I read it literally now

[Keachian]

Hi Philis,
due to the function of overseeing the passing of time given to the luminary creature kings on day 4 it seems to me that it is more likely that day 1 is about the setting up of time, I think this is further supported by God calling the light day and the darkness night, what are your thoughts?

 

[samaus12345]

He mentions it in here and will destroy anyones faith in deep time/evolution

Creation Seminar 1 - Kent Hovind - Age of the Earth (FULL) - YouTube

Is the raqiya‘ (‘firmament&rsquo a solid dome?

http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j10_2/j10_2_211-213.pdf

White hole cosmology - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science

God's mighty expanse

 

[Philis]

Hi Philis,
due to the function of overseeing the passing of time given to the luminary creature kings on day 4 it seems to me that it is more likely that day 1 is about the setting up of time, I think this is further supported by God calling the light day and the darkness night, what are your thoughts?

That seems reasonable, I hadn't thought of that meaning. I suppose it makes sense as an added element where they take away more from what multiple gods did in the surrounding cultures and attribute it to the one true God.

That seems to be a bit better an explanation for the kingdom/kings framework.

 

[Philis]

2.5 hour video, sorry but no thanks.

Is the raqiya‘ (‘firmament&rsquo a solid dome?

I will read this link though. (I picked it because it was the first one from your list.)

Since it's so long I'll have to read it tonight.

 

[ptomwebster]

Does somebody here think that He made the earth in vain? Why did you post this verse?

Look at the Hebrew word "vain," here and the Hebrew words "was without form." The word "vain" and "form" is tôhû . God did not create the world tôhû, it became (not was) tôhû.

You can believe anything you want about creation but you will not understand the end if you don't understand the beginning.

 

[Keachian]

That seems reasonable, I hadn't thought of that meaning. I suppose it makes sense as an added element where they take away more from what multiple gods did in the surrounding cultures and attribute it to the one true God.

That seems to be a bit better an explanation for the kingdom/kings framework.

I'm just wondering where you've been researching how you understand the ANE perspective on Gen 1:1-2:3

 

[Calminian]

....Then God makes a solid dome above the earth to keep out the waters above. There are waters above the dome, and waters below the dome.


6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Ah the famous (infamous) solid dome argument. Wish I had a nickel for every time I heard this one.

Many scholars have tried to make the argument that rayqia in the hebrew means solid dome, and therefore a literal reading of Genesis leads to solid dome cosmology and therefore must be avoided.

Only one problem. Genesis defines the term rayqia in the 8th verse of Genesis 1.

"And God called the firmament Heaven."​

The term rayqia is not a big mystery at all. It's merely what God named the heavens—the same heavens in which the birds fly in, and clouds move through. The same heavens in which the angels dwell. The same heavens in which God dwells. It's very clear from visual inferences from birds and clouds that heaven is not a solid dome. Theologically it most certainly can't be solid.

This is probably why Paul Seely and others try to redefine rayqia as a barrier between heaven and earth. Again, big problem. The Bible never says rayqia separates heaven and earth. It literally says that the rayqia (the firmament) is heaven. In fact, hebrew parallelism backs up this as well using the terms rayqia and shamayim interchangeably (forgive the transliterations).

In ancient times, some astronomers believed there was a solid dome in the sky. In fact at one time it was probably mainstream thinking. And just like today, theologians tried to integrate their theology with the science of their time. But the Bible itself never did this. It never advocates solid dome cosmology. Therefore no modern novice readers of Genesis come up with this one their own. This is actually pretty advance anti-creation stuff.

 

[Calminian]

Nowhere in the creation account does it say the earth was covered in thick clouds. You are adding that so that it fits your current cosmology while ignoring the cosmology it was written with. That's not reading it literally, that's concordism. You're changing the meaning to fit your assumptions.....

Hmmm. Denise Lamoureux? I nailed it didn't I?

 

[Calminian]

...
What you need to do is read it literally. According to Strong's Concordance the firmament is a solid dome. .....

And can you please cite your source for Srong's. I just looked it up and it says: raqia: an extended surface, expanse. And most bible translations translate the word, expanse.

Where did you find the solid dome definition? Just curious.

 

[miamited]

hi Philis,

I'm just adding in some commentary to another's post:

Isa 45:18 say: For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Does somebody here think that He made the earth in vain? Why did you post this verse?

I can't tell you why ptom posted the Scripture or how he gets from point A to point B in his triangulation with this verse and verse 28, he'll have to answer that.

However, I can tell you that it is this very verse that caused me to rethink what I had been told and taught to believe in school about billions of years of some evolutionary universe that got us from nothing to here. I think that God is speaking clearly here that He created the earth to be inhabited. If you remember my explanation of God's purpose in creating this realm, well, this is where you find that purpose.

