• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

I read it literally now

Calminian

Senior Veteran
Feb 14, 2005
6,789
1,044
Low Dessert
✟49,695.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
But isn't the false distiction between raqia and shamayim the bases for the ANE cosmology that has been posited? My point is almost exactly the one you made here; trying to distinguish detailed specific meanings from these words is a huge mistake. Hebrew (unlike many other languages) just doesn't work this way i.e. biblical Hebrew has a vocabulary that is magnitudes smaller than our English language but with a much higher frequency of synonyms because repetition of the same ideas using different words plays such an important part in Hebrew poetry.

Boy, beneichi, you are knocking these out of the park (not just here but just about every point you are hitting on). But this is the heart of the matter in this whole discussion.

If I could just piggyback on this, most of the confusion in interpreting terms in Genesis is linked to this very issue you are addressing. Earth, waters, stars, birds, fish, firmament, etc. None of these english translations perfectly match the hebrew terms as the english terms are much more precise. These are probably the closest matches, but not exact by any stretch. To us the term star has several meanings, from a celebrity to a nuclear ball of fusion in space. To the ancients it was much simpler. It's was a light in the sky that wasn't the moon or sun! This is why I like the term "luminaries" used by Young's.

But if you look at the usage of each term, the confusion seems to go away. No one looking at the usage of the term firmament or expanse would conclude it was a solid mass. That has to be imported, and can't be done without violating the usage of the term in context. (not withstanding the powerful arguments from Elihu's insights)

Also, looking back when I was a child first reading the book of Genesis, none of these ancient cosmologies came to my mind. I never saw solid domism in any portion of scripture. Nor do i think anyone else would in this age merely reading the text. The OP stated that she merely picked up the text without any preconceptions and came to the conclusion the rayqia was a solid dome. Sorry but I called her out then, as I'll do it now. I just doesn't happen that way. Only a scholar making complex etymological arguments brings this to the mind of a reader and only a reader looking for a way out of the natural reading would embrace it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
But if you look at the usage of each term, the confusion seems to go away. No one looking at the usage of the term firmament or expanse would conclude it was a solid mass.

Also, looking back when I was a child first reading the book of Genesis, none of these ancient cosmologies came to my mind. I never saw solid domism in any portion of scripture. Nor do i think anyone else would in this age merely reading the text.

No one being raised in a home with a television would--nor with books in the house that picture today's consensus on the organization of galaxies and solar systems.

But if one is being raised in a culture where the common understanding of 'firmament' (or its Hebrew equivalents) is that of a solid mass, it would be just as obvious that this is its meaning.

We tend to give words the meaning we normally associate with them.
And this is what sometimes leads to not understanding the scriptural text, because the meanings we associate with words are not always what the writer meant.

That is why we have to look at what the writer meant.




only a reader looking for a way out of the natural reading would embrace it.

There is no one natural reading. What is natural to an eight-year-old today is wildly out-of-synch with what would be natural to an eight-year-old 2500 years ago.

What we call "natural" is very much culturally conditioned and so varies from culture to culture.
 
Upvote 0

benelchi

INACTIVE
Aug 3, 2011
693
140
✟25,298.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Because clay stamped under a seal is necessarily flat. Someone trying to convey a round planet would not say "clay stamped under seal" any more than someone trying to convey a flat planet would say "like a ball floating in the air". A map of the planet will show distortions to clearly show that it represents a round planet.

Papias

Honestly I can't imagine reading this beautiful Hebrew poetry as literally as you have. And I can only imagine the cosmology you would infer from Emily Dickinson's work when she writes "Lightly stepped a yellow star to its lofty place, Loosed the Moon her silver hat From her lustral face."

To read the details into this poem that you have attempted to force on it destroys its powerful imagery. When I look at this section of Job's poem I see (vs. 12) a picture of the light that Only God is able to command;(vs. 13) a light that uncovers the blanket of darkness in the morning and exposes the hiding place of the wicked from which they flee. (vs. 14) A light that reveals the features of the earth that were hidden by the dark. (Vs. 15) When the light comes the wicked hide, their violence ceases when the light is present.

"Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken. (Job 38:12-15 NIV)


To give another example from the Hebrew poetry of the bible, let's look at the imagery of Eccl 12.

Remember your Creator in the days of your youth,
before the days of trouble come and the years approach when you will say, "I find no pleasure in them"--
before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars grow dark,
and the clouds return after the rain;
when the keepers of the house tremble, and the strong men stoop,
when the grinders cease because they are few, and those looking through the windows grow dim;
when the doors to the street are closed and the sound of grinding fades;
when people rise up at the sound of birds, but all their songs grow faint; (Ecc 12:1-4 NIV)

To read this literally would be to miss the artful imagery of aging i.e. a man who is going blind, whose hands shake, and whose back is stooped. A man who is loosing his teeth and his hearing. Hebrew poetry is rich in imagery and it is destroyed, just like English poetry is destroyed, by such a literal reading.
 
