i really need to talk to someone

[rmwilliamsll]

Thirdly, pray is the right way to approach the problem but not the right way to solve the problem. God will not talk directly to you in your dreams and prayers and give you propositional knowledge about the issue. If He does, that issue ought to be more important than the creation one. God will speak through the Scriptures however and will use lots of other words to get His message to you. the attitude is one of prayer but it doesn't stop there.

If this is what you believe then I can understand why you take the position you do. That isn't the case however with everyone. This is why normal, intelligent, educated people have and will continue to face persecution, torture and death. God has talked to them directly.

there is no direct correlation between holding to the doctrine of continuing revelation and persecution, torture and death.

there is however a direct bearing on the doctrine of the inspiration, authority and sufficiency of Scripture and holding to the erronous doctrine of continuing revelation.

AFAIK only JW, LDS and some SDA hold to continuing revelation and claim to be Christians. There are some in the prophetic and charismatic movements that make similiar claims but shy away from putting their revelations on the same level as Scripture.

Please note the careful use of the adjective "propositional" in my posting.

however that is a different topic and doesn't address the issues the OP does. you may therefore have the last word.

 

[Pats]

Dylan, I pray you find the answers you are looking for. There is never anything wrong with the desire to understand our faith logically.

I should have shared my personal testimony on why I have chosen to remain a creationist with you, and I'd like to do that now.

Science may not fully support creation (not that it fully supports common descent either.)

How could science explain creation? Creation was a miracle.

My choice to believe in creation is based in faith. And faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Here's a big hug, sister.

 

[Dannager]

If humans came from the dirt, how could we have also come frome monkeys. Think about it.

Uh, pretty easily, seeing as how the evolution of the ape came after the evolution of creatures that lived in the dirt. Evidence for evolution really is as strong as we portray it to be. We're not yanking your chain or kidding with you.

 

[Dannager]

Science may not fully support creation (not that it fully supports common descent either.)

How could science explain creation? Creation was a miracle.

My choice to believe in creation is based in faith. And faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Pats, it isn't a matter of whether or not science supports creation. It's a matter of whether or not the world around us has the appearance of contradicting a literal reading of the Genesis account, and the answer to that is a resounding yes. Science can't say anything for or against creation, ever. The world could have been created yesterday in the blink of an eye and science wouldn't be able to tell the difference. If that happened, though, or if any creation took place with apparent age, it sets God up as deceptive, knowing full well that we'd eventually investigate the age of the earth. The God I believe in is not one who would do such a thing.

 

[Dylan_Chica]

thanx for the hug pats, that means alot...

dannager, only one question, if the six days creation is in the bible so that people at the time could comprehend it, what then about the 6000 years? why isn't the earth 6000 years old if god said so, when they didn't use big numbers like that back then?

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

A number like 6000 certainly would have been used in the days that the first books of the bible were written.

Judges 1:4
They killed ten thousand men at Bezek.


Judges 15:15
With it he slaughtered one thousand men.

Numbers 31:35
The women who had never had sex with a man numbered 32,000.

Judges 7:3
And 22,000 men left.

Numbers 25:9
The plague had killed 24,000 Israelites.



They just did not use numbers in the billions.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

If humans came from the dirt, how could we have also come frome monkeys. Think about it.

Pat, science does say that we came from dust, if only you would listen to creation and not fear it.

Shortly after the event that created our universe, the energy being carried along by the expansion of space/time cooled and condensed into atoms, dust if you will.

This dust clumped together and grew, it was mostly hydrogen and helium, maybe a few other of the lighter elements, but it eventually formed the early stars and galaxies.

The first stars grew old and died, in their deaths they spewed out much hydrogen and helium that they had not burned but also heavier things like carbon and iron and all other natural heavy elements into giant clouds of dust that we call nebulas.

One of these nebulas collapsed to form our solar system.

We are dust, the dust of the universe, molded throughout time by God into what we are today.

I find the real creation to be far more fascinating and beautiful, showing us so much more of Gods glory then the literal reading of a creation myth that some would have me take up again.

Do not fear God’s creation Pat, or any other creationist out there, God’s universe is laid before us to read, just as much as the Bible is. Creation may tell us a different story than we read in the Bible, but if Christianity is right and God is the creator, then both stories are from him and both have meaning to us. We should not ignore God’s spoken word, creation, and only concentrate on His written word.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

thanx for the hug pats, that means alot...

dannager, only one question, if the six days creation is in the bible so that people at the time could comprehend it, what then about the 6000 years? why isn't the earth 6000 years old if god said so, when they didn't use big numbers like that back then?

Could you please find where in the Bible where God says how old the Earth is?

I know a man by the name of Ussher came up with a date like that after playing with some numbers and making up some birthdays, but I have never seen anyone show that the Bible actually gives an age of the Earth.

 

[shernren]

AFAIK only JW, LDS and some SDA hold to continuing revelation and claim to be Christians. There are some in the prophetic and charismatic movements that make similiar claims but shy away from putting their revelations on the same level as Scripture.

Claiming to have fresh, new, original insights direct from God and putting them on the same level as Scripture is where all cults begin.

dannager, only one question, if the six days creation is in the bible so that people at the time could comprehend it, what then about the 6000 years? why isn't the earth 6000 years old if god said so, when they didn't use big numbers like that back then?

Did God say in Genesis 1 that the earth is 6,000 years old? After all, Genesis 1 doesn't say "In the year 3994 BC, God created ... ", it just says "In the beginning, God created ... ".

I guess that the easiest way to look at this is to put yourself in the position of a Jewish child. Let's say one day you ask your dad:

"Why don't we have a nature god, like the Canaanites who worship Baal?"

"Why do we keep the Sabbath?"

"And where did the world come from, anyway?"