God didn't create this realm of creation - the physical universe in which we live - over millions or billions of years. He had a fully thought out purpose for all that He created in this realm. This realm was created to support the life of flesh. Both of men and animals. This verse says so. If we can really comprehend the power, the wisdom and the glory of God, then we can surely see that He is a Creator God who can create vast universes with just the command of His words.

He isn't a God who needs to create some amorphous ball of gases that will become this star and then that star over there and then some other cluster of stars somewhere else that take billions or years to come together and congeal to be what we see today. No! Not at all! He is a God of such great and perfect wisdom and knowledge and power and glory that all He need do is merely think the design of the whole of this universe and within moments it is! That's the power and glory and majesty of the God who created all things both seen and unseen and that same powerful, mighty, majestic and holy God loves me. He loves you. How humbling is that thought? How so loved we have to feel that the God who merely speaks all things into existence loves you. He knows you! He has provided all that you need to live. He thought in the moments of the creation event to put an atmosphere on this one singular planet among the billions and billions of heavenly bodies that would contain oxygen so that every 3 seconds you could gulp in some air and live!!

He created the necessary elements and earth in which food would grow for both plants and animals that we could eat and live!! That's what God has made and planned for you! He loves you more than anything else that He has made in this realm. There is nothing; no bird, no wild beast, no creature of the sea, no beautiful flowering plant that God loves and created all of this for, but you!! YOU!! That's what God has done. How awesome is that? And what He asks is that you recognize and acknowledge that and bow down in humble submission to His plan for your life so that you may continue to draw breath and eat food and live with Him forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever. That, Philis, is the God who in mere moments created this entire realm of existence so that He could one day send forth His angels and harvest a good crop from the earth.

Jesus tells us that that is what the end will be like. That God will send forth His angels and He will have them go to and fro across the earth harvesting among both the living and dead a crop of good fruit that He will then take into His perfect and plentiful storehouse to live with Him forever. And in that day, that God, will stand before His throne; the place from which He spoke all that is in this realm into existence and before those who have been taken into His loving storehouse He will declare, "Now the dwelling of God is with men and He will be their God and they will be His people."

No, certainly I don't say that God's work in creating was in vain, but I assure you that the 'plan' is not finished yet.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Keachian]

Hi Ted,
while you weren't addressing me I do have some questions about some of the things you have said.

However, I can tell you that it is this very verse that caused me to rethink what I had been told and taught to believe in school about billions of years of some evolutionary universe that got us from nothing to here. I think that God is speaking clearly here that He created the earth to be inhabited. If you remember my explanation of God's purpose in creating this realm, well, this is where you find that purpose.

So you dismiss TE because of the apparent lack of purpose or teleology in evolution? This seems to miss that the Bible says that without God creation does appear to have no purpose (cf. Ecclesiastes)

God didn't create this realm of creation - the physical universe in which we live - over millions or billions of years. He had a fully thought out purpose for all that He created in this realm. This realm was created to support the life of flesh. Both of men and animals. This verse says so. If we can really comprehend the power, the wisdom and the glory of God, then we can surely see that He is a Creator God who can create vast universes with just the command of His words.

I'm not really sure why God creating over millions or billions of years is contradictory to God having purpose, could you further elaborate?

He isn't a God who needs to create some amorphous ball of gases that will become this star and then that star over there and then some other cluster of stars somewhere else that take billions or years to come together and congeal to be what we see today. No! Not at all! He is a God of such great and perfect wisdom and knowledge and power and glory that all He need do is merely think the design of the whole of this universe and within moments it is! That's the power and glory and majesty of the God who created all things both seen and unseen and that same powerful, mighty, majestic and holy God loves me. He loves you. How humbling is that thought? How so loved we have to feel that the God who merely speaks all things into existence loves you. He knows you! He has provided all that you need to live. He thought in the moments of the creation event to put an atmosphere on this one singular planet among the billions and billions of heavenly bodies that would contain oxygen so that every 3 seconds you could gulp in some air and live!!

God needn't do anything at all but he did, God is all powerful, I don't think that God taking time to do something means he is any less powerful, instead it speaks to his patience, even in my walk with God one of the things I get reminded of on a constant basis is his patience.

 

[gluadys]

gluadys

Isa 45:18 say: For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

What does that have to do with the Hebrew of Gen. 1:28?

 

[gluadys]

Hmmm. Denise Lamoureux? I nailed it didn't I?

It's Denis. He's male. At least, last I heard he was.

 

[ptomwebster]

What does that have to do with the Hebrew of Gen. 1:28?

READ my post #25.

 

[Calminian]

It's Denis. He's male. At least, last I heard he was.

It's this guy right here.
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2008/PSCF3-08Lamoureux.pdf

She's pretty much regurgitating his arguments to a T. The whole argument rests on his definition of raqia, which he bases on etymology derived numerous generations after Gen. 1 was written. But it's interesting, he never addresses Genesis 1:8.

