I Thess.4 and I Cor. 15 are not Rapture Verses

[AVBunyan]

Here is my take - I used to think I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15 were rapture verses but have since been shown differently by someone who told me to read the context for a change.


1. The context is the second coming - read it again with this in mind - it fits.

2. Both books are Acts transitional books when the body of Christ was not completely formed and you still have the message to the Jews going on which included the second coming - Acts 3:19-21 for example. During the early part of Acts especially the second coming of Christ was still possible.

3. Don't missread me - I firmly believe the church is not going through any part of the tribulation.

a. Revelation is an extension of the OT and the church, which is his body, is not in the OT.

b. The church of Ephesians, which is his body, cannot be found in Revelation - not even in the first three chapters like I used to think.

c. The church is not involved in prohecy - Israel is the subject of prophecy and Revelation is a prophetic book.

For a "gettin' out of here" verse prior to the seven years - I like Col. 3:1-4. Plus the church is seated in heavenly places in Christ - they won't be coming back down out of Christ to go through the tribulation.


I think the reason so many folks think the church is going through the tribulation is that they don't understand the uniqueness and purpose of the church. Plus folks can't seem to get what is for Israel and what is for the body of Christ - they mix them together.


Your thoughts - I know it is unconventional but check it out.

God bless

 

[R.J.S]

Here is my take - I used to think I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15 were rapture verses but have since been shown differently by someone who told me to read the context for a change.

I disagree, they are for the church and speak of the rapture. Well at least 1 Thess 4 does

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Here is my take - I used to think I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15 were rapture verses but have since been shown differently by someone who told me to read the context for a change.


1. The context is the second coming - read it again with this in mind - it fits.

1 cor 15:51-52 are definitely a rapture verse

who is paul talking to .....believers 1 cor 1:2 set apart in christ

what trumpet are they talking about ?

1. trumpets of angels? revelations
2. trumpet of God 1 thes 4:16

in 1 cor 15:57 really puts itt into context!

1 thes 4:17 this is the church meeting JC in the air ...this is the day of Christ phil 1:6 where we are perfected when we come face to face with are savior eph 5:25-27 before we meet the Father

 

[2Timothy2]

AVB, I disagree with just about everything you posted. So, rather than run all that down, here is what I do agree with you on, from your post.

The context is the second coming

Yes, but this does not negate the fact it also covers the rapture.

Revelation is an extension of the OT

Sort of

the church, which is his body

Absolutely. I assume it was a typo not capitalizing "His".
And Col 1:4 does speak of the rapture/2nd coming.

Other than that, we disagree. Respectfully.

 

[Affinity]

I disagree, they are for the church and speak of the rapture. Well at least 1 Thess 4 does

1 Thess. 4 speaks of the resurrection of the dead, which VERY CLEARLY does not occur in the book of Revelation till near the end!

DLM

 

[R.J.S]

1 Thess. 4 speaks of the resurrection of the dead, which VERY CLEARLY does not occur in the book of Revelation till near the end!

DLM

The wicked dead are ressurected at the end of the millenium, however the redeemed dead are ressurrected before the millenium.

 

[Affinity]

As for this obsurd theory of a "pre-tribulation rapture", I believe the apostle Paul warned us about these kinds of teachings in the latter days in 2 Timothy 4:3 -

"For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to right teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever they want to hear. They will reject the truth and follow strange myths."

This pre-trib garbage is certainly a "strange myth". It would have been completely strange and forgien to the early church, and for that matter the church up through the centuries, up until about 150 years ago, when a man by the name of Darby invented it, who was in essences following his "own desires". Do your homework and read up on this person Darby who is credited with coming up with the pre-trib theory. I bet you'll be very surprised!

DLM

 

[Affinity]

The wicked dead are ressurected at the end of the millenium, however the redeemed dead are ressurrected before the millenium.

Yes, the redeemed are resurrected before the millenium, but AFTER the tribulation. Therefore, 1 Thess. 4 is also fulfilled AFTER the tribulation, since it referrs to the resurrection of the redeemed dead, who are resurrected BEFORE what is referred to as the "rapture" takes place. Add it all up, and you have what is called a post-tribulation rapture. Plain and simple.

DLM

 

[FreeinChrist]

Here is my take - I used to think I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15 were rapture verses but have since been shown differently by someone who told me to read the context for a change.


1. The context is the second coming - read it again with this in mind - it fits.

2. Both books are Acts transitional books when the body of Christ was not completely formed and you still have the message to the Jews going on which included the second coming - Acts 3:19-21 for example. During the early part of Acts especially the second coming of Christ was still possible.