Upvote 0

benelchi

INACTIVE
Aug 3, 2011
693
140
✟25,298.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
No one being raised in a home with a television would--nor with books in the house that picture today's consensus on the organization of galaxies and solar systems.

But if one is being raised in a culture where the common understanding of 'firmament' (or its Hebrew equivalents) is that of a solid mass, it would be just as obvious that this is its meaning.

We tend to give words the meaning we normally associate with them.
And this is what sometimes leads to not understanding the scriptural text, because the meanings we associate with words are not always what the writer meant.

That is why we have to look at what the writer meant.


There is no one natural reading. What is natural to an eight-year-old today is wildly out-of-synch with what would be natural to an eight-year-old 2500 years ago.

What we call "natural" is very much culturally conditioned and so varies from culture to culture.

The idea that meaning is not shared across cultural contexts is a very postmodern idea posited by men like Jacques Derrida and it is an wonderful example of philosophy taken to the most absurd places.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The idea that meaning is not shared across cultural contexts is a very postmodern idea posited by men like Jacques Derrida and it is an wonderful example of philosophy taken to the most absurd places.
Postmodernism can certainly be taken too far, but how is what gluadys said that different from Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. That means the world, our cultural assumptions and understandings, are coming between us and understanding what God is saying. This has been true throughout church history, at least with postmodernism we can recognise that we are affected too, we interpret what God said to a people of a different time and culture through the filters of our own time and culture.
 
Upvote 0

benelchi

INACTIVE
Aug 3, 2011
693
140
✟25,298.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Postmodernism can certainly be taken too far, but how is what gluadys said that different from Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. That means the world, our cultural assumptions and understandings, are coming between us and understanding what God is saying. This has been true throughout church history, at least with postmodernism we can recognise that we are affected too, we interpret what God said to a people of a different time and culture through the filters of our own time and culture.

Modernism also recognizes that we interpret what God said to a people of a different time and culture through the filters of our own time and culture; the difference is that modernism seeks to remove those filters to the degree that it is possible but postmodernism posits that it is impossible to remove those filters with any degree of certainty at all. For the postmodern knowledge is an all or nothing proposition. We all agree that no one can know everything but the postmodern makes the illogical conclusion that nothing can be known with any degree of certainty at all.

The initial arguments of this thread began as modernist arguments i.e. seeking to understand the text as the author intended but has quickly taken a postmodern turn. A postmodern doesn't seek to understand authorial intent because he believes authorial intent is irrelevant; the post modern seeks to interpret the text through the lens of his own culture believing that is all that is possible.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Modernism also recognizes that we interpret what God said to a people of a different time and culture through the filters of our own time and culture; the difference is that modernism seeks to remove those filters to the degree that it is possible but postmodernism posits that it is impossible to remove those filters with any degree of certainty at all. For the postmodern knowledge is an all or nothing proposition. We all agree that no one can know everything but the postmodern makes the illogical conclusion that nothing can be known with any degree of certainty at all.

The initial arguments of this thread began as modernist arguments i.e. seeking to understand the text as the author intended but has quickly taken a postmodern turn. A postmodern doesn't seek to understand authorial intent because he believes authorial intent is irrelevant; the post modern seeks to interpret the text through the lens of his own culture believing that is all that is possible.
You would need to show that what gluadys said was what you call postmodernism, because her recognition of cultural differences and different cultural understandings of a text the sounds awfully like what you describe as modernism and recognise as valid.
 
Upvote 0

benelchi

INACTIVE
Aug 3, 2011
693
140
✟25,298.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You would need to show that what gluadys said was what you call postmodernism, because her recognition of cultural differences and different cultural understandings of a text the sounds awfully like what you describe as modernism and recognise as valid.


I agree that the discussion began from a modernist perspective but here is the statement I saw that appears to reflect a turn towards postmodernism i.e. "What we call "natural" is very much culturally conditioned and so varies from culture to culture." Linguists coming from a modernist perspective recognize that, while the differences in one cultural context can pose significant obstacles for understanding langauge of those in other contexts, there are some universal concepts that cross all cultural boundaries and provide a common framework for one context to understand the words of a differing context. The postmodern rejects the idea of any universal concepts and sees the obstacles to understanding as insurmountable.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
The idea that meaning is not shared across cultural contexts is a very postmodern idea posited by men like Jacques Derrida and it is an wonderful example of philosophy taken to the most absurd places.


I was introduced to postmodernism by my children, who had to study it in their philosophy classes. It has its good points and its bad points---like most philosophies. And it does get carried to extremes---like most philosophies.

