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Dylan_Chica

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hi i'm a christian catholic but i've always believed in creation and before i came to this forum i took it for granted but after discussing on PM with member of this forum who is a evolutionist (and i appreciate our conversation) i am now more unsure about my own faith on this area, there are things i have trouble understanding and the feeling of not knowing what to believe and feeling weak in your faith is very hard to deal with so i would appreciate it if someone could PM me to talk about this subject because i am having a hard time with this right now and i really want to understand it better so i can move on with my life. thanx and i'm sorry for taking up forum space with this topic
 

kenneth558

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Dylan_Chica said:
hi i'm a christian catholic but i've always believed in creation and before i came to this forum i took it for granted but after discussing on PM with member of this forum who is a evolutionist (and i appreciate our conversation) i am now more unsure about my own faith on this area, there are things i have trouble understanding and the feeling of not knowing what to believe and feeling weak in your faith is very hard to deal with so i would appreciate it if someone could PM me to talk about this subject because i am having a hard time with this right now and i really want to understand it better so i can move on with my life. thanx and i'm sorry for taking up forum space with this topic
Dylan_Chica, do not EVER let anyone talk you out of believing in a literal 6-day creation week. Believe God and you will never be ashamed.

Keep one thing in mind - the flood has changed the face of the earth more than old earthers want to believe. Peter warned us that people in the last days would willingly be ignorant of the destruction of the flood. If you discuss origins with anyone, make absolutely sure they believe in a worldwide flood that only eight people survived before you believe a word they say! And never mind the flak I'm going to get in this thread for telling you this.
 
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The Lady Kate

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Dylan_Chica said:
hi i'm a christian catholic but i've always believed in creation and before i came to this forum i took it for granted but after discussing on PM with member of this forum who is a evolutionist (and i appreciate our conversation) i am now more unsure about my own faith on this area, there are things i have trouble understanding and the feeling of not knowing what to believe and feeling weak in your faith is very hard to deal with so i would appreciate it if someone could PM me to talk about this subject because i am having a hard time with this right now and i really want to understand it better so i can move on with my life. thanx and i'm sorry for taking up forum space with this topic

Every Christian on Earth agrees as a matter of faith that God did create the world... even if we're not 100% sure of how. There's no reason for faith in that to be shaken by evolution.

The way I look at it is to remember that the Bible was written thousands of years ago for people who understood the world... historically, culturally, and spiritually, in a much different way than we do.

God is still God... that has not changed. Our understanding of Him is what has changed over the last 3,000 years.
 
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hsilgne

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Dylan_Chica said:
hi i'm a christian catholic but i've always believed in creation and before i came to this forum i took it for granted but after discussing on PM with member of this forum who is a evolutionist (and i appreciate our conversation) i am now more unsure about my own faith on this area, there are things i have trouble understanding and the feeling of not knowing what to believe and feeling weak in your faith is very hard to deal with so i would appreciate it if someone could PM me to talk about this subject because i am having a hard time with this right now and i really want to understand it better so i can move on with my life. thanx and i'm sorry for taking up forum space with this topic

Welcome Dylan_Chica,

First you should know that you are not alone. The media along with much of our education systems portray the evolutionists as "having it right". It's no wonder this idea has been so widely accepted. There are many in the same state as you. Including myself to a degree. My advice... research the facts for yourself. I can PM you some web sites and articles if you wish, let me know.

As for letting this issue shake your faith, specifically your Catholic faith, I urge you to talk with our pastor about it. The Catholic church does not endorse the theory of evolution, neither do they discount it.

Go here to learn more about the Catholic Church's belief.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04470a.htm

For the record, I am leaning towards a literal interpretation of Genesis. Less than five years ago, I was a staunch "evolutionist".

Peace to you.
 
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Mallon

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Best thing you can do, Dylan_Chica is to pray. Pray that God reveals His truth to you. Before I accepted theistic evolution, myself, I did the same, and continue to do so now. And especially now, I feel more validated in my faith than ever. I don't struggle for answers like I used to; in fact, the TE theology works for me and things seem to click. And none of this has cost me my faith or salvation. If anything, it has helped me to put my focus where it really belongs: on Christ and the cross. Nothing else really matters.
 
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shernren

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I would partially agree with kenneth558, but ...

Don't let anyone talk you into anything.

Look at the evidence for yourself. Where does it lead?

Read the Bible for yourself. What does it say?

And are the two going together? If not, how can we make them go together?

Pray. Do you think God is objecting to what you have decided to believe?

My situation was slightly different from yours but I think I can identify with what you are going through. When I first came here a year ago I was "well-trained" in all the creationist arguments and I thought that evolution was really atheism. And then by watching and listening to the people here, and checking back with what I knew and what I was researching, I found that they had a compelling argument for a Christian to believe in evolution. And that's how I became a Christian evolutionist.