3. Don't missread me - I firmly believe the church is not going through any part of the tribulation.

a. Revelation is an extension of the OT and the church, which is his body, is not in the OT.

b. The church of Ephesians, which is his body, cannot be found in Revelation - not even in the first three chapters like I used to think.

c. The church is not involved in prohecy - Israel is the subject of prophecy and Revelation is a prophetic book.

For a "gettin' out of here" verse prior to the seven years - I like Col. 3:1-4. Plus the church is seated in heavenly places in Christ - they won't be coming back down out of Christ to go through the tribulation.


I think the reason so many folks think the church is going through the tribulation is that they don't understand the uniqueness and purpose of the church. Plus folks can't seem to get what is for Israel and what is for the body of Christ - they mix them together.


Your thoughts - I know it is unconventional but check it out.

God bless

I disagree about those verses being of the rapture (which I beleive is pretrib).

I am wondering why you write this, though:

"b. The church of Ephesians, which is his body, cannot be found in Revelation - not even in the first three chapters like I used to think."

Can you explain?

 

[MbiaJc]

=AVBunyan

Here is my take - I used to think I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15 were rapture verses but have since been shown differently by someone who told me to read the context for a change.

Right there is no rapture, the resurrection takes place at the Seventh Trumpet.

1. The context is the second coming - read it again with this in mind - it fits.



2. Both books are Acts transitional books when the body of Christ was not completely formed and you still have the message to the Jews going on which included the second coming - Acts 3:19-21 for example. During the early part of Acts especially the second coming of Christ was still possible.

It is also still possible and may occur any time now.

3. Don't missread me - I firmly believe the church is not going through any part of the tribulation.

Not so! The tribulation ends before the Sixth Seal. Jesus doesnt come back for his Church till after the Sixth Seal because the Seventh Trumpet can't blow till the Sixt Seal has opened. Compare Matt. 24:29-31 with Sixth Seal and Seventh Trumpet.



29“Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[c]

30“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Rev. 6: 12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.



Rev. 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign for ever and ever.” 16And the twentyfour elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign. 18The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name,
both small and great– and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

a. Revelation is an extension of the OT and the church, which is his body, is not in the OT.

Not so! The Church has been around since the first Israelite was saved.

b. The church of Ephesians, which is his body, cannot be found in Revelation - not even in the first three chapters like I used to think.

All the Churches including the OT Church is His body.

c. The church is not involved in prohecy - Israel is the subject of prophecy and Revelation is a prophetic book.

Do you not know the Church is Spiritual Israel?

For a "gettin' out of here" verse prior to the seven years - I like Col. 3:1-4. Plus the church is seated in heavenly places in Christ - they won't be coming back down out of Christ to go through the tribulation.

We are already sitting in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, here and now.

I think the reason so many folks think the church is going through the tribulation is that they don't understand the uniqueness and purpose of the church. Plus folks can't seem to get what is for Israel and what is for the body of Christ - they mix them together.

I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, because any way you slice Jesus don’t return for his Church till the Seventh Trumpet. This blows after the Sixth Seal, which is not unsealed till after the tribulation.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

ever check out the rewards promise to the church....

crown of rejoicing 1 thes 2:19
crown of righteousness 2 tim 4:8
crown of life james 1:12
crown of glory 1 peter 5:4
crown of incoruptible 1 cor 9:25

when does the church Get them................... rev4:4,10

seals start in chapter five

 

[MbiaJc]

ever check out the rewards promise to the church....

crown of rejoicing 1 thes 2:19
crown of righteousness 2 tim 4:8
crown of life james 1:12
crown of glory 1 peter 5:4
crown of incoruptible 1 cor 9:25

when does the church Get them................... rev4:4,10

seals start in chapter five

At the 7th trumpet Rev. 11:18

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Giving a verse with no explanation .....

my verses come before the seven seal ....and it agrees with romans 5:9, 8:1..yes there are believer during the trib but the church is out of there.

 

[Zadok7000]

Ezek. 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

I sure know how to make an impression, don't I?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

1 cor 15:51-54 mystery of the rapture of the church

OT saints did not know of the church or the rapture.....

you will find nothing in the OT about this...

 

[Zadok7000]

1 cor 15:51-54 mystery of the rapture of the church

OT saints did not know of the church or the rapture.....

you will find nothing in the OT about this...

Was not Ezekiel a prophet? Did the LORD not give him prophecy? Chapers 40-44 are about CHRIST'S Millenial Temple - obviously still future to us today. Does not Daniel fortell of events that have not yet come to pass? Jeremiah? Isaiah? Does not JESUS speak to this fact? If there was such a thing as a rapture before the 7th Trumpet (what 1Cor 15:52 is referring to), the OT would witness to it. ALL prophecy has a double witness: one in the Old Testament and one in the New Testament. There is no gathering back to CHRIST before the 7th Trumpet. Ezekiel Chapter 13 applies to teachers today who teach the rapture doctrine.