Of course, it is possible to share meaning across cultural contexts, but you have to work at it. You have to recognize that culture shapes meaning and different cultures shape meanings in different ways. You can't begin by assuming that the culture that is normal for you is normal for everybody.

But once the existence of differences is recognized, then one can explore the variations in meaning and make oneself clear across cultural differences.




Modernism also recognizes that we interpret what God said to a people of a different time and culture through the filters of our own time and culture; the difference is that modernism seeks to remove those filters to the degree that it is possible but postmodernism posits that it is impossible to remove those filters with any degree of certainty at all. For the postmodern knowledge is an all or nothing proposition. We all agree that no one can know everything but the postmodern makes the illogical conclusion that nothing can be known with any degree of certainty at all.

Since every culture, including the biblical culture and our own culture and Inuit and Swahili and Mandarin cultures all have filters of some kind, how is it possible to remove all filters?

One can learn to express oneself in a different language, using its embedded filters. But that is simply exchanging one set of filters for another.

The initial arguments of this thread began as modernist arguments i.e. seeking to understand the text as the author intended but has quickly taken a postmodern turn. A postmodern doesn't seek to understand authorial intent because he believes authorial intent is irrelevant; the post modern seeks to interpret the text through the lens of his own culture believing that is all that is possible.


I don't know that that is true. If it is, then it is a weak point of postmodernism. All hermeneutics aims to interpret the text in terms of the culture of the current audience. But that doesn't make the intent of the author irrelevant. After all, the intent of the author is what one is supposedly interpreting, so understanding what the author intended is essential background to interpreting it.

What postmodernism would recognize is that the author is also expressing him/herself in terms of unrecognized cultural assumptions and filters that have their own blind spots, just as ours do.

An obvious example is the paucity of references to women in scripture. The feeding of the five thousand, for example, actually specifies five thousand men and merely mentions the presence of women and children without counting them.

So a thorough-going hermeneutics must look at that aspect of the author's composition as well. What assumptions is the author making that are alien to us?

I agree that the discussion began from a modernist perspective but here is the statement I saw that appears to reflect a turn towards postmodernism i.e. "What we call "natural" is very much culturally conditioned and so varies from culture to culture." Linguists coming from a modernist perspective recognize that, while the differences in one cultural context can pose significant obstacles for understanding langauge of those in other contexts, there are some universal concepts that cross all cultural boundaries and provide a common framework for one context to understand the words of a differing context. The postmodern rejects the idea of any universal concepts and sees the obstacles to understanding as insurmountable.

Now I know you are a bit off-base on postmodernism.

The post-modernist does not reject the idea of universal concepts which refer to universal human experiences. It is evident, for example, that we all have experiences like love, fear, hunger, pain, joy, etc. and all languages express these concepts in some way--so they are translatable and transferable from one context to another.

What the post-modernist rejects is imposing any one set of cultural assumptions as universal when it is not. In particular, post-modernism rejects the modernist assumption that modernism expresses universal truth. It identifies the modernist impulse as one culture-bound perspective (that of the autonomous, middle-class, white European male) among many, but which arrogates to itself the idea that it is the universal truth when it is not. It is actually a fairly narrow vision of truth, for it neglects the perspectives of many other groups of people, suppressing or denying or devaluing them.

Is there any one human cultural vision which is universal? The post-modernist would say no. Every cultural vision, past, present and likely future has its limits, its unrecognized assumptions, its blind spots.

Therefore, we must learn two things:
a) discover the unrecognized assumptions of our own culture and re-examine them
b) learn about other peoples, past and present, and how they think/thought both in order to understand them, and to better understand ourselves.

As any linguist will tell you, learning a second (and third and fourth) language opens a new window on one's own first language. One can speak English only all one's life and never have to understand what a subjunctive is or clearly discriminate between a nominative and accusative noun. But as soon as one aims to express oneself in French or Russian these things become important. And beyond European languages, the different ways of ordering thought are even wider.

Nevertheless, there is indeed enough commonality in human experience that we can learn other languages, understand and be understood in them.

But it takes work.

Post-modernism is basically the same idea applied to whole cultures and world-views, not just language. Just as there is no one universal or natural language--nor any language that is superior to others---so there is no one universal culture with all the right assumptions and no blind spots.

So we have to learn to listen carefully to people modernism tends not to listen to: women, non-literate peoples, people of different faiths, people of different ethnic groups, working people, people of differing abilities, and so on and so forth. All have something of value to tell us.

And we need to humbly recognize our own limitations and present our views, not as universal truths, but as what we discern from our experience as male/female, English/Gujarati/Yoruba speaker, athletic/quadraplegic--etc.

Through a give-and-take that recognizes both the values and the limitations of all particular cultures, we may indeed discover lots of human commonalities--something that genuinely approaches universal truths.