I've never understood why "scholars" look to very obscure passages where the word is found instead of just looking how the word is explicitly defined in Genesis where it first appears. It's one of those ideas or concepts that is so dumb it takes an intellectual to believe it. But I digress.

 

[gluadys]

hi Philis,

I'm just adding in some commentary to another's post:

Isa 45:18 say: For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

However, I can tell you that it is this very verse that caused me to rethink what I had been told and taught to believe in school about billions of years of some evolutionary universe that got us from nothing to here. I think that God is speaking clearly here that He created the earth to be inhabited. If you remember my explanation of God's purpose in creating this realm, well, this is where you find that purpose.

God didn't create this realm of creation - the physical universe in which we live - over millions or billions of years. He had a fully thought out purpose for all that He created in this realm. This realm was created to support the life of flesh. Both of men and animals. This verse says so. If we can really comprehend the power, the wisdom and the glory of God, then we can surely see that He is a Creator God who can create vast universes with just the command of His words.

Again, Ted, I just don't see the correlation here that makes a short time span necessary. You include animals among the living creatures that inhabit the earth. I expect then you also include all living creatures that are neither human nor animal as well: plants, fungi, protists, bacteria. They all inhabit the earth.

And they began inhabiting the earth almost as soon as livable conditions began to exist. The earth has been inhabited by some form of life for nearly 4 billion years.

So how does God's purpose of creating a world to be inhabited conflict with an ancient earth?

He isn't a God who needs to create some amorphous ball of gases that will become this star and then that star over there and then some other cluster of stars somewhere else that take billions or years to come together and congeal to be what we see today.

Just because he didn't need to take time is no evidence that he didn't. To me, God taking the time to generate the stars that needed time to generate the elements essential to the formation of living matter emphasizes concern and loving care. Isn't that just as important as power?

It tells me that God doesn't just make his creation and stand back, but that God lovingly nurtures his creation into becoming. To me that fits with God being our Heavenly Father. It's very parental.

No, certainly I don't say that God's work in creating was in vain, but I assure you that the 'plan' is not finished yet.

So, why do you object to him taking as much time in the beginning as in the finishing?

 

[Keachian]

READ my post #25.

So why does the Isaiah verse refer to Gen1:1-2 and not Gen2:1 surely when it says that God didn't create the world in vain it's talking about how it all ends up, not how it started...

 

[gluadys]

READ my post #25.

And what does that post have to do with Gen. 1:28?


I see the link to Gen. 1:2, but my first post to you was in reference to the verb
which the KJV editors translated as "replenish" in Gen. 1:28.

How do either of your responses to me relate to that?

 

[Calminian]

Again, Ted, I just don't see the correlation here that makes a short time span necessary. You include animals among the living creatures that inhabit the earth. I expect then you also include all living creatures that are neither human nor animal as well: plants, fungi, protists, bacteria. They all inhabit the earth.

And they began inhabiting the earth almost as soon as livable conditions began to exist. The earth has been inhabited by some form of life for nearly 4 billion years.

So how does God's purpose of creating a world to be inhabited conflict with an ancient earth?










Just because he didn't need to take time is no evidence that he didn't. To me, God taking the time to generate the stars that needed time to generate the elements essential to the formation of living matter emphasizes concern and loving care. Isn't that just as important as power?

It tells me that God doesn't just make his creation and stand back, but that God lovingly nurtures his creation into becoming. To me that fits with God being our Heavenly Father. It's very parental.






So, why do you object to him taking as much time in the beginning as in the finishing?

No, I think Ted is onto something here. The idea of 13 billion years to allow something to develop does not fit what's revealed about Christ the creator in the N.T. In His miracles He created things instantly—wine, fish, bread, etc. He healed instantly, and thus gave us a picture of the methods of the Creator.

The death and struggle prior to sin, doesn't fit biblically, theologically or even with common sense. TE doesn't fit with biblical theology on any level. It's forced. It's awkward.

 

[Philis]

And can you please cite your source for Srong's. I just looked it up and it says: raqia: an extended surface, expanse. And most bible translations translate the word, expanse.

Where did you find the solid dome definition? Just curious.

Strong's H7549 is:

1) extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament
a) expanse (flat as base, support)
b) firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
1) considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting 'waters' above

Strong's is pretty clear on this issue.

Many scholars have tried to make the argument that rayqia in the hebrew means solid dome, and therefore a literal reading of Genesis leads to solid dome cosmology and therefore must be avoided.

I don't know of any scholars who say we should avoid a literal reading. If anything we should strive to understand it better because by comparing it in it's ancient context and cosmology to the surrounding beliefs of the ANE world we will gain a much deeper understanding of the message. Does that approach sound bad to you?

You've raised some other good points which I will have to get back to you on.