But I didn't make the change overnight ... for a while I struggled with it. I toyed with some different ideas, like maybe God made the earth young and then somehow it just happens to look completely old. Maybe the scientific theories are right in scientific data but they didn't match up to reality - after all Creation is a miracle, right? And I wondered for a while. In the end the science was too solid for me to deny. But that's because I am a scientifically-minded person ... that's just me and my personality, and I don't expect everyone to be able to agree with me. Maybe you're not as scientific and you'll be thinking "Science is just a human endeavour, scientists make mistakes, I don't have to trust them" and that's fine with me. To be honest I'm not really so concerned about what you believe. What is more important is:

1. Why do you believe what you believe? Do you know why or is it just something you've assumed over the years? Are you confident that God is pleased with you believing something?

2. What will you do with what you believe? If we are believing in the right thing, we will bear the right fruits.

Lastly I want to say that creationism-evolutionism is not such a big issue. Once you've made up your mind about it you'll probably find that it isn't really a big deal after all. Life will go on ... you'll be singing the same hymns, greeting people the same way, praying for them, caring, doing your job, ... evolution won't make a difference unless some atheist asks you about creationism. Biblically speaking, we have about 11 chapters in the Bible on the origins of the world, plus various quotes ... compare that with 4 books on the life of Jesus alone. Which do you think is more important? :)

I just pray that God will guide you onto the road which will help you walk closest to Him. :) and feel free to PM me if you need any specific help.
 
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Mskedi

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Not believing in the story of Creation as put forth in Genesis is necessarily literal didn't shake my faith. The cornerstone of my faith is the resurrection of Jesus. I do believe that the world was created by God, but how long that took or in what order, in my opinion, really has no bearing on my life or my faith, so that doesn't concern me much.

I am fascinated by the discoveries that support evolution. My God is big enough to contain mysteries. I can love science and love God all at once.
 
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mark kennedy

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Dylan_Chica said:
hi i'm a christian catholic but i've always believed in creation and before i came to this forum i took it for granted but after discussing on PM with member of this forum who is a evolutionist (and i appreciate our conversation) i am now more unsure about my own faith on this area, there are things i have trouble understanding and the feeling of not knowing what to believe and feeling weak in your faith is very hard to deal with so i would appreciate it if someone could PM me to talk about this subject because i am having a hard time with this right now and i really want to understand it better so i can move on with my life. thanx and i'm sorry for taking up forum space with this topic

First of all, don't apologize for bringing this problem to this forum, that is why its here. Second, creation is tied to our faith but what is important is not you science but you relationship with Christ. Don't let something like Origins Theology shake your faith, it's not the main issue.

We don't really know how God created the universe or life in our world, how could we? We do know that God is involved in our lives and cared enough to send us His Son. Origins Theology is an important discussion and I hope you continue to purse it but you have to start with Christ and Him crucified.

Don't worry, this is not as tough as it seems.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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gluadys

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Dylan_Chica said:
there are things i have trouble understanding and the feeling of not knowing what to believe and feeling weak in your faith is very hard to deal with so i would appreciate it if someone could PM me to talk about this subject because i am having a hard time with this right now and i really want to understand it better so i can move on with my life. thanx and i'm sorry for taking up forum space with this topic

AS you see, you get different advice depending on where people are at in their own understanding, so in the long run you have to decide for yourself, taking it in prayer to God for guidance.

I can't fully identify with what you are going through because my switch from creationism to TE was swift. Like shernren, I knew all of the creationist arguments for why evolution could not be true before I ever looked at the science.

Science was not an attraction for me. I avoided it as much as I could in school. I am much more at home with literature than with science. But, as a first-year undergrad, I had to include a science course in my otherwise language and literature laden studies. So I chose a course in biology to find out why scientists were convinced of such a silly idea as evolution.

And it took just a day of reading to convince me. And my first reaction was to glorify God. Never at any time did I suppose that evolution = atheism, or that one has to ditch the bible to accept the scientific fact of evolution.

It did take a while to figure out how to put the science and my faith together in a coherent whole, but from the beginning I had faith that all truth is God's truth, and the truth of science and the truth of scripture could not conflict with each other, even if I couldn't see clearly how to reconcile them.

I don't know if you have a feel for science, as shernren does. If it interests you, by all means, study the science--from reputable scientific texts, not from those who are trying to convince you not to believe it. You will never have an accurate understanding of the history of the universe or of evolution if you avoid actual science in favour of its detractors.

But if you are not scientifically inclined, don't sweat it. The main thing to remember is that nothing in science displaces creation.