But it takes work.

Meaning can be shared. It cannot be assumed. In particular, it cannot be assumed that a word used in a different language, place, time and culture means what a 21st century American child thinks it means because of his/her exposure to what the current meaning of the word is. That would be the "plain meaning" to that child today. It doesn't make it the "plain meaning" the author intended or his/her target audience understood.

So, we have to work at learning what terms like 'raqia' and 'shamayim' actually meant when the text was written.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So even modernist linguists would recognise the problem with Cal's argument that as a child he didn't see ancient cosmologies in scripture. Modernist linguists would recognise the text would be understood differently by people from the ancient culture it was written in.

Interestingly the big difference you point out with post modernism, the failure of modernists to recognise that their own cultural perspective distorts their understanding too, is what Paul warns about in Romans 12, not being conformed to the world.
 
Upvote 0

Papias

Listening to TW4
Dec 22, 2005
3,967
988
59
✟64,806.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
benalchi wrote:
Honestly I can't imagine reading this beautiful Hebrew poetry as literally as you have. And I can only imagine the cosmology you would infer from Emily Dickinson's work when she writes "Lightly stepped a yellow star to its lofty place, Loosed the Moon her silver hat From her lustral face."

To read the details into this poem that you have attempted to force on it destroys its powerful imagery. When I look at this section of Job's poem I see (vs. 12) a picture of the light that Only God is able to command;(vs. 13) a light that uncovers the blanket of darkness in the morning and exposes the hiding place of the wicked from which they flee. (vs. 14) A light that reveals the features of the earth that were hidden by the dark. (Vs. 15) When the light comes the wicked hide, their violence ceases when the light is present.

"Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken. (Job 38:12-15 NIV)


To give another example from the Hebrew poetry of the bible, let's look at the imagery of Eccl 12.

Remember your Creator in the days of your youth,
before the days of trouble come and the years approach when you will say, "I find no pleasure in them"--
before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars grow dark,
and the clouds return after the rain;
when the keepers of the house tremble, and the strong men stoop,
when the grinders cease because they are few, and those looking through the windows grow dim;
when the doors to the street are closed and the sound of grinding fades;
when people rise up at the sound of birds, but all their songs grow faint; (Ecc 12:1-4 NIV)

To read this literally would be to miss the artful imagery of aging i.e. a man who is going blind, whose hands shake, and whose back is stooped. A man who is loosing his teeth and his hearing. Hebrew poetry is rich in imagery and it is destroyed, just like English poetry is destroyed, by such a literal reading.

I understand your point.

Honestly I can't imagine reading this beautiful Hebrew poetry as literally as you have. And I can only imagine the cosmology you would infer from Emily Dickinson's work when she writes "Lightly stepped a yellow star to its lofty place, Loosed the Moon her silver hat From her lustral face."

To read the details into this poem that you have attempted to force on it destroys its powerful imagery. When I look at this section of the Genesis poem I see (vs. 3) a picture of the light that Only God is able to command;(vs. 4) a light that is good. (vs. 5) A light that gives us daytime.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

And God saw that the light was good.

And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.

And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”

And God made[b] the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse.

And it was so. And God called the expanse Heaven.

And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.”

And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth,and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas.

And God saw that it was good.

To read this literally would be to miss the artful imagery of our earth, of creation. i.e. a the contrast between the water and the land, the paired opposites of creation, majesty of the seas, and the goodness of it all. Hebrew poetry is rich in imagery and it is destroyed, just like English poetry is destroyed, by such a literal reading.

It's obvious that Genesis and Job 38 hold a lot in common.

  • They both are rich in imagery
  • They both show the majesty and glory of God
  • They both show the majesty and glory of God's creation
  • They both contain poetic elements
  • They both lose impact and meaning when diminished to a literal reading
  • They both are not literally true (the earth is not flat, nor are there "waters above", etc.)
  • They both show that God talks to people in a way that matches their current understanding of the world
  • They both don't imply that God really thinks the world is as the poetry literally reads
  • They both communicate to the ancient reader because they fit her/his world,
  • They both communicate to the modern reader who knows not to read them literally
  • They both contain plenty of elements, recognized by scholars, to show that they are poety
Thanks, benalchi, for helping lead us to this clear illustration.

Papias

************************************************

Cal wrote:

Also, looking back when I was a child first reading the book of Genesis, none of these ancient cosmologies came to my mind. I never saw solid domism in any portion of scripture.

Of course not, because you had already learned the scientific view. You simply read the scientific view into the scripture, and thought that you were reading the scripture as an ancient person would have read it. (others have pointed this out).