The word "last" in verse 1Cor 15:51 is Greek# 2078 eschatos (es'-khat-os);
farthest, final (of place or time)

There are 7 trumpets in Revelation and (as a 2nd witness) 7 Trumpets in Joshua chapter 6 - in the Old Testament. As in Joshua 6:20, after the 7th Trumpet was sounded with a great shout, the future event is referred to in 1Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

The last Trumpet is the 7th, that is when we are ALL changed to our spiritual bodies - when the true CHRIST returns! Rev. 20:5-6 says, (which is right after the last/7th trump) that "This is the first resurrection." That's because it is the first. There is no prior rapture.

 

[Zadok7000]

That I was once a pre-trib rapture believer myself. I read and watched everything I could from Hal Lindsay, Jack Van Impe, John Hagee, etc. Then the LORD showed me (via HIS WORD) that I was listening to man's word. Then I started studying with a KJV Bible and a Strong's Concordance so even man's translation of the WORD was removed from the equation. I could check out any word I wanted to in the original language HE wrote it in.

And for something as earth-shaking as a pre-trib rapture would be, HE would hide nothing from the Old Testament prophets: Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

It would be the ONLY prophecy that is not contained in the OT. Our FATHER does not work that way. Instead, HE of course knew the future and addressed those who today teach the fly-away at-any-moment rapture doctrine in Ezekiel 13. The book of Revelation ("unveiling") uncovers all of the prophecies in the Old Testament - one cannot be understood without the other.

 

[Dave Taylor]

1 cor 15:51-54 mystery of the rapture of the church

OT saints did not know of the church or the rapture.....

you will find nothing in the OT about this...

Actually, you are in error.

Paul quoted from both Job and Isaiah in regards to the resurrection that he is talking about in I Corinthians 15.

It was clear to Paul that all of his audience who were familiar with the OT writings concerning the resurrection; would be familiar with his quotations from Job and Isaiah about the resurrection.

• Paul referenced Job 14 with I Corinthians 15:51:
  
  
  "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
  
  I Corinthians 15:51
  
  --
  
  "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come." Job 14:12​
• Paul referenced Isaiah 25 with I Corinthians 15:54
  
  
  "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." I Corinthians 15:53-54
  
  --
  
  "Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it." Isaiah 24:23, 25:8​

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Was not Ezekiel a prophet? Did the LORD not give him prophecy? Chapers 40-44 are about CHRIST'S Millenial Temple - obviously still future to us today. Does not Daniel fortell of events that have not yet come to pass? Jeremiah? Isaiah? Does not JESUS speak to this fact? If there was such a thing as a rapture before the 7th Trumpet (what 1Cor 15:52 is referring to), the OT would witness to it. ALL prophecy has a double witness: one in the Old Testament and one in the New Testament. There is no gathering back to CHRIST before the 7th Trumpet. Ezekiel Chapter 13 applies to teachers today who teach the rapture doctrine.

The word "last" in verse 1Cor 15:51 is Greek# 2078 eschatos (es'-khat-os);
farthest, final (of place or time)

There are 7 trumpets in Revelation and (as a 2nd witness) 7 Trumpets in Joshua chapter 6 - in the Old Testament. As in Joshua 6:20, after the 7th Trumpet was sounded with a great shout, the future event is referred to in 1Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

The last Trumpet is the 7th, that is when we are ALL changed to our spiritual bodies - when the true CHRIST returns! Rev. 20:5-6 says, (which is right after the last/7th trump) that "This is the first resurrection." That's because it is the first. There is no prior rapture.

1 peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 seaching what, or what manner of time the spirit of Christ which was by them did signify, when it testified before hand the suffering of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

why? How did the KING suffer.... was there question....

the prophesied but did not understand.....

 

[MbiaJc]

Giving a verse with no explanation .....

my verses come before the seven seal ....and it agrees with romans 5:9, 8:1..yes there are believer during the trib but the church is out of there.

Nope! The Church doesn't leave till the 7th trumpet, which can't blow till after the 6th seal. The 6th seal doesn't happen till the end of the Tribulation, read Matt. 24:29 The 7th trumpet is when Jesus hands out the rewards. I used to be pre-trib till I learned the truth. The Church will be on earth during the trubulation, however God will protect her, same as he did the Iserolites during the plagues before they came out of Egypt. hope that helps