I Love Jesus, but Hate His Church.

[Thee David III]

The term is used to mean a local congregation, e.g., the church os Galatia, or the invisible Church, which includes all believers.

Are you talking about the word Ekklesia? Because that is what I am saying, is from what I seen I don't think it only means a building. Which is why I keep saying church could be accurate both ways, because if the assembly is in a building it would be accurate still to say in modern terms that is the church in the modern sense, sense we all understand the people are going to gather there ahead of time.

If the church building as we call it was empty and nobody ever enters it, I don't think it would be considered a church since nobody ever assembles in it, so that why I am taking the stance based on what I've seen that if we were to be literal to me it looks like it is saying the church is more of the actual "Followers of Christ assembled" which is why I say even if all buildings got destroyed the church would still exist, because we as Christians make up the church, we are the assembly, without us there is nobody to worship God.

Do you not agree with my thinking? Thats what I think it is saying but I would rather have someone that actually knows Greek talk about it, I don't claim to be an expert, just using google to understand the word based on others who know Greek.

I'm not trying to nit pick over it, just trying to see if we all agree on what it means or can figure it out, because thats what I think is being said based on what I've seen and obviously a disagreement over that isn't sending anyone to hell lolol.

I just want to know if this is accurate and from what I've seen on google from most links and articles is that it seems to be accurate to say the church is the assembly itself.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Do you not agree with my thinking?

Yes. I agree that the church is not a building. My point was that it both local congregations, and the whole of the "body of Christ", can be referred to as "church".

 

[NeedyFollower]

Are you talking about the word Ekklesia? Because that is what I am saying, is from what I seen I don't think it only means a building. Which is why I keep saying church could be accurate both ways, because if the assembly is in a building it would be accurate still to say in modern terms that is the church in the modern sense, sense we all understand the people are going to gather there ahead of time.

If the church building as we call it was empty and nobody ever enters it, I don't think it would be considered a church since nobody ever assembles in it, so that why I am taking the stance based on what I've seen that if we were to be literal to me it looks like it is saying the church is more of the actual "Followers of Christ assembled" which is why I say even if all buildings got destroyed the church would still exist, because we as Christians make up the church, we are the assembly, without us there is nobody to worship God.

Do you not agree with my thinking? Thats what I think it is saying but I would rather have someone that actually knows Greek talk about it, I don't claim to be an expert, just using google to understand the word based on others who know Greek.

I'm not trying to nit pick over it, just trying to see if we all agree on what it means or can figure it out, because thats what I think is being said based on what I've seen and obviously a disagreement over that isn't sending anyone to hell lolol.

I just want to know if this is accurate and from what I've seen on google from most links and articles is that it seems to be accurate to say the church is the assembly itself.

I am not Quaker but George Fox ( founder of that group of seekers / followers ) called the "church buildings " steeplehouses and was not overly in favor of that tradition. This is only an opinion obviously but I believe that when God had the temple in Jerusalem destroyed in 70 AD it was for manifold purposes. One was so that prophecy was fulfilled ( Jesus' ..I tell you there will not be one stone left standing , etc. ) Two was that people could start to realize that God does not dwell in a building made with hands . We being the temple . Christ alluded to this when He said , destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again. I believe it is in our old nature to start to "cherish " worship , adore and love many thing with which "we build " ..things we have facilitated ..things we have built verses things which God has wrought . It is pretty common understanding among Christians the reason God always made reference to using uncut stones for an alter ...we tend to profane things .
I think the moment that believers leave a "church building" it is no more a church than a McDonalds is a restaurant without food. It is just an often very expensive empty building .

 

[dad]

ANY obedience, no matter how small, shows love for the Lord. It's scriptural: 1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome

It all may be well and good, but not all required. Loving others is required. Forgiveness, belief..etc. Traditions of man...no.

 

[Open Heart]

Loving others is required.

"If you love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15

 

[dad]

"If you love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15

OK, I'll try. His command is to love and preach the gospel and believe. Not grievous or some heavy yoke, these things.

 

[SolomonVII]

OK, I'll try. His command is to love and preach the gospel and believe. Not grievous or some heavy yoke, these things.

I really like this try.
For example, loving your wife or kids should be about the easiest thing in the world. That is in essence the joy of life, the only thing that makes this life worth the pain of living it through.

It is being in a position where love becomes impossible that is the real yoke.

 

[dad]

I really like this try.
For example, loving your wife or kids should be about the easiest thing in the world. That is in essence the joy of life, the only thing that makes this life worth the pain of living it through.

It is being in a position where love becomes impossible that is the real yoke.

His love in us makes it easy. Not our own little love.

