I wonder what's next...

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by Outspoken
I had friends in high school that were gay and they clearly expressed it. I don't see what you're objecting about, they never get yelled at.

I guess you didn't go to a rural HS in TX in the 90s then.  I got involved with the Baptist Minister's daughter who was abusive to me.  In private she would express her love for me but in public it was like she vaguely tolerated me as her acolyte.  She was the head cheerleader because she ingratiated herself to the girls' gym teacher but mostly just a bully.  She (I think now) was behind some girls who grabbed me in the bathroom at school and shoved my head in a toilet and later told me it would've been worse if she hadn't been there.  She is now a deputy sheriff and has had at least one brutality complaint against her.  I wish we would've had a GLSEN then.   I kept to myself and heard of one boy people said was gay but I didn't know him;  too bad we didn't get to know each other. 

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by Texas Lynn
 

I'd like to know.  And who or what is "Louis Booth" and what is his significance?  Is he the other brother of John Wilkes Booth and Edwin Booth or something?

{edited out and a formal warning issued for breaking rule #7.  Don't do it again Sauron, or you may find yourself on vacation.  Clear? - BF}

WorldNutDaily got its name because of the low journalistic quality and even conspiratorical nature of its news reporting.  You know - Clinton is conspiring with the United Nations, the UN black helicopters are invading in Montana, the Vatican is in league with the Federal Reserve, etc.

 

[Sauron]

Under what circumstances could a school constitutionally prohibit the distribution of all non school related literature?  Wouldn't an ironclad ban on all such activities likely be seen as unconstitutional?  What is the compelling state interest in supressing all non-school related literature (speech) if such literature is distributed in such a way that it creates no disruption? 

It would be interesting to see if there has ever been a case on that. 

[/B]

There are some schools that prohibit any clubs, organizations, etc. that are not school-related functions.  They do this, to avoid getting into battles with the local fundamentalist parents, over having bible clubs that meet during the day.  Because the school is generic in its banning (i.e., doesn't target religious groups), this arrangement has passed constitutional muster and isn't seen as an infringement of the right to assembly.

Extending that same principle, I don't see why a school couldn't ban all non-school related handouts and pamphlets.

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"what about if it were the Gay & Lesbian Tolerance Commitee, Outspoken? "

I had friends in high school that were gay and they clearly expressed it. I don't see what you're objecting about, they never get yelled at.

First, I don't believe you - and since you didn't follow them around all day, you can't even say what did (or did not) happen to them.  Not that it matters much - there's enough independent evidence from other schools that such harassment indeed goes on.

But your answer avoids the questioner's point.  Care to go back and answer it,

"you can't use the public school grounds for proselytization activities during school hours."

HUH? what part of nonclass time did you not see? I think you need to read the article and crazyfingers posts Sauron.

The Boston Globe indicates that it was going on during the school day. 

On the next day, despite warnings that they could be suspended, seven students passed out about 450 candy canes in the hallways and at lunch, Grabowski said.

Read more carefully,

"you might consider something besides WorldNutDaily next time you want to post a news article. "

Sorry I forgot my sauron literature approved red marker.

WorldNutDaily is a unreliable, rightwing and biased source.  It's not just Sauron who is saying that, either. Your attempt at humor doesn't answer the question as to why you offered WND, and skipped over the more accurate reporting available from many other outlets.

Care to tell us why,

 

[crazyfingers]

Originally posted by Sauron
There are some schools that prohibit any clubs, organizations, etc. that are not school-related functions.  They do this, to avoid getting into battles with the local fundamentalist parents, over having bible clubs that meet during the day.  Because the school is generic in its banning (i.e., doesn't target religious groups), this arrangement has passed constitutional muster and isn't seen as an infringement of the right to assembly.

Extending that same principle, I don't see why a school couldn't ban all non-school related handouts and pamphlets.

Perhaps.  Like I said, I wonder if there was ever a case on that.  I think that it would have to be done for a very good reason.  Kids don't check their constitutional rights at the door.  I don't think that the school could ban all non-school related handouts, etc.. without demonstrating a very good reason for doing it.

As a side note, schools are now required by law to allow the Boy Scouts onto their grounds to procelatize.  It was added to the fine print of the No Child Left Behind law. So schools are required by law, or risk losing all federal money, to cooperate with an organizations that practices discrimination on the basis or religion and sexual orientation.

 

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Sauron appears to be correct about schools being able to issue blanket prohibitions of non-school related clubs. As regards the Boy Scouts issue in the No Child Left Behind legislation, I found the following:

www.ed.gov/offices/OCR/boyscouts.html

www.ed.gov/legislation/ESEA02/pg112.html#sec9525

It seems that the schools are required to permit the Boy Scouts to meet on campus only so long as the school allows other, non-school related clubs or organizations to use school grounds for their functions.

