i think teens must realize

[CalledOutOne]

Why so? God never promised us a cake walk in the park, neither are we told a similar message regarding the spiritual realm. God has reasons for letting the demons attack us, namely to rely on His Spirit. Another reason would be to encourage us to be obedient to God's guidance and obey Him no matter what happens (i.e. the very life of Job)

The problem of evil is really only a problem for the non-believer.

Romans 8:23
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

 

[Barricade24]

CARM is really only popular among protestants.

But I hope we can agree that IHOP is a terrible place.

What's wrong with International House of Pancakes?

 

[CalledOutOne]

What's wrong with International House of Pancakes?

lol, nothing I love that place!
It's a lot better than Waffle House.

 

[Shane Plew]

Why so? God never promised us a cake walk in the park, neither are we told a similar message regarding the spiritual realm. God has reasons for letting the demons attack us, namely to rely on His Spirit. Another reason would be to encourage us to be obedient to God's guidance and obey Him no matter what happens (i.e. the very life of Job)

That just doesn't make sense to me. All that pain and suffering for any reason, especially when you can do whatever you wish to get the same result, is cruel and unjust. Also, if God has a plan, that means neither you nor I have any choice of where we will be going in the afterlife(which I don't believe in). It just seems a bit ridiculous from my perspective.

 

[Barricade24]

lol, nothing I love that place!
It's a lot better than Waffle House.

Oh....that's cold...

 

[GrizzlyMonKeH]

Also, if God has a plan, that means neither you nor I have any choice of where we will be going in the afterlife(which I don't believe in). It just seems a bit ridiculous from my perspective.

Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom - William Lane Craig - YouTube

 

[Girder of Loins]

To CalledOutOne,

I've never been to IHOP, so I can't comment on their specific doctrines, but my church has close ties to Bethel and City Bible Church, both having similar viewpoints on Christianity as IHOP(so I'm told). Perhaps we should take this discussion to GT or something so as not to go off-topic?

 

[CalledOutOne]

That just doesn't make sense to me. All that pain and suffering for any reason, especially when you can do whatever you wish to get the same result, is cruel and unjust. Also, if God has a plan, that means neither you nor I have any choice of where we will be going in the afterlife(which I don't believe in). It just seems a bit ridiculous from my perspective.

I don't see how God being the ultimate author of salvation is a problem. Certainly the Bible teaches a form of determinism, but I don't see how this contradicts free will (ie. Compatabilist free will).

 

[Chris Blanks]

Compatabilism is a joke, the very essence of it contradicts free will. To say that we all have an eventual fate but we choose how to get there,is just plain stupid. If I am destined to live to 80, and I have free will, I can kill myself at age 20, thus defying fate. Compatabilism cannot work.

 

[GrizzlyMonKeH]

Compatabilism is a joke, the very essence of it contradicts free will. To say that we all have an eventual fate but we chose to to get there is just plain stupid. If I am destined to live to 80, and I have free will, I can kill myself at age 20, thus defying fate. Compatabilism cannot work.

I don't believe we have an eventual "fate". God has foreknowledge of what we will choose. That doesn't change the fact that we are making the choice. He can't force us to choose something. That would defeat the purpose of choice altogether.

 

[Girder of Loins]

I think we need to establish what God's "foreknowledge" even is. It is not like God is on our timeline and knows what is going to happen, it has already happened(relative to Him). He exists in the past, int he present, and in the future. Relative to Him(as time is relative), we are all in New Jerusalem, but relative to us, we are(currently) in October 16th, 2012 of the Gregorian Calender.

 

[Chris Blanks]

If god has foreknowledge of what we will choose then there is no choice. It seems like a choice to us, but really it is destined for us to do that particular action. But since fate is kind of stupid that doesn't matter.

 

[Shane Plew]

If God knew the choices that we would make and since God is eternal he knew exactly what would happen when he made humans, therefore defeating the idea of free will. Also, keep in mind that I am purely speculating about this under the presupposition that God exists, which I do not believe. Also, if God knows everything, he know exactly what he would do. This creates a paradox because if God is all powerful he would be able to choose what he will or will not do, but if he is also all knowing then he can't possibly make any decisions about what he would or wouldn't do. This makes one of those statements false, or both false. Since we are unable to determine which statement is false we might as well say both are false. If we decide to say that he is only all knowing, that means that he is a powerless observer. If he is only all powerful, then that would explain all of the mistakes he made when creating everything. This is the biggest contradiction in the Bible and the only possible way to resolve it is to cherry pick what to believe or to throw out the beliefs entirely.

 

[Girder of Loins]

Note: I do not believe this(as this is a topic I am still coming to terms with), but it is a possible explanation.

Who knows if God knows His future actions? He may exist on a timeline, just something completely different than our own that still allows Him to exist eternally and without creation. We don't know the physics of His universe(if He exists within a universe at all). We don't know.

Paradoxes are something every Christian will have to tackle on his own, as we simply will not know. We can theorize and speculate to the point that it makes sense, but we will never know 100% that what we say is infallible. All we know is what God has put in the Bible. Past that is speculation.

 

[Shane Plew]

Why would an all powerful god allow paradoxes and contradictions to exist in his holy/divinely inspired book, especially if he knew that we humans would come to the understanding that paradoxes can not exist? I don't understand what you see in this religion.

 

[Girder of Loins]

Paradoxes exist because it is two incompatible things coming into contact. From a purely physical understanding and interpretation of God and His universe, we will not understand it. Even as a Christian, some things are still obscure or uncertain, as we cannot know everything in a limited existence. Your skepticism is well-grounded, I just hope you don't become close-minded. Always keep an open mind, and that goes to Christians as well!

 

[Shane Plew]

Paradoxes exist because it is two incompatible things coming into contact. From a purely physical understanding and interpretation of God and His universe, we will not understand it. Even as a Christian, some things are still obscure or uncertain, as we cannot know everything in a limited existence. Your skepticism is well-grounded, I just hope you don't become close-minded. Always keep an open mind, and that goes to Christians as well!

I hope you don't think that deciding not to believe in the impossible is close-minded.

 

[Girder of Loins]

I don't think it is, but I think denying its possibility is close-minded.

 

[CalledOutOne]

Compatabilism is a joke, the very essence of it contradicts free will. To say that we all have an eventual fate but we choose how to get there,is just plain stupid. If I am destined to live to 80, and I have free will, I can kill myself at age 20, thus defying fate. Compatabilism cannot work.

Obviously you don't understand compatibilism. Determinism is not compatible with libertarian free will, but it is compatible with a variety of free will.

In compatibilism free will is kind of a misnomer. "Bound will" is a better term. For instance, you are bound to do what your heart is inclined to do. If the heart (ie. the will) is evil then you will do nothing but evil unless another force acts on the will such as the conscience or regeneration (ie. being given a new heart).

Another similar view would be the "fish bowl" view. The fish bowl is the heart. You as the fish are free to roam the fish bowl wherever you please, but you cannot leave the bowl: You are free to do whatever your heart is inclined to do. You cannot move outside of the fish bowl but outside forces can move your bowl.

This example isn't perfect, but it is a good explanation of the compatibilist view of free will (which is different than the non-determinist view.)

 

[Chris Blanks]

I do understand compatibility but it breaks the "laws" very of fate and free will. To have actually free will you must be able to do anything you please, to jump out of the bowl. And finally fate to work you must have an end point, you are fated to die in that bowl and have no way out of your own accord, there is no freedom in that, no matter what you do you will die in that bowl, you have no will, be it bound or free. Free will and fate cannot interact with each other having one will automatically void the other