The dome/flat earth idea is of course how a person in the ancient world would have read it. Of course the earth is flat (unsure? Just go outside to a big field and take a look. Obviously, it's flat). Of course the sky has water above it. (unsure? Just go outside on a clear day and take a look. See the blue color? Of course, that's water, because water is blue, and nothing else looks like that in nature). Of course the firmament is hard - how else could it keep all that water from falling on us? Of course the firmament is clear - how else could we see all that water up there? Of course the firmament is domed - (unsure? Just go outside and take a look. You can see the sky arched above us and coming down to meet the earth at the horizon). Of course the sun and moon are inside the firmament as described in Genesis. (unsure? Just go outside and take a look. You can see the sun, moon, and stars, undistorted by the water behind them.).

Cal, now, with this dome/flat earth view in mind, go back and slowly read Gen 1 while keeping that view in mind. Wow!


Nor do i think anyone else would in this age merely reading the text.

Of course they won't, because they've also already been taught the scientific view. Heck, my kids, at age 3, are already surrounded by movies, pictures, models, and so on that show it. Just watch the beginning of the kids movie "Wall-E", or dozens of others.

Papias
 
Upvote 0

benelchi

INACTIVE
Aug 3, 2011
693
140
✟25,298.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
benalchi wrote:


I understand your point.

Honestly I can't imagine reading this beautiful Hebrew poetry as literally as you have. And I can only imagine the cosmology you would infer from Emily Dickinson's work when she writes "Lightly stepped a yellow star to its lofty place, Loosed the Moon her silver hat From her lustral face."

To read the details into this poem that you have attempted to force on it destroys its powerful imagery. When I look at this section of the Genesis poem I see (vs. 3) a picture of the light that Only God is able to command;(vs. 4) a light that is good. (vs. 5) A light that gives us daytime.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

And God saw that the light was good.

And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.

And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”

And God made[b] the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse.

And it was so. And God called the expanse Heaven.

And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.”

And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth,and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas.

And God saw that it was good.

To read this literally would be to miss the artful imagery of our earth, of creation. i.e. a the contrast between the water and the land, the paired opposites of creation, majesty of the seas, and the goodness of it all. Hebrew poetry is rich in imagery and it is destroyed, just like English poetry is destroyed, by such a literal reading.

It's obvious that Genesis and Job 38 hold a lot in common.

  • They both are rich in imagery
  • They both show the majesty and glory of God
  • They both show the majesty and glory of God's creation
  • They both contain poetic elements
  • They both lose impact and meaning when diminished to a literal reading
  • They both are not literally true (the earth is not flat, nor are there "waters above", etc.)
  • They both show that God talks to people in a way that matches their current understanding of the world
  • They both don't imply that God really thinks the world is as the poetry literally reads
  • They both communicate to the ancient reader because they fit her/his world,
  • They both communicate to the modern reader who knows not to read them literally
  • They both contain plenty of elements, recognized by scholars, to show that they are poety
Thanks, benalchi, for helping lead us to this clear illustration.

Papias

************************************************

Cal wrote:



Of course not, because you had already learned the scientific view. You simply read the scientific view into the scripture, and thought that you were reading the scripture as an ancient person would have read it. (others have pointed this out).

The dome/flat earth idea is of course how a person in the ancient world would have read it. Of course the earth is flat (unsure? Just go outside to a big field and take a look. Obviously, it's flat). Of course the sky has water above it. (unsure? Just go outside on a clear day and take a look. See the blue color? Of course, that's water, because water is blue, and nothing else looks like that in nature). Of course the firmament is hard - how else could it keep all that water from falling on us? Of course the firmament is clear - how else could we see all that water up there? Of course the firmament is domed - (unsure? Just go outside and take a look. You can see the sky arched above us and coming down to meet the earth at the horizon). Of course the sun and moon are inside the firmament as described in Genesis. (unsure? Just go outside and take a look. You can see the sun, moon, and stars, undistorted by the water behind them.).

Cal, now, with this dome/flat earth view in mind, go back and slowly read Gen 1 while keeping that view in mind. Wow!




Of course they won't, because they've also already been taught the scientific view. Heck, my kids, at age 3, are already surrounded by movies, pictures, models, and so on that show it. Just watch the beginning of the kids movie "Wall-E", or dozens of others.

Papias

So here you go with the same absurd claim that Genesis is poetry. Please provide a reference to any internationally recognized Hebrew scholar that supports this claim whether they are Christian or not. For a secular world class scholar and recognized expert in Hebrew poetry you can begin with Robert Alter at UC Berkeley, in the seminars that I have attended he has clearly disagreed with your perspective. He is well published so it won't be difficult to find his perspective on the internet somewhere and it would be impossible to accuse him of supporting a conservative Christian bias. For a Christian perspective you could begin with bruce waltke. He is also a recognized expert in biblical Hebrew and though his conclusions are very diferent from Alter's he would agree that Genesis 1 is not Hebrew poetry.


