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I used to feel the same urgent Apocalyptic CERTAINTY some here feel

eclipsenow

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To ignore it, spiritualize it, make it past history, or to make fanciful theories about it, is nothing short of a serious denigration of God's Word.
Unless of course one is convinced that the passage itself requires us to read it symbolically and theologically - and that reading it literally would do horrible violence to the meaning.

As for 'fanciful theories' - you've already shared that your own pastor in your own church does not agree with you.

And I get it!
A nerfed little "Day of the Lord" that was most probably dwarfed by the Black Plague :doh:

Honestly - so many passages speak of it being universal, inescapable, final, and eternal. You nerf it down to something you can survive by just not being in the middle east in the next few years. Umm.... no! To me this denigrates the concept of the Day of the Lord in the bible - and completely nerfs it.
 
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keras

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Unless of course one is convinced that the passage itself requires us to read it symbolically and theologically - and that reading it literally would do horrible violence to the meaning.
A valid reason is required before anyone does that to plainly Written scripture. Otherwise, it is as I have said: playing fast and loose with God's Word.
As for 'fanciful theories' - you've already shared that your own pastor in your own church does not agree with you.
My Pastor simply does not want to discuss Bible prophecy. Just like every other Church leader I have known.
Honestly - so many passages speak of it being universal, inescapable, final, and eternal. You nerf it down to something you can survive by just not being in the middle east in the next few years. Umm.... no! To me this denigrates the concept of the Day of the Lord in the bible - and completely nerfs it.
There are two Days of the Lord; His Day of fiery wrath and the Day He Returns in glory.
The terrible Day of fiery wrath, is survivable as many prophesies attest and Revelation 7 continues on to describe events on earth.

When Jesus Returns, He will destroy the armies at Armageddon, but NOT by fire.
Two separate events, several years apart.

THEN: after the Millennium reign of King Jesus, the old earth will be remade into the NH, NE. Rev 21:1
 
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eclipsenow

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A valid reason is required before anyone does that to plainly Written scripture. Otherwise, it is as I have said: playing fast and loose with God's Word.

My Pastor simply does not want to discuss Bible prophecy. Just like every other Church leader I have known.

There are two Days of the Lord; His Day of fiery wrath and the Day He Returns in glory.
The terrible Day of fiery wrath, is survivable as many prophesies attest and Revelation 7 continues on to describe events on earth.

When Jesus Returns, He will destroy the armies at Armageddon, but NOT by fire.
Two separate events, several years apart.

THEN: after the Millennium reign of King Jesus, the old earth will be remade into the NH, NE. Rev 21:1
Nah, there are two Days of the Lord all kind of mixed in to the imagery of the one Day of the Lord in the Old Testament but then in the New Testament we see that it is two.

The day of the Lord's salvation - when Jesus dies and rises for us.

The day of the Lord's judgement on his enemies when he returns.
 
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RandyPNW

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Spreading the Gospel of Jesus is our paramount mission.
But that must not prevent the study of and the understanding of what God has planned for our future. And to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus, is the next most important part of the Gospel. Matthew 24:14

All the Prophetic Word is there for our information. To ignore it, spiritualize it, make it past history, or to make fanciful theories about it, is nothing short of a serious denigration of God's Word.

Be assured, when we all stand before God in Judgment, those people who have promoted ideas that are not supported by scripture, or; just as most pastors do: avoid the subject entirely; will face a more severs Judgment. James 3:1

Yes, that's what the Word teaches, that teachers are held more accountable than others. It's the distinctives in God's communication that matter--and not just a general sense of morality.

We can have all kinds of "good feelings" about "peace and love," but that doesn't bring obedience to God's word, unless there are distinctives that actually mandate that we do specific things.

Well, we aren't under a body of law like the Mosaic Law, where we have to engage in certain toils and hardships. But there are specifics, as you suggest, that require we read, study, and obey. Thanks.
 
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keras

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Nah, there are two Days of the Lord all kind of mixed in to the imagery of the one Day of the Lord in the Old Testament but then in the New Testament we see that it is two.
You seem unable to sort out how the Prophesies describe the many Days of the Lord;
When He acted against the antediluvian peoples, [Noah's Flood]
Destroyed the Assyrian army of 185,000 surrounding Jerusalem, +
Was born and Ministered on earth, and died for our Salvation.