 

[Open Heart]

OK, I'll try. His command is to love and preach the gospel and believe. Not grievous or some heavy yoke, these things.

Remember that once you realize you need to keep his commandments, the next question is, WHICH commandments? The 613 of the Mosaic covenant were given to Israel. I keep the 613 because I'm a Jew and it is my birthright. But the Mosaic laws were never given to the nations, so you are not obligated to i.e. keep kosher, observe Sabbath, or keep the Holy Days of Israel.

But there are universal commandments -- Cain was punished for killing Abel for instance. These universal commandments can be found in the New Testament. And they are gathered under the heading, "Love God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself." It is okay to study the Torah for inspiration on how to keep that -- it gives good ideas.

 

[dad]

Remember that once you realize you need to keep his commandments, the next question is, WHICH commandments? The 613 of the Mosaic covenant were given to Israel. I keep the 613 because I'm a Jew and it is my birthright. But the Mosaic laws were never given to the nations, so you are not obligated to i.e. keep kosher, observe Sabbath, or keep the Holy Days of Israel.

But there are universal commandments -- Cain was punished for killing Abel for instance. These universal commandments can be found in the New Testament. And they are gathered under the heading, "Love God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself." It is okay to study the Torah for inspiration on how to keep that -- it gives good ideas.

The command to believe. That is the one for getting saved. After that...love God and others.

 

[SolomonVII]

Which commandments would even be required when dealing with loved ones?
Would you steal from them, cheat on them, deny them, ignore them for someone else?
Love supersedes the need for commandments. From love all the commandments flow naturally.

 

[dad]

Which commandments would even be required when dealing with loved ones?
Would you steal from them, cheat on them, deny them, ignore them for someone else?
Love supersedes the need for commandments. From love all the commandments flow naturally.

The commandment to bring up children right and preach the gospel are part of love.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Which commandments would even be required when dealing with loved ones?
Would you steal from them, cheat on them, deny them, ignore them for someone else?
Love supersedes the need for commandments. From love all the commandments flow naturally.

Yes ..that is the New Covenant isn't it ? Love whereby all other things flow from that ... But love and sacrifice are of course synonyms as is truth and love. If it were possible to keep all of the various commandments ( and apparently Saul /Paul ) did a very good job , it still would end in self -righteousness and despising of others.
Of course in Deuteronomy 18:15 we are told to "hear"/obey the Words of Christ Jesus since He is the living Word of God. Loving one's enemies is a joy. Praying for those who despite fully use you again is a joy . Where there seems to be some difficulty in the church is His words regarding money, possessions and remarriage. ( Laying not up treasures , etc. ) He that seeks to save his life will lose his life .

I am not convinced some even know what love is until those who you have loved prior to following Christ , like children , spouse , siblings , etc are now become your enemies . It makes it even more difficult when they also profess to be followers of the narrow way that leads to life. Jesus said to expect that. Of course God loved us when we were His enemies and were "of the world " . Christ was crucified by those who professed God ..His own knew Him not. That had to be tough . So to tie back in to your comment ...Love is the answer but love in action actually cost us everything.

 

[SolomonVII]

Yes ..that is the New Covenant isn't it ? Love whereby all other things flow from that ... But love and sacrifice are of course synonyms as is truth and love. If it were possible to keep all of the various commandments ( and apparently Saul /Paul ) did a very good job , it still would end in self -righteousness and despising of others.
Of course in Deuteronomy 18:15 we are told to "hear"/obey the Words of Christ Jesus since He is the living Word of God. Loving one's enemies is a joy. Praying for those who despite fully use you again is a joy . Where there seems to be some difficulty in the church is His words regarding money, possessions and remarriage. ( Laying not up treasures , etc. ) He that seeks to save his life will lose his life .

I am not convinced some even know what love is until those who you have loved prior to following Christ , like children , spouse , siblings , etc are now become your enemies . It makes it even more difficult when they also profess to be followers of the narrow way that leads to life. Jesus said to expect that. Of course God loved us when we were His enemies and were "of the world " . Christ was crucified by those who professed God ..His own knew Him not. That had to be tough . So to tie back in to your comment ...Love is the answer but love in action actually cost us everything.

Maybe a good simile to fulfilling the sacrifices of the law, and fulfilling the sacrifices of love might be the difference between an exercise routine and playing a sport. They may well end up at the same place of a fit body, but one goes through the routine because one feels they are obligated to, and one plays a sport because of the passion for the game. It is fun and it is something that someone wants to do, not for the ends of getting fit, but for the pure enjoyment of the game.