And Genesis 1 is an answer to all these questions.

In Genesis 1, "in the beginning God ... " which shows that God was there from the beginning, whereas nature was not. Also, God created nature. So anything in nature has a lower status than God. We can't look at the sun or the moon and then bow down to them because they were created just as we were created: we worship God because God created everything.

In Genesis 1 God rested on the seventh day. So we should rest on the seventh day too.

And in Genesis 1, we are told that God made the heavens and the earth. Fullstop. And the climax of creation is when God makes man. God makes man "in our own image", and yet God forms man "from the dust of the earth". Man is a hybrid of spiritual life and physical life. The fact that man is last created in the order of things shows that he is the most important component of the world and maybe even that the world was created for him and for his enjoyment. (I know I should be using "he and she" and all that but I'm lazy to. It's understood, yeah?)

So look at it that way: Genesis 1 is God telling us who He is (as a Creator), what nature is (as the created), what rest is (it's good to rest!) and who we are (made in the image of God). There's a lot more of course, but that's the basics of it. And none of this really changes whether the earth is 6,000 years old or a few billion years old.

 

[The Lady Kate]

thanx for the hug pats, that means alot...

dannager, only one question, if the six days creation is in the bible so that people at the time could comprehend it, what then about the 6000 years? why isn't the earth 6000 years old if god said so, when they didn't use big numbers like that back then?

Because God never said 6,000 years. James Ussher said it.

 

[LoG]

there is no direct correlation between holding to the doctrine of continuing revelation and persecution, torture and death.
there is however a direct bearing on the doctrine of the inspiration, authority and sufficiency of Scripture and holding to the erronous doctrine of continuing revelation.

I never mentioned "continuing"revelation.That is your invention.

AFAIK only JW, LDS and some SDA hold to continuing revelation and claim to be Christians. There are some in the prophetic and charismatic movements that make similiar claims but shy away from putting their revelations on the same level as Scripture.

Guess we better add TE's to the list since their doctrine is not only on the same level but actually supercedes the scriptures. It is after all a supposed continuing revelation that God is revealing through the evolutionary sciences. By your own judgement: "the erronous doctrine of continuing revelation" TE doctrine should have no place in the mainstream churches.

Claiming to have fresh, new, original insights direct from God and putting them on the same level as Scripture is where all cults begin.

I agree, shenren.


The point in my original post is that prayer is the right way to approach the problem and the right way to solve the problem when discerning His answer.

 

[Gwenyfur]

When G-d said His word is faithful and true...He meant it.

don't fall for the humanistic evolutionistic wisdom of man...you can pm me anytime...

 

[shernren]

Guess we better add TE's to the list since their doctrine is not only on the same level but actually supercedes the scriptures. It is after all a supposed continuing revelation that God is revealing through the evolutionary sciences. By your own judgement: "the erronous doctrine of continuing revelation" TE doctrine should have no place in the mainstream churches.

What new doctrines does TE teach?

 

[Dannager]

When G-d said His word is faithful and true...He meant it.

That doesn't make it literal. Truth and literal fact are not the same thing when the truth is a moral and spiritual message.

don't fall for the humanistic evolutionistic wisdom of man...you can pm me anytime...

Don't fall for anything, Dylan_Chica. This is your decision to make - not one that anyone should be ordering you around about.

 

[Gwenyfur]

That doesn't make it literal. Truth and literal fact are not the same thing when the truth is a moral and spiritual message.

Truth is absolute with no qualifiers Dannager

Don't fall for anything, Dylan_Chica. This is your decision to make - not one that anyone should be ordering you around about.

Your age is showing again. That was an exhortation not an order

 

[The Lady Kate]

Truth is absolute with no qualifiers Dannager

That doesn't mean any of us know for certain what it is yet.

Your age is showing again. That was an exhortation not an order

Let us hope and pray that Dylan was able to tell the difference.

 

[Dannager]

Truth is absolute with no qualifiers Dannager

And I hold that the Bible is absolutely true, but that certain parts are not literal, historical fact.

Your age is showing again. That was an exhortation not an order

Oh, stop it. You can call it whatever you'd like to call it - that's not going to change how it was perceived. And for what it's worth, your target is naught but two years older than myself.

 

[Dylan_Chica]

ok i'm afraid to ask this because it makes me look stupid and it's embarrasing to ask but can somebody explain to me please... god created adam and eve, right? then how can we have evolved from monkeys? i know i kind of pushed science away from me in school so i guess there is no excuse but i don't understand this... i really don't...

 

[Willtor]

ok i'm afraid to ask this because it makes me look stupid and it's embarrasing to ask but can somebody explain to me please... god created adam and eve, right? then how can we have evolved from monkeys? i know i kind of pushed science away from me in school so i guess there is no excuse but i don't understand this... i really don't...

As with all natural processes, they work by themselves, even as God works through them.

1. God moves nature.
2. Nature moves itself.

Neither statement is appropriate alone. Not that God is incapable of moving nature, alone, but that this is not what He does. To most TE's, it looks like He created Adam and Eve (or whomever they represent) and modern monkies using a common, ape-like ancestor. But evolution, in the general TE mindset, is not a process that occurs apart from the hand of God.

 

[Dylan_Chica]

As with all natural processes, they work by themselves, even as God works through them.

1. God moves nature.
2. Nature moves itself.

Neither statement is appropriate alone. Not that God is incapable of moving nature, alone, but that this is not what He does. To most TE's, it looks like He created Adam and Eve (or whomever they represent) and modern monkies using a common, ape-like ancestor. But evolution, in the general TE mindset, is not a process that occurs apart from the hand of God.

ok but he did create animals seperate from us? because he put adam and eve in charge of all the animals on earth, to rule over them or something