Will send fire to destroy His enemies. [the Sixth Seal]
Will Return again and reign in earth for 1000 years.
Then; the Judgment of everyone who has ever lived.
After that, Eternity.
But there are specifics, as you suggest, that require we read, study, and obey. Thanks.
Yes; like all of the Prophetic Word - at least a quarter of our Bible.
Frankly, it is shocking that Pastors and teachers avoid discussion of the prophesies.
I know its controversial, but as all indications are that we, alive now; will experience the end time events, we should take heed of all the warnings.
Being aware of what God has planned, will be a great help, as sudden disasters strike, as our faith is tested. 1 Peter 4:12
 
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RandyPNW

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You seem unable to sort out how
Yes; like all of the Prophetic Word - at least a quarter of our Bible.
Frankly, it is shocking that Pastors and teachers avoid discussion of the prophesies.
I know its controversial, but as all indications are that we, alive now; will experience the end time events, we should take heed of all the warnings.
Being aware of what God has planned, will be a great help, as sudden disasters strike, as our faith is tested. 1 Peter 4:12

Yes, and I'll add this. Some of my pastors refuse to acknowledge God's judgment is taking place at all in the NT! They have said that the NT age is all about God's Grace, meaning that all the evil that takes place now is coming from the Devil or from ourselves, or just from natural circumstances.

It's as if these pastors don't think God's in charge at all, or has given rule over earth to Satan and to fallen men. But my Bible reads that God never changes, that what He did in the OT times He continues to do in our times. The only difference is that God's Grace today has been completed in Christ's work, offering Man eternal life. That wasn't possible until Christ actually did the work.

So the Prophets are as relevant today as they were in OT times. And quite frankly, we have the book of Revelation--a NT prophetic book!
 
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eclipsenow

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Will send fire to destroy His enemies. [the Sixth Seal]
Correction - 1/20th of His enemies
So worth investing 1/4 of all OT prophecies

On the other hand, the Day of the Lord I've read about is universal, inescapable, unpredictable, final, and eternal.
 
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DavidPT

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And quite frankly, we have the book of Revelation--a NT prophetic book!

In one of these posts in this forum, either in this thread or another thread, just recently eclipsenow is on record insisting that the book of Revelation is not prophecy, even though it says it is, in the beginning of the book, and that it reminds us again that it is, in the end of the book. Therefore, not only does he disagree with you here, he also disagrees with what is plainly stated in the book of Revelation itself.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 
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eclipsenow

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In one of these posts in this forum, either in this thread or another thread, just recently eclipsenow is on record insisting that the book of Revelation is not prophecy, even though it says it is,

I am on record as saying exactly this.
In the first line it says it is an apocalypse - a revelation - but not a prophecy.
Apocalypse is a known genre of literature common 200BC to 200AD that many Jewish groups wrote in, including Essenes and others. To ignore this, and just let it's rich literary images run away in our imaginations, will not tell us anything true about the book but more about our own subconscious fixations.

John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near."
4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.
Basically, if Revelation is some sort of timetable that only the last generation will understand:-

  • what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?
  • Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?
  • Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years. In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
  • The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. It even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.
  • Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
  • I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I am on record as saying exactly this.
In the first line it says it is an apocalypse - a revelation - but not a prophecy.
It doesn't say that it's not a prophecy. That would contradict what it says 2 verses later.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Why would you say it's not a prophecy when this clearly says that it is? Yes, it's written in apocalyptic language with lots of symbolism, but it's still a book of prophecy every bit as much as books like Daniel and Isaiah which also contain a lot of symbolism.

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Was Jesus mistaken in what He said here? Let's see. You say the book is not prophecy. Jesus said it is. I'm going to side with Jesus every time.
 
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eclipsenow

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It doesn't say that it's not a prophecy. That would contradict what it says 2 verses later.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.​

Why would you say it's not a prophecy when this clearly says that it is? Yes, it's written in apocalyptic language with lots of symbolism, but it's still a book of prophecy every bit as much as books like Daniel and Isaiah which also contain a lot of symbolism.

What is prophecy? Yes, it contains the words prophecy - but John also wants them to obey it. How can they obey something about the far future, especially when it is of an unimaginably different world to theirs?

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Again, this proves my point. Prophecy is not just future telling, but often speaking a special word of encouragement or warning into a specific context. That is what John is doing here - and the first sentence tells us that he is doing it through apocalyptic symbolism.

Back to 'prophecy' being read as a word about an unimaginably distant future.
How could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?

EG: Imagine we are given the following message.
"In 4000 AD on the Red Planet, the Zorg will Zazzle the Marines in Valles Marineris, but as long as the Marines not touch the Zazzle - they will be safe."

Now obey this!
 
