I think I regret

JoabAnias · Feb 23, 2011

Brikkz said:
I can explain purgatory to an extent its a concept not a place but i was taught several things in RCIA about purgatory not just 1 thing. I also understand the mass, saints, the eucharist, baptism etc

i am just not a theologian and like joshua g said its like getting married theres no turning back

At the rate you absorb and inquire you will be in no time. Give it 10-20 years.

benedictaoo · Feb 23, 2011

JimR-OCDS said:
No you can't. Faith comes from God alone.

Intellect can help you to open yourself up to faith, but it must come from God.

Jim

read the CCC and the Baltimore catechism.

benedictaoo · Feb 23, 2011

Meepy said:
yes, this is true. Faith is a gift given by God, through grace and the promptings of the Holy Spirit. But through our intellect we can assent or reject that faith. Hence intellect is synergistic with faith.

Unless your a Calvinist and believe faith is irresistible. In that case, yes, reason, intellect, and free will have no involvement in faith.

and a person can conclude there is a "God" or a higher power buy just looking to creation, using his reason.

benedictaoo · Feb 23, 2011

JimR-OCDS said:
By being open to God, but faith comes from God nonetheless.

Everything we have was given to us.

Jim

a person can look at a sunset and see its beauty and with his reason, reason that this has to be created by a higher being.

The perfect order of the universe can indeed move someone through their reason to believe.

Its all a gift- but he can begin to reason by using his brains to know that a higher being exists just by looking at creation.

Andrew Ryan · Feb 23, 2011

Brikkz said:
I just feel weird here. Out of place.

I have a lot of questions only God can answer.

I think I know how you feel which is why I am easing myself into the Church. I often feel stupid in this forum but it's not a big deal, it's a process, we're always learning. None of us will know everything.

CruciFixed · Feb 23, 2011

Well I feel better for sure now.

Michie · Feb 23, 2011

Brikkz said:
Well I feel better for sure now.

Lady Bug · Feb 23, 2011

at least you already converted...even if you regress, you can come back in without having to do RCIA all over again...lol

Andrew Ryan · Feb 23, 2011

I think we all go through periods of doubts and unknowing but I think ultimately, if we work through it and keep to the faith, we will come out stronger than before.

CruciFixed · Feb 24, 2011

Yep and I had a good chat with someone who told me to stay on the path don't give up keep going forward. It will be okay so I feel like I will get out of this doubt/ regret in no time. Prayer is an important thing.

Rebekka · Feb 24, 2011

JimR-OCDS said:
They are not separate, but faith doesn't come through rationalization by the intellect.

Faith is a gift from God, which only God can give.

You can not think yourself into having faith, only belief.

Faith is God's revelation of Himself to the individual, however that may happen.

In Dutch there's only one word, "geloof", there are not two words, like "faith" and "belief".

And my husband and I are people who came to faith through our intellects, through rationalization. Probability theory was a great influence on me when I left agnosticism for belief. Faith is a gift from God, but I was given it through intellect, and the intellectualist approach that my husband had towards his faith - unlike my charismatic catholic friends, who tried their best for years to bring me to the church. It only rubbed me the wrong way because I did not "see", and all they could offer me was their unconvincing stories about their religious experiences that I was excluded from since I didn't have faith. We were going in circles, they didn't bring me anywhere, I didn't see God because I didn't "feel" anything. That wasn't the right approach for me. I need my ratio, that is where my strength is. And what I love about the catholic church is rationality, too. (Not just that - but it's an important part. All the church fathers etc.)

benedicta said:
a person can look at a sunset and see its beauty and with his reason, reason that this has to be created by a higher being.

The perfect order of the universe can indeed move someone through their reason to believe.

Its all a gift- but he can begin to reason by using his brains to know that a higher being exists just by looking at creation.

Exactly. In fact, looking at creation does more for my faith and humility than talking to people, no matter how religious they are.

Brikkz, we all have doubts from time to time. I've been going through a spiritual low lately, too. It's normal. It sucks, like life a lot of the time. I don't know where you are and whether you can see signs of spring yet - that always makes me hopeful and grateful again. There's resurrection in nature, every year.

Forrest GOP · Feb 24, 2011

Brikkz said:
Well I feel better for sure now.

Remember my last post -

Forrest GOP said:
The holiest woman in history was a young girl, around age 14 or 15. She became Mother of God and Mother of the Church.

It is all well and good to be able to argue doctrine and theology, but that is not what makes a good Catholic. What makes a good Catholic is the spirit of giving and humility, which you have displayed quite nicely. You are probably a far better Catholic than I.