Sacrifice is there in both cases, in terms of time, and terms of strained muscles, and with something like hockey a few teeth getting knocked out here and there that would not happen if you stuck to push-ups and sit-ups.

Following the letter of the law engenders resentment. It is like Buckley's; it tastes awful but it works. But really, it doesn't even really work. Nobody enters heaven through the law. Buckley's is no cure for the common cold either, for that matter.

But a sport can take us where we want to be, both in terms of fitness, and in terms of sheer joy.

It is the difference between trying to earn your salvation through grueling routine, or actually becoming a part of heaven through your passion for the sport.
If love is synonymous with truth and with sacrifice, it is doubly true that it is synonymous with the kingdom of heaven.
Heaven exists, even in the here and now, in the state of love that possesses us.

 

[dad]

It is the difference between trying to earn your salvation through grueling routine, or actually becoming a part of heaven through your passion for the sport..

The comparison is good. I was just wondering how much sheer joy a lot of the players on major teams have. They have ambulances standing by to cart off the wounded in many big games. Some compare it to war. Probably it is mostly about the money. But I guess you are talking about kids, or hobby sports or something?

The bible does talk about us in a war also and compares it to that. But I don't think that has anything to so with suggesting we engage in physical evil wars of man. Nor would I think it suggests we worship the Olympics, sports, and etc. After all, He takes no pleasure in the strength of a man's body.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Maybe a good simile to fulfilling the sacrifices of the law, and fulfilling the sacrifices of love might be the difference between an exercise routine and playing a sport. They may well end up at the same place of a fit body, but one goes through the routine because one feels they are obligated to, and one plays a sport because of the passion for the game. It is fun and it is something that someone wants to do, not for the ends of getting fit, but for the pure enjoyment of the game.

Sacrifice is there in both cases, in terms of time, and terms of strained muscles, and with something like hockey a few teeth getting knocked out here and there that would not happen if you stuck to push-ups and sit-ups.

Following the letter of the law engenders resentment. It is like Buckley's; it tastes awful but it works. But really, it doesn't even really work. Nobody enters heaven through the law. Buckley's is no cure for the common cold either, for that matter.

But a sport can take us where we want to be, both in terms of fitness, and in terms of sheer joy.

It is the difference between trying to earn your salvation through grueling routine, or actually becoming a part of heaven through your passion for the sport.
If love is synonymous with truth and with sacrifice, it is doubly true that it is synonymous with the kingdom of heaven.
Heaven exists, even in the here and now, in the state of love that possesses us.

Maybe a good simile to fulfilling the sacrifices of the law, and fulfilling the sacrifices of love might be the difference between an exercise routine and playing a sport. They may well end up at the same place of a fit body, but one goes through the routine because one feels they are obligated to, and one plays a sport because of the passion for the game. It is fun and it is something that someone wants to do, not for the ends of getting fit, but for the pure enjoyment of the game.

Yes ! Yes ! That is it exactly as I view it and often see it in my own walk. ( I am still working out my salvation ) I often see that even in my prayers many times and I have to start all over ..in other words , it is like my children sending me a fathers day card expressing their love and me being the best dad ever but them not wanting to spend time with me ...disingenuous...some times my prayers are like that ..checking off a box .."sending the card so to speak " ..then ( by God's grace and mercy ) He will show me that at which point I repent because that is not the type of relationship I seek with our Father . And that is not why Christ died ..so I could have a superficial relationship . But it is truly difficult when there is a very real tangible cost to " playing a sport " . When the cost is your family ..your little ones . You are of course familiar with Perpetua and Felicity who are recognized as Saints in the Catholic Church. Not knowing anyone personally on this forum , I do not know what following our Lord Jesus has cost them personally but a theoretical cost does not bring tears and agony but also joy and hope . There is a very real reason we are told to bear one another's burdens .
I see you are Catholic ( it matters not to me ) but interesting in that me having come from a protestant background originally , the emphasis is on grace and "getting saved " but a kind of grace that perhaps sacrifices truth. It seems somewhere , the gospel became about man and as I understand it while it is for man , it is about Christ to the glory of God whether we be found faithful or not . Just read " The Faith , the History of Christianity " by Brian Monahan ...Very indepth look at Christianity by a historian . I am not sure he is a person of faith so I did not detect any hidden agenda such a promoting a theology or a doctrine which I prefer.
We are told to run the race ..to whom much is given , much is required ..to count the cost and so on ..these things had more meaning when following Christ meant a potential death sentence as it does in many places on earth ....Here in the US , it usually means loosing family and friends , respect ..careers ..being viewed as a nut but we have that promise from our Lord ..if they have called me beezlebub ...etc. Thank you for your reply . Yours in Christ .