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Timtofly

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I have been to several churches and I think the communities were quite similar to each other. In each church are people who are more fanatical about some topic and people who are less.

But because I was a child or later teenager and young adult, it gave me paranoia and anxiety and to this day I must struggle with some subconcious fear that somebody (some all knowing government or organization preparing some torture for Christians) is watching and preparing something satanic in the background to come, even though I rationally know its not true.

Because of this, if it was on me, I would not allow futurism on Christian forums. It can damage people, its a dangerous ideology.
You make futurism sound like science fiction. The only thing that is next in the future is the Second Coming. The problem is people have given the wrong timing of the Second Coming. The claim that the tribulation comes first has brought on all this hysteria.
 
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Timtofly

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I don't which is worse over all, a Preterist mindset or a Pretrib mindset, in regards to some of the things Jesus predicted in the Discourse? I don't agree with neither. What Jesus predicted in the Discourse doesn't just involve events having to do with 2000 years ago nor does it just involve events having to do with the end of this age. It involves both time periods. In Luke 21 verse 20 is involving events pertaining to 2000 years ago. As of verse 24 it is involving events after that time period, which include events involving the end of this age. That's where Matthew 24:15 and what follows fits, not during verse 20 in Luke 21 instead.
Obviously preterist are the ultimate pre-tribbers. They have the Second Coming before all of the tribulation of the last 1900 years.

Christ Himself will be on this earth during the Great Tribulation. The Second Coming is after general tribulation. The kind that has happened off and on for the last 1991 years. Christ has to appear in order to finish up His earthly ministry. That time is when Great Tribulation will happen. The fact that it could be any minute is because it will always be after some sort of tribulation. This current pandemic is a form of tribulation. But it is not the GT where the angels themselves are on earth removing human souls from their bodies, and sending them to eternal life or eternal damnation. Angels are currently not here, nor have been physically doing that where the spiritual blindness has been removed, and humans can see the spiritual just as easily as the physical.
 
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trophy33

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Obviously preterist are the ultimate pre-tribbers. They have the Second Coming before all of the tribulation of the last 1900 years.

Christ Himself will be on this earth during the Great Tribulation. The Second Coming is after general tribulation. The kind that has happened off and on for the last 1991 years. Christ has to appear in order to finish up His earthly ministry. That time is when Great Tribulation will happen. The fact that it could be any minute is because it will always be after some sort of tribulation. This current pandemic is a form of tribulation. But it is not the GT where the angels themselves are on earth removing human souls from their bodies, and sending them to eternal life or eternal damnation. Angels are currently not here, nor have been physically doing that where the spiritual blindness has been removed, and humans can see the spiritual just as easily as the physical.
Preterism does not have any detailed official theology accepted by all preterists. It just says that everything regarding end times happened in the first century, but how exactly and what it means for us today is left to individuals to decide (or to ignore).

----
By this I am not promoting preterism, I am just correcting misinformation.
----
 
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Timtofly

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He can't come today, though. That's impossible unless Pretrib is true. I do not believe Pretrib to be true. What you should be asking instead, if one were to die today, will you be ready to meet your Maker? What exactly would be the difference? If this same one were to die today, one gets to be with the Lord in that case, right? But if the Lord were to come today, but one is not ready though, this then equals one does not get to be with the Lord because they did not believe in a Pretrib rapture, thus were not anticipating it, thus they get left behind instead?
The Second Coming does not hinge on your belief system. Salvation does not hinge on your belief system either. There will be people left on earth at the Second Coming. They will be stuck with the way they believe. The point of being ready is trusting in God's Word, not human interpretations of God's Word.

The point of having the Holy Spirit is knowing, not in mere feelings or emotions. The book of 1 John is all about knowing. It is not just about emotions or beliefs.

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
 
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RandyPNW

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I am on record as saying exactly this.
In the first line it says it is an apocalypse - a revelation - but not a prophecy.
Apocalypse is a known genre of literature common 200BC to 200AD that many Jewish groups wrote in, including Essenes and others. To ignore this, and just let it's rich literary images run away in our imaginations, will not tell us anything true about the book but more about our own subconscious fixations.

The book of Revelation is *both* an Apocalypse and a Prophecy. These terms are not mutually contradictory. Several OT prophetic books were of the "apocalyptic" genre, and yet were still considered to be "prophetic." Revelation is clearly both apocalyptic and prophetic, as I see it and as most Christians see it.