You might like to check out the writing of a Christian theologian in Britain by the name of John Polkinghorne (The Faith of a Physicist). Before he studied theology, he was a professor of physics at Oxford for 25 years. Today he spends a lot of time lecturing on the relationship of faith and science.


As a Catholic, you may be interested in the perspective of Catholic theologian, Hans Kung.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/187/story_18786_1.html

Kung is known as a liberal, so it is interesting that he and a conservative pope like Benedict are old friends and get on well together. Also, on the question of science and faith, they are much in agreement.
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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Do you think it would change your relationship with Jesus if you thought the world was 6000 years old or 4.5 billion? Would your faith be any different?

More importantly do you think Jesus cares if you think the world is 6000 year old or 4.5 billion? What if you didn't even care how old the world was?

Don't let anyone sway you one way or the other. Maybe it's best to reserve your opinion until you have studied the situation more. It really should not be something that causes you grief - you are here and God is with you what difference does it really make how old the rocks under your feet are?
 
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Dannager

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hsilgne said:
Welcome Dylan_Chica,

First you should know that you are not alone. The media along with much of our education systems portray the evolutionists as "having it right". It's no wonder this idea has been so widely accepted. There are many in the same state as you. Including myself to a degree. My advice... research the facts for yourself. I can PM you some web sites and articles if you wish, let me know.

As for letting this issue shake your faith, specifically your Catholic faith, I urge you to talk with our pastor about it. The Catholic church does not endorse the theory of evolution, neither do they discount it.

Go here to learn more about the Catholic Church's belief.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04470a.htm

For the record, I am leaning towards a literal interpretation of Genesis. Less than five years ago, I was a staunch "evolutionist".

Peace to you.
The Vatican recently released a statement criticizing the Intelligent Design movement and restating its support for the current findings of science. You can view the NY Times article at http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/19/science/sciencespecial2/19evolution.html?. You will need an account to view anything beyond the first 500 words but the story is available on plenty of other news sites (search Google for Vatican supports evolution and you should get the same article).
 
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Dylan_Chica

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hi everyone and thank you for your responses, and i will try to answer the pm's i have received as soon as i can, i appreciate it. to tell you the jist of my problem, i was raised in a catholic home but my parents are the type to never talk about or question anything, including faith, so i turned to the bible for answers. i still go to mass but i just sit there and listen and pray, i don't really talk to anyone. so i always believed in creation and the six days, i kind of shoved science away from me because i felt my faith was "safe". well, after coming here i started reading about christians who believe in evolution (most christians i have heard talk about it here in london laugh at the idea of us evolving from monkeys), and so i got into a conversation about evolution and god and i started thinking about it alot and alot of what was said made sense to me, but at the same time it actually made me cry, literally, because i have always felt that questioning what god tells us is wrong and i have criticized others for doing so before me, and here i am doing the same thing myself. it just developed into a personal crisis which deprived me of my sleep and i now don't know what to believe anymore. you are quite right, the faith in jesus christ and our love for him is the most important thing, but i also felt that, in addition to that, god gave us the bible so that we could know the truth about how we came to be, and i strongly believed in the six days creation but now i'm going "against" what god has told me and it breaks my heart, honestly, because i have always felt like if you stretch, or interpret, god's word too far it eventually will become wrong or "go against" what god wants us to know because there is only so far you can interpret something before it goes too far and becomes wrong. i hope you understand my problem, and i will reply to the pm's as soon as i have had dinner today. basically i feel that if we believe in evolution, we shape god's word around our own ideas so that it can fit us, not him, and i think that is wrong because god should come first, always, and here i am doing the same thing myself and for a strong believer such as myself it just breaks my heart. :sigh:
 
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The Lady Kate

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Dylan_Chica said:
to tell you the jist of my problem, i was raised in a catholic home but my parents are the type to never talk about or question anything, including faith, so i turned to the bible for answers.

Just my opinion here, but I don't think it's healthy to not ask questions... even about our faith.

Faith is not some weak fragile thing that needs to be protected... especially not from questions.

you are quite right, the faith in jesus christ and our love for him is the most important thing, but i also felt that, in addition to that, god gave us the bible so that we could know the truth about how we came to be,

Maybe not necessarily how, but certainly why we came to be.

Again, my opinion, certainly the more important question is answered.


and i strongly believed in the six days creation but now i'm going "against" what god has told me and it breaks my heart, honestly,

But isn't it possible that you're not going against what God has told you, but what you thought He was telling you?

Isn't it possible that God didn't get it wrong, but we have?

because i have always felt like if you stretch, or interpret, god's word too far it eventually will become wrong or "go against" what god wants us to know because there is only so far you can interpret something before it goes too far and becomes wrong.