Edited to add:

On the 5th page of his book, The Art of Biblical Poetry, Robert Alter states that the first line of poetry in the Bible is Genesis 2:23 :
Then the man said,
”This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
because she was taken out of Man.”
What’s the big deal you may ask?


Note: some scholars even make an argument for vs. 1:27 being almost poetic. In Alter's book and his lectures he alludes to half a dozen other short poetic phrases mixed into the narrative text of Genesis! Scholars argue over whether these short phrases are truly poetic, whether the reflect an earlier text, etc.. but NO SCHOLAR suggests that the text of Genesis 1 or the rest of Genesis is poetic!


When I had a chance to look for Alter's quote, I realized that Rob Bell has been suggesting that Genesis 1 is "poetry," but this is just one more example of Bell placing his unsubstantiated opinions over the work of credible Hebrew scholars. IS THIS WHERE YOU CAME UP WITH THIS CRAZY IDEA????????
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

benelchi

INACTIVE
Aug 3, 2011
693
140
✟25,298.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The post-modernist does not reject the idea of universal concepts which refer to universal human experiences. It is evident, for example, that we all have experiences like love, fear, hunger, pain, joy, etc. and all languages express these concepts in some way--so they are translatable and transferable from one context to another.

Actually, they really do reject these concepts as universal. I would suggest reading Derrida, Fish, Rorty, etc...

What the post-modernist rejects is imposing any one set of cultural assumptions as universal when it is not. In particular, post-modernism rejects the modernist assumption that modernism expresses universal truth. It identifies the modernist impulse as one culture-bound perspective (that of the autonomous, middle-class, white European male) among many, but which arrogates to itself the idea that it is the universal truth when it is not. It is actually a fairly narrow vision of truth, for it neglects the perspectives of many other groups of people, suppressing or denying or devaluing them.
They actually reject the idea that we can know with any degree of certainty that any idea is common between cultures. Any claim of a common understanding is rejected; even the idea that any author has the ability to express anything outside of his own cultural understanding is rejected. Many reject the idea that authorial intention even exists.

And again, the more and more I hear, the more postmodern this argument sounds.
 
Upvote 0

Calminian

Senior Veteran
Feb 14, 2005
6,789
1,044
Low Dessert
✟49,695.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No one being raised in a home with a television would--nor with books in the house that picture today's consensus on the organization of galaxies and solar systems.

But if one is being raised in a culture where the common understanding of 'firmament' (or its Hebrew equivalents) is that of a solid mass, it would be just as obvious that this is its meaning.

I thought that was the point I just made. IOW, the bible is filled with equivocal language in regard to the structure of the universe. You could believe the moon was made of cheese, and the Bible wouldn't contradict it.

We tend to give words the meaning we normally associate with them.
And this is what sometimes leads to not understanding the scriptural text, because the meanings we associate with words are not always what the writer meant.

That is why we have to look at what the writer meant.

Proving my point so far. This is why I called out the OP.

There is no one natural reading. What is natural to an eight-year-old today is wildly out-of-synch with what would be natural to an eight-year-old 2500 years ago.

What we call "natural" is very much culturally conditioned and so varies from culture to culture.

In regard to the structure of the universe, yes, many conclusions can be drawn so long as they don't contradict the text.

But you are assuming the writers meant to convey a solid domed sky. Yet, if they were why such equivocal language? That's was JP Holding's point responding to Paul Seely. If they believe the universe for certain had a solid sky, they could have easily said so.

Interestingly, when it came to the history of the universe (as opposed to the structure), the language is much more clear. In fact Genesis was in conflict with long age mythologies about earth's history. So much for the cultural reader theory. Yet, it's clear as can be that the heavens and earth were created miraculously a relatively short time ago, followed by a global flood soon after.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
But you are assuming the writers meant to convey a solid domed sky. Yet, if they were why such equivocal language?


I expect they didn't think their language was equivocal. They knew what they intended. They knew what people understood by 'raqia' and 'shamayim' within their cultural context.



If they believe the universe for certain had a solid sky, they could have easily said so.


I expect that is precisely what they thought they were saying, unequivocally.



Interestingly, when it came to the history of the universe (as opposed to the structure), the language is much more clear. In fact Genesis was in conflict with long age mythologies about earth's history. So much for the cultural reader theory. Yet, it's clear as can be that the heavens and earth were created miraculously a relatively short time ago, followed by a global flood soon after.

You really do use a double standard, don't you?
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Actually, they really do reject these concepts as universal. I would suggest reading Derrida, Fish, Rorty, etc...

I think we are speaking of slightly different things here. I said "experiences". You are saying "concepts".