Forrest GOP · Feb 24, 2011

Rebekka said:
In Dutch there's only one word, "geloof", there are not two words, like "faith" and "belief".

I had no idea that Antartica was a country.

Rebekka · Feb 24, 2011

Forrest GOP said:
I had no idea that Antartica was a country.

It's a continent.

JimR-OCDS · Feb 24, 2011

Rebekka;

And my husband and I are people who came to faith through our intellects, through rationalization.

This opens you up to faith, but unless God revealed himself to you, through whatever ways and means, you may have belief, but not faith.

God's revelation can come to us in many ways, but it is his gift and unless we have that experience of God in our lives, we may have belief, through rationalization, but have yet to have faith.

Faith is what draws us forward in our relationship with God. We are moved toward the spiritual union with him, which St John of the Cross calls the spiritual marriage.

Without faith, you may be merely practicing religion and for many who are in this situation, religion eventually fails them and the quit. Happens to many Catholics who are baptised as infants and raised in the Church, but have no experience of Jesus in their lives.

Probability theory was a great influence on me when I left agnosticism for belief. Faith is a gift from God, but I was given it through intellect, and the intellectualist approach that my husband had towards his faith - unlike my charismatic catholic friends, who tried their best for years to bring me to the church.

As I said earlier, intellect and faith are not separate in that we need intellect to open ourselves to faith.

However, faith itself comes from God alone.

Choosing to believe in God is not faith, just belief and even the demons believe in God.

Its why some of the holiest of Saints were those who had the simplest intellects.

Their faith wasn't the result of their own rationalization, but the revelation of God himself to them.

Jim

JimR-OCDS · Feb 24, 2011

benedictaoo said:
and a person can conclude there is a "God" or a higher power buy just looking to creation, using his reason.

It may be God reveals Himself to the person through viewing His creation, but there are many who see God in creation and end up following pantheism.

Faith is the experience of God's revelation to the individual, however that may happen.

It comes from God and is felt in the heart.

The mind merely opens our hearts to God, but it is God who gives the grace in which we grown in faith.

Jim

Rebekka · Feb 24, 2011

JimR-OCDS said:
This opens you up to faith, but unless God revealed himself to you, through whatever ways and means, you may have belief, but not faith.

As I said, in Dutch we only have one word for it. That makes it hard for me to see a difference.

As for the "no experience of Jesus in their lives" - I don't know, I can't say that there was a lightning bolt type of experience, "it happened on this exact moment". That's like how protestants speak of the moment when they were "saved", whereas we see it as a process.

JimR-OCDS · Feb 24, 2011

Rebekka said:
As I said, in Dutch we only have one word for it. That makes it hard for me to see a difference.

As for the "no experience of Jesus in their lives" - I don't know, I can't say that there was a lightning bolt type of experience, "it happened on this exact moment". That's like how protestants speak of the moment when they were "saved", whereas we see it as a process.

The experience can be as little as the a twinge in the heart.

I'm not necessarily talking about an apparition or such, although that has happened to some, St. Paul being one.

It depends on the person and where God meets them.

Jim

Meepy · Feb 24, 2011

Joshua G. said:
JA:

I'd agree... although I think this applies according to our abilities and place in this world. Learning a lot about theology too much can be a stumbling block for some and even a source of pride.

I disagree. Wisdom is divine knowledge and is a wonderful thing. A whole book in the bible is named after wisdom.

Theology can strengthen ones faith, because they learn and study it more and thus are more able to internalize it intellectually. It gives a brighter light to the understanding of scriptures. Dogmas help form our conscience, both moral and civil. The saints teach us great feats of human faith and sacrifice. Scholasticism teaches that faith isn't just some mindless thing. You can learn something new that a saint has said and it can drastically effect and strengthen your faith. You start pondering things that you have never thought of before.

You can never learn enough about God, the Church and the scriptures. Everything you learn gives you a more formed perspective on things. It makes you more sure of your faith and makes you able to defend it easier. It teaches the wisdom of God.

Theology is not a stumbling block. It is a treasure chest and a journey towards the learning of the divine. It opens up perspectives and illuminates the lights along the road to salvation. It helps answer the hard to answer questions and helps give perspective to the difficulties that many Christians have. It makes one ready to defend the faith in dignity when one is confronted with heresy or schism.

Joshua G. · Feb 24, 2011

Rebekka:

This is what I found in a dictionary (but I have no context to verify if what I am saying makes sense).

a belief: Een overtuiging
the faith: De trouw

does that help?

I think I regret

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