But yes, not all Christians see the book of Revelation as providing a timetable of events, but more as images provoking spiritual fidelity among Christians. To me, this seems to cheapen the images, as well as the literalness of the prophecies. But each of us has to make up our own minds what to believe about this. It doesn't separate Christian from Christian, or it shouldn't.

what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?

The Bible often refers to specific historical events which provide a *moral lesson* for all generations. 1 Cor 10.6

The last generation, under Antichrist, speaks to all generations of Christians who have had their own form of Antichrist. 1 John 2.18

Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?

The Scripture authors regularly encouraged Christians to become studied and diligent, which assumes that many of them were not. Upon studying Dan 7 and Rev 13, and comparing their common reference to the 3.5 years of Antichristian reign, we can easily see that God is giving us a view to the end of history in the current age. This enables us to set our sights on the prize, enduring what we have to go through to get there. Some Christians will always want to create their own scenario, rather than embrace what God has said in His word.

Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years.

Yes, the ancient Roman Caesars were an early form of Antichrist, and John was warning them that they are part of the stream of opposition to Christ that will continue until the 2nd Coming. This does not mean that John was telling the Christians ancient Rome was the final Antichrist. On the contrary, in ch. 17 he seemed to point out that Rome was the final Beast, but only in the 6th stage of kingdom. There was coming a 7th stage--the literal Antichrist Kingdom.

In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"

I don't believe John was attempting to depict the final Antichrist as the *worst* Antichrist in history! Rather, he was just pointing out the nature of the current age, in which Christians are to expect opposition and should prepare to endure in troubled times.

Where Jesus said the Jewish punishment would be the "worst" in Israel's history is stated in the Olivet Discourse, and has to do with the sheer "length" of this punishment, as compared to earlier Jewish punishments. The last Jewish punishment encompasses the entire NT age, characterized as a Great Dispersion, aka the Jewish Diaspora.

The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. It even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.

I agree that though the narrative in Revelation is a single narrative, progressing from beginning to end, and ending at the end of the age with Christ's Coming, these visions are not, for the most part, chronological. They repeat the same theme, that Christ is Coming to judge the world.

Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.

I was raised up in an Amil system, but upon further study recognized that the book of Revelation focuses on the final 3.5 years in history. This is not because it is important for us to prepare for that particular time period, but only to give us a sense of the evil character of the present age, as well as to encourage us to weather such things. We clearly agree on some things and not on others. Oh well--that's okay! ;)
 
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Timtofly

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One day soon, events will shape up to show us that Christ's coming is imminent. As always, we have to be prepared to live in righteousness in accordance with the circumstances we find ourselves in. In all cases, we live meeting the standards of God's Kingdom.
That day has come. Most missed it. All on earth have a spiritual blindness. That one day soon part of your quote has come. It was not a guarantee, that any would recognize that day. Why would that day change how people should be prepared to meet God at any time. Physical death is a guarantee. Not necessarily living during the time Christ could return as Prince at any moment.
 
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DavidPT

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Physical death is a guarantee. Not necessarily living during the time Christ could return as Prince at any moment.


Christ can't just return at any moment. The Father has an appointed time for that. It's not going to be a second sooner nor a second later than the appointed time. He's not going to have Christ returning before any events preceding His return, needing fulfilled, are fulfilled first. What is in question, how are they fulfilled, and not, will they be fulfilled before He can return?

For example. Some are looking for a literal 3rd temple to be built in Jerusalem, when it might not even involve a literal temple, thus could be being fulfilled right under their noses in another sense altogether in the meantime, except they are too busy waiting for it to be fulfilled in the sense they are anticipating it getting fulfilled in, to even notice that it might be being fulfilled in a different sense instead.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.​
Does this verse cancel out verse 3 and the other verses that call it prophecy?

What is prophecy? Yes, it contains the words prophecy - but John also wants them to obey it. How can they obey something about the far future, especially when it is of an unimaginably different world to theirs?
Yes, it contains the word prophecy...but, it's not actually a prophecy? Is that what you're saying?

Again, this proves my point. Prophecy is not just future telling, but often speaking a special word of encouragement or warning into a specific context. That is what John is doing here - and the first sentence tells us that he is doing it through apocalyptic symbolism.
Did I say otherwise? It's still a prophecy, though. Which is my point. You said it wasn't. So, I took exception to you saying it's not prophecy when the book itself says that it is prophecy several times.

Back to 'prophecy' being read as a word about an unimaginably distant future.
How could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
Do you understand who you're talking to here? I'm not a futurist. The book of Revelation contains prophecy regarding things that already occurred, were happening when the book was being written and that would happen from that point on up until the second coming of Christ (Rev 1:19).
 
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