Yes, I expect a postmodernist would hold that concepts of what love, fear, sorrow, etc. are do differ from culture to culture. Though the experiences are certainly universal, the terms used in one culture never agree precisely with those used in a different culture. So, the concepts referring to the experiences are not universal.

They actually reject the idea that we can know with any degree of certainty that any idea is common between cultures. Any claim of a common understanding is rejected; even the idea that any author has the ability to express anything outside of his own cultural understanding is rejected. Many reject the idea that authorial intention even exists.

Yes, that sounds accurate. Insofar as an author's intentions encapsulate the particularities of his or her culture which may not be consciously acknowledged, I can see why a question mark can be set against authorial intention.

And again, the more and more I hear, the more postmodern this argument sounds.

So?

I find postmodernism fascinating, despite some of its obvious weaknesses. I've seen some good Christian expressions of postmodernism too.
At its best, I find it a salutary lesson in cross-cultural humility.
 
Upvote 0

Papias

Listening to TW4
Dec 22, 2005
3,967
988
59
✟64,806.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Benalchi wrote:
So here you go with the same absurd claim that Genesis is poetry.

........ he has clearly disagreed with your perspective.

I apologize for being unclear - you may have misunderstood what "my perspective" is.

As many of us know, the books in the Bibles (especially Genesis) are not monolithic books like many modern books we read today. They often contain many levels of meaning and including interweavings of multiple genres. Modern books are often just one literary style. So many of the books in many of the Bibles contain a mix of poetic elements mixed in with any number of other kinds of text. This means that while books today are often "100% pure poetry" vs. other books that are have "0% poetic nature", many books of the Bibles are somewhere in between, and Genesis is a great example.

I think we both agree that Genesis has significant poetic makeup (especially when looked at by chapter), while not being as purely poetry as some other sections of the Bibles.

Please provide a reference to any internationally recognized Hebrew scholar that supports this claim whether they are Christian or not.

As you have seen and supplied yourself, Robert Alter points out some of the poetic elements in Genesis, including saying that the first line of poetry in the Bible is in Genesis (2).

Ronald Hendel points out poetic elements in Gen 1, as have others who pointed out that Gen 1: 4-6 parallels 1: 1-3, and that the repetitive nature of the verses (shown in my previous post) is itself an element of poetry.

For a Christian perspective you could begin with bruce waltke. He is also a recognized expert in biblical Hebrew and though his conclusions are very diferent from Alter's he would agree that Genesis 1 is not Hebrew poetry.

Bruce Waltke, in his book "Genesis", gives his view of whether Genesis chaps 1, 2 and 3 are myth, poetry, science or history by saying they are "all of the above". So yes, Bruce Waltke does say it is poetry, while also being narrative, and so on.

This was recognized long before these Protestant scholars. The poetic nature of Genesis is often taught in Catholic institutions, and the Catholics G. d. Eichthal, Bishop Clifford, and others pointed out poetic elements in Genesis over a century ago. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Hebrew Poetry of the Old Testament

I'm sure, benelchi, that there are parts of the various Bibles that have more poetic elements in a higher concentration than in the early part of Genesis (and certainly that the later parts, which appear to have fewer poetic elements). I think our disagreement may stem from the idea that scripture has to be pure poetry or not poetry at all, when in fact there are plenty of shades of gray and interwoven styles in scripture.


Papias
 
  • Like
Reactions: Assyrian
Upvote 0

benelchi

INACTIVE
Aug 3, 2011
693
140
✟25,298.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Benalchi wrote:



As many of us know, the books in the Bibles (especially Genesis) are not monolithic books like many modern books we read today. They often contain many levels of meaning and including interweavings of multiple genres. Modern books are often just one literary style. So many of the books in many of the Bibles contain a mix of poetic elements mixed in with any number of other kinds of text. This means that while books today are often "100% pure poetry" vs. other books that are have "0% poetic nature", many books of the Bibles are somewhere in between,

Actually, in this respect, the books of the bible really are like the the books we read today. They are no more mixed than most books today are mixed. The poetic and prophetic books are typically poetry, the rest of the books are typically narrative.


and Genesis is a great example.
Actually, the book of Genesis is almost entirely narrative with a few lines of poetry sprinkled very occasionally within the 50 chapters of narrative text.

I think we both agree that Genesis has significant poetic makeup (especially when looked at by chapter), while not being as purely poetry as some other sections of the Bibles.
I don't think we agree on this point. Again, scholars that debate the poetry in Genesis center their debate on only a handful of single poetic lines contained within 50 chapters of narrative.


As you have seen and supplied yourself, Robert Alter points out some of the poetic elements in Genesis, including saying that the first line of poetry in the Bible is in Genesis (2).
I supplied this example because it showed that Alter doesn't believe the text of Genesis is poetic; again we are talking about a few lines of debated poetic language contained in a narrative that is 50 chapters long.

