anyone accept your judgment of Darwin over that of scientists?
Bowler, Peter J., Review of In Search of Deep Time by Henry Gee (Free Press, 1999), American Scientist (vol. 88, March/April 2000), p. 169.
"We cannot identify ancestors or 'missing links,' and we cannot devise testable theories to explain how particular episodes of evolution came about. Gee is adamant that all the popular stories about how the first amphibians conquered the dry land, how the birds developed wings and feathers for flying, how the dinosaurs went extinct, and how humans evolved from apes are just products of our imagination, driven by prejudices and preconceptions."
Most of that is correct. We usually cannot investigate the selective forces that led to evolutionary change in the past and have little more than speculation to go on in many cases. That has nothing to do with the question of whether the changes took place. Everything that Gee proposes in the book makes sense only in the context of common descent. So why are you quoting a review of a book that utterly rejects your position?
"There are only two possibilities as to how life arose. One is spontaneous generation arising to evolution; the other is a supernatural creative act of God. There is no third possibility. Spontaneous generation, that life arose from non-living matter was scientifically disproved 120 years ago by Louis Pasteur and others. That leaves us with the only possible conclusion that life arose as a supernatural creative act of God. I will not accept that philosophically because I do not want to believe in God. Therefore, I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible; spontaneous generation arising to evolution." (Nobel Prize winner Wald, George, "Innovation and Biology," Scientific American, Vol. 199, Sept. 1958, p. 100)
This is a straight-up falsehood. Wald said nothing like this in that article (which is actually titled "Innovation in Biology"). I know, because I've got the article up on my screen right now. I can only assume that some creationist invented what he thought was Wald's thought process in writing the piece and cast it as a restatement of his words. Then some other creationist came along who was too lazy to look up the actual article and copied the "quotation". It's widely repeated by creationists, none of whom seem to care enough to do elementary fact-checking. Hey, if it sounds good, use it.

"The pathetic thing about it is that many scientists are trying to prove the doctrine of evolution, which no science can do." (Dr. Robert A. Milikan, physicist and Nobel Prize winner, speech before the American Chemical Society.)
Why does the opinion of a physicist speaking in 1925 have any relevance to the validity of evolution?

And so on.

Look, I have usee common descent fairly frequently in my work as a geneticist. If you have an alternative theory that can predict genetic data as well as common descent, I'm happy to hear it. But rhetoric and quotations from long-dead scientists who knew nothing about modern genetics are not relevant. I use what works, and creationism doesn't work.
 
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Winken

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I don't find the acceptance of evolution to be incompatible with belief in God but there are many who do.
I would like to speak to them. I will be providing evidence for evolution and you will be responsible for providing a superior explanation of that evidence from a creation perspective.
Go to "Search," top right of screen. Type in evolution. Go for it!!!
 
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