Everything requires at least a little interpretation... if we don't interpret enough, it could come out just as wrong as something interpreted too much.


i hope you understand my problem, and i will reply to the pm's as soon as i have had dinner today. basically i feel that if we believe in evolution, we shape god's word around our own ideas so that it can fit us, not him, and i think that is wrong because god should come first, always, and here i am doing the same thing myself and for a strong believer such as myself it just breaks my heart. :sigh:

Don't let it break your heart... the worst that could be said is that maybe (and I do say maybe, because none of us can be sure yet) you've made a mistake.

If you've made a mistake, God forgives. God knows He's done it for all of us... what's one more?
 
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Pats

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Dylan_Chica said:
hi i'm a christian catholic but i've always believed in creation and before i came to this forum i took it for granted but after discussing on PM with member of this forum who is a evolutionist (and i appreciate our conversation) i am now more unsure about my own faith on this area, there are things i have trouble understanding and the feeling of not knowing what to believe and feeling weak in your faith is very hard to deal with so i would appreciate it if someone could PM me to talk about this subject because i am having a hard time with this right now and i really want to understand it better so i can move on with my life. thanx and i'm sorry for taking up forum space with this topic

This is a good topic for forum space. Since you started out a Creationist, I would encourage you to bring this topic up in the Creationist forum where TE's won't debate with us.

I think you already know what the Bible says, it was on your heart from before you came here. This is a message board. You don't know the people here. You don't even know how many people are here, as any one of us could post as different people in reality.

Take the advice and knowledge gleaned from others here as a springboard from wich to do you own research, whether that be scriptural or scientific.

Pray! Pray! Pray!

I've questioned my young earth creationist position myself from time to time, but I still know the evidence for evolution is NOT as strong as evolutionists portray and believe.

If humans came from the dirt, how could we have also come frome monkeys. Think about it.

I would like to make myself available to you at any time for talking or resources. Don't take anything you hear on any message board as fact without looking into the subject yourself ;)
 
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LewisWildermuth

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Pats said:
This is a good topic for forum space. Since you started out a Creationist, I would encourage you to bring this topic up in the Creationist forum where TE's won't debate with us.

So we evil TE's are not allowed to fellowship with and help a fellow Christian?
 
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Pats

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LewisWildermuth said:
So we evil TE's are not allowed to fellowship with and help a fellow Christian?

I myself have appreciated my conversations with the TEs here, both in this forum and the Creationist forum.

I was suggesting a less "debating" environment for a "help" thread, where posts like this one are less likely. Not saying anyone is "evil" or not allowed to help at all. :)
 
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rmwilliamsll

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I think how these sets of related posts are unfolding over time is interesting.

First, the issue does bother people, there is no getting around or minimizing the fact that Christians desire to have their theological beliefs and scientific notions in concert and coherent as a whole. Those who desire some type of cognitive dissonance simply neglect the cost of such on people.

Sometimes the right answer is personal, is church related, go to your Pastor is the right answer for spiritual problems. Is he always going to help? no. but with the grace of God he will be able to point to people or things what can help.

Thirdly, pray is the right way to approach the problem but not the right way to solve the problem. God will not talk directly to you in your dreams and prayers and give you propositional knowledge about the issue. If He does, that issue ought to be more important than the creation one. God will speak through the Scriptures however and will use lots of other words to get His message to you. the attitude is one of prayer but it doesn't stop there.

Lastly, it needs to be pointed out, that one of the major routes of deconversion is this issue. People do "loose their faith" over the questions. we do not need to minimize the problem by taking all the talk inhouse to only those who believe just like we do, for no one group has a monopoly on the truth. if you do, then when people encounter the options those options will blast them in the face with their newness and vigor, thus adding to the problem.
 
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I think that if God didn't want us to question He would not have given us minds. Skepticism is actually a good thing, even when it comes to religion. There are people out there who will tell you something to the extent of "I have read the bible more then you, and have insights that you can never have. If you don't listen to me you will burn in hell."

Why did so many people die in Waco and Guyana? Because they gave up skepticism out of fear. People are afraid to be skeptical because they think they will face damanation, or worse lose their faith. I think that healthy skepticism will actually enhance your faith, and I don't recall any commandment or statement in the bible that says "thou shalt not ask questions".
 
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rmwilliamsll said:
Thirdly, pray is the right way to approach the problem but not the right way to solve the problem. God will not talk directly to you in your dreams and prayers and give you propositional knowledge about the issue. If He does, that issue ought to be more important than the creation one. God will speak through the Scriptures however and will use lots of other words to get His message to you. the attitude is one of prayer but it doesn't stop there.

If this is what you believe then I can understand why you take the position you do. That isn't the case however with everyone. This is why normal, intelligent, educated people have and will continue to face persecution, torture and death. God has talked to them directly.
 
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