That said, I find the Boy Scouts' eligibility requirements to be discriminatory and unacceptable.

 

[crazyfingers]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas
Sauron appears to be correct about schools being able to issue blanket prohibitions of non-school related clubs.

 

I have not doubted that.  What I wonder about is whether they can ban all non-school related fliers, handouts.  I have not said that they can't.  I have said that I suspect that they would need to demonstrate a very good reason.

 

[crazyfingers]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas  
As regards the Boy Scouts issue in the No Child Left Behind legislation, I found the following:

www.ed.gov/offices/OCR/boyscouts.html

www.ed.gov/legislation/ESEA02/pg112.html#sec9525

It seems that the schools are required to permit the Boy Scouts to meet on campus only so long as the school allows other, non-school related clubs or organizations to use school grounds for their functions.

That said, I find the Boy Scouts' eligibility requirements to be discriminatory and unacceptable. [/B]

 

Interesting, so it's not as bad as I thought.  But it's still horrible.  It would still force schools to violate their own nondiscrimination policies.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

My bad (trying to read too fast). Yes, that's a trickier proposition. I don't know the answer, though I agree with you that any school that tried to ban non-school related material would run into serious problems with the 1st Amendment.

 

[Blindfaith]

mod hat on

 

Any further references to a poster who's name may be different than what he is logged in as, will result in one or all options listed;

1. editing some or all of the individual post
2. closing the thread and throwing it in the trash
3. receiving a formal warning for breaking rule #1.

Since this is an informal warning to all involved, the next time it happens, formal warnings will be issued. 

 Engaging in this type of behavior does not speak well of the maturity level of the poster belittling another, and really isn't necessary at all.

 

mod hat off

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by crazyfingers
So schools are required by law, or risk losing all federal money, to cooperate with an organizations that practices discrimination on the basis or religion and sexual orientation.

 

That's also true with high schools - they're required to give military recruiters the contact information of students, and the military certainly discriminates.

 

 

 

[crazyfingers]

Originally posted by Sauron
That's also true with high schools - they're required to give military recruiters the contact information of students, and the military certainly discriminates. 
  
 

True. Another bad law IMO.

 

[fieldsofwind]

Handing out candy canes with a bible verse on it (whether that is the original incident or not) to students willing to take them during the intermediate periods between classes or before/after school is not against the law at all. To say it is would be a violation of the 1st amendment. Reason: What is the difference between that and the students talking about it with willing participants. If you think it is disruptive, then why not say that students cannot talk about anything all day long. They must go mute at all times until called upon, because any conversation of "outside" topics is an unnecessary evil. If this country allows people to burn the flag as they did in the case Texas v Johnson, then please--it's not that hard to see.

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by fieldsofwind
Handing out candy canes with a bible verse on it (whether that is the original incident or not) to students willing to take them during the intermediate periods between classes or before/after school is not against the law at all. To say it is would be a violation of the 1st amendment.

No, it wouldn't.

Reason: What is the difference between that and the students talking about it with willing participants.

You obviously haven't read the whole thread yet.  Others have raised your same "points", and have been shot down.

When you catch up on the thread, let us know.

 

 

[fieldsofwind]

Shoot me down, I can't wait

 

[PastorFreud]

I hate to agree with my right wing fanatic fringe brethren, but I do in this case. As far as I can tell, the chess club, the scouts, the wiccan group, the mormons, or any other STUDENT LEAD and ORGANIZED has the right to form a club and promote it on campus.

Now this is where it is fuzzy for me. If these students are part of a school recognized organization, then they should have the right to recruit for it. I couldn't quite tell if this was a school authorized group. "Offended" students can refuse the candy or throw it away. As far as what I have been able to see, the students are not upset, just the administration. I know that just off school property, individual students can distribute literature, depending on local ordinances, the same as any other group. I believe we should protect the legal rights of these students the same as we would protect the legal rights of a the gay/lesbian student group doing the same.

But I may have missed a detail. And the details are important. Either way, it is certainly not asking students to deny who they are.

 

[fieldsofwind]

OH pastorfreud-- I am such a fanatic aren't I. That is an amazing claim--once again--if you knew me in person, then I seriously doubt you would make such claims. Would my opinions be different--nope, but you wouldn't see just words on a screen, but a person speaking them to you, who has been weathered by the tides.

take care sir

FOW

 

[PastorFreud]

Hey,

I am not picking on you FOW. I was also referring to he who shall not be named. But in a friendly non-ad hominem way.

 

[fieldsofwind]

It's smooth pastorfreud--no problems from me--I just think its kinda funny. I don't mind it at all.

take care

FOW

 

[PastorFreud]

And I am agreeing with you!! Please! Mark this day on your calendar!