Ronald Hendel points out poetic elements in Gen 1, as have others who pointed out that Gen 1: 4-6 parallels 1: 1-3, and that the repetitive nature of the verses (shown in my previous post) is itself an element of poetry.
The parallelism you are speaking of is in regards to the days of Genesis i.e. days 1-3 being parallel to the days 4-6; while the significance of the parallelism is debated, no scholar looks at this aspect of parallelism as an indication of poetry. The theory of Creation that is based on the parallel structure of the account in Genesis is called the "Framework" theory and it is the theory I personally hold. It has nothing to do with poetry.




Bruce Waltke, in his book "Genesis", gives his view of whether Genesis chaps 1, 2 and 3 are myth, poetry, science or history by saying they are "all of the above". So yes, Bruce Waltke does say it is poetry, while also being narrative, and so on.
I would like to see the exact quote in context. This sounds like something Waltke would say about the entire bible but not about Genesis 1-3. Here is a quote from Waltke (entirely in his words) dealing with the specifics of Genesis 1.

"To construct a proper model of cosmogony special attention must be given to Genesis 1. The reason is that this text is written in precise prose, wheras other biblical passages bearing on cosmogony are poetic, imaginative, evocative, and not didactic."
The Creation account in Genesis 1:1-3, Bruce K. Waltke

This was recognized long before these Protestant scholars. The poetic nature of Genesis is often taught in Catholic institutions, and the Catholics G. d. Eichthal, Bishop Clifford, and others pointed out poetic elements in Genesis over a century ago. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Hebrew Poetry of the Old Testament
I looked at this link, and didn't see anything about Genesis 1 being poetic.

I'm sure, benelchi, that there are parts of the various Bibles that have more poetic elements in a higher concentration than in the early part of Genesis (and certainly that the later parts, which appear to have fewer poetic elements). I think our disagreement may stem from the idea that scripture has to be pure poetry or not poetry at all, when in fact there are plenty of shades of gray and interwoven styles in scripture.
I think our disagreement stems from the fact that I read out of the OT in Hebrew almost every day and have a great deal of familiarity with the Hebrew Scriptures.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Actually, in this respect, the books of the bible really are like the the books we read today. They are no more mixed than most books today are mixed. The poetic and prophetic books are typically poetry, the rest of the books are typically narrative.


Actually, the book of Genesis is almost entirely narrative with a few lines of poetry sprinkled very occasionally within the 50 chapters of narrative text.

Such oppositions imply that poetry and narrative are mutually exclusive literary categories. They are not. A great deal of poetry is narrative (i.e. it recounts an event or tells a story) and a great deal of narrative is presented in poetry or poetic prose.

The fact that a text presents a narrative doesn't mean it is not poetry as well. And I don't just mean it contains poetry or poetic elements as insertions into the narrative. I mean the poetry presents the narrative. They cannot be separated.

To what extent this applies to Genesis 1 is, of course, debatable. But simply saying it is narrative does not counter the possibility that it is also poetry. For these are not exclusive categories in literature.
 
Upvote 0

benelchi

INACTIVE
Aug 3, 2011
693
140
✟25,298.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Such oppositions imply that poetry and narrative are mutually exclusive literary categories. They are not. A great deal of poetry is narrative (i.e. it recounts an event or tells a story) and a great deal of narrative is presented in poetry or poetic prose.

The fact that a text presents a narrative doesn't mean it is not poetry as well. And I don't just mean it contains poetry or poetic elements as insertions into the narrative. I mean the poetry presents the narrative. They cannot be separated.

Your statements about narrative being both prose and poetry is only half true. Yes, there are wonderful examples of poetic narratives in literature; including the literature of the bible. Psalms 136 is good example of a poetic narrative (or a narrative conveyed through poetry); however, no one would refer to Psalms 136 as simply a “narrative text” because this text is characterized by its poetic qualities. Typically when someone speaks of an unqualified “narrative text” they are speaking about a narrative conveyed through prose (not poetry). In other words, “narrative” is typically used to define a particular subcategory of prose; when the word “narrative” is not being used this way the author is obligated to give us further explanation.

There is considerable debate about the legitimacy of “poetic prose” and how to classify it i.e. does it belong in either of these categories or its own category? More importantly to this discussion, it is relatively new phenomenon and doesn’t apply to biblical Hebrew.





To what extent this applies to Genesis 1 is, of course, debatable. But simply saying it is narrative does not counter the possibility that it is also poetry. For these are not exclusive categories in literature.
To be more specific, Genesis 1 is narrative expressed through prose (i.e. the normal understanding of a "narrative text") and unless you can find an internationally recognized Hebrew scholar that claims this passage is "poetic" then I really don't think you can make the claim that this is debatable.
 
Upvote 0