I love being a Creationist!

guzman

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You know what the cool thing about being a creationist is? I mean really, really cool? For me, it's such a wonderful thing to see the Glory of God, not only in the Scriptures, but in nature. It's almost like two separate books written by the same Author. The book of Scripture (The Bible)...and the Book of Life (nature.) And the thing is, with just a little bit of investigation, it's easy to see that these two books are congruent and tell the same story.

What strikes me about Genesis, in particular, is how profound it really is, starting with the first sentence: "In the Beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth." Please notice there is no mention of material in that sentence. There is no mention of "molding" or "forming" anything, as if God's got a big blob of clay of pre-existing matter to work with. Instead, it says God simply created....and His creation became a reality with His spoken word. And I find this interesting because I think it shows how simple it was for God to create the world. Effortless even. We've probably all dreamed or imagined at one time or another of having magical powers -- to be able to speak and have something appear or disappear or respond to your command.

Well in a way, I think that's how God's creation was set up. Lifeforms are indeed miraculous and we were all created in such a way that we're like little mirrors of our Creator. Obviously lifeforms' abilities are limited, but the way animals change their physical characteristics must be similar to how they were created in the first place -- purposefully, intelligently, nonrandomly, effortlessly, and even more strikingly -- out of nothing.

Notice these lizards....how does this happen -- from where do these new, adaptive legs arise?


http://www.oeb.harvard.edu/faculty/l...Losos_2005.pdf

ABSTRACT.—The positive relationship between hind-limb length and perch diameter is well established in
Anolis lizards, both among populations of some species and among species. Interspecific comparisons indicate
that longer legs confer an advantage for increased running speed on broad substrates, whereas shorter limbs
provide greater maneuverability on narrow surfaces. In this light, phenotypic plasticity for hind-limb length
previously detected in Anolis sagrei may be adaptive because hatchlings exposed to only broad substrates
developed relatively longer hind limbs for their body size compared to hatchlings exposed to only narrow
substrates.

"Developed" from what? The chemicals in the grass?..."Leg-forming" chemicals?

Here's another:

http://dbs.umt.edu/research_labs/emlenlab/Lab/Miller/miller_research.htm

Nymphs of Leptoscelis tricolor express color plasticity; nymphs grow to match the color of their surrounding environment

From where did this new color scheme come from? The Tooth Fairy?


I believe we exist at this moment because God willed us into the finite. Likewise, I believe these lizards' new limbs and insects' new designes exist because the individual creatures willed them (albeit on a subconscious level) into the finite....this is possible because lifeforms were designed with an intelligent, built-in capability to be adaptively creative to changing environments.

But you evolutionists say there is no such thing as intelligence in lifeforms. There's no intelligence in your genome, no intelligence in your cells, no intelligence in your brain, or anywhere else. And the reason you don't believe in intelligence is because intelligence is not only non-physical, but it contradicts your beloved selectionism. Selectionism was designed as a replacement for intelligence.....but with intelligence, selectionism is reduced to a 20th century disbanded cult religion.

So I have a couple questions for evolutionists:

1). How does this new lizard leg happen without some sort of intelligence? How could this happen if the lizard's brain/mind/nervous system (whatever) was unable to be aware of his surroundings? Do you deny that there must be an awareness here on some level -- either the conscious or subconscious level? If there is no awareness, how does this happen? If there is awareness (followed up by a response) how can you say there is no intelligence?

2). if there is no intellence in your body, how in the world can you claim to be intelligent? I mean if nothing in your body "knows" anything, and nothing in your body is "aware" of anything -- and nothing in your body is intelligently responsive, how is it that you, as a whole, can be these things? How can you be aware, responsive, or intelligent if nothing in your body is?

3). You people say intelligence is not responsible for the increase in leg length or other instant changes in animals that are a direct result of an environmental change. So let me ask you, what type of evidence would it take to change your mind? How could you be convinced that lifeforms were created with an intelligent, built-in ability to be creative? What would you have to see that you're not currently seeing?
 
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NavyGuy7

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I see one of the greatest benefits of being a creationist as the ability to use 'magic' as an explanation. On the science side we don't have that luxury.


Actually..... that's funny. Science is a God-created thing. Hehe. I think God used your very science, not "magic". Unless Science IS magic. I read a book like that once, for kiddies. Do not mock those you do not yet know.
 
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Nathan45

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1). How does this new lizard leg happen without some sort of intelligence? How could this happen if the lizard's brain/mind/nervous system (whatever) was unable to be aware of his surroundings? Do you deny that there must be an awareness here on some level -- either the conscious or subconscious level? If there is no awareness, how does this happen? If there is awareness (followed up by a response) how can you say there is no intelligence?

Intelligence in what? the lizard or the designer?

... It is demonstrable that most animals display a certain ammount of plasticity.... and humans are no exception. For example, weightlifting. You can train your body to be stronger... i'm not an expert on this, but IIRC, if a muscle becomes torn and such from overuse, it respondes by sending out chemicals saying that it should be rebuilt larger and stronger. Probably something similar is going on with the lizard's legs here. Morover, the beetles could easily have some way of detecting color in their surrounding, which could be linked somehow to their skin pigment.

3). You people say intelligence is not responsible for the increase in leg length or other instant changes in animals that are a direct result of an environmental change.

When you lift weights and the next day your muscles are slighly larger, do you attribute this to God or chemistry?

So let me ask you, what type of evidence would it take to change your mind? How could you be convinced that lifeforms were created with an intelligent, built-in ability to be creative?

I was under the impression that creationists thought it was God doing all the creating, not the life forms themselves.

What would you have to see that you're not currently seeing?

To be convinced of what? are you asserting that God directly intervenes whenever a lizard grows longer legs than usual? I couldn't be convinced of this. Or what are you asserting?
 
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lemmings

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The greatest thing about being a Creationist is the ability to call upon a supernatural, undetected, unproven, shape-shifting entity known as a god whenever the going gets though and you don’t know how to respond to critics.


Long have I wished for the ability to answer X=X on math examinations like the Creationists use Goddidit on their science examinations.
 
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guzman

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Nathan:

... It is demonstrable that most animals display a certain ammount of plasticity....

did you notice how I asked you how it happened without intelligence, yet you failed to answer?


When you lift weights and the next day your muscles are slighly larger, do you attribute this to God or chemistry?

God gave me muscles to flex and use....why are you avoiding my questions?

I was under the impression that creationists thought it was God doing all the creating, not the life forms themselves.

I told you in my post I believe God created animals with a built-in creative potential...this creativity requires intelligence -- organisms must be able to sense the environment and make the appropriate response.

Why don't you go back and answer my questions.
 
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Nathan45

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Nathan:

... It is demonstrable that most animals display a certain ammount of plasticity....

did you notice how I asked you how it happened without intelligence, yet you failed to answer?

Obviously my response would be it happened by natural selection. Animals can evolve to dynamically adapt to their surroundings.

When you lift weights and the next day your muscles are slighly larger, do you attribute this to God or chemistry
God gave me muscles to flex and use....why are you avoiding my questions?

I don't think i particularly understand what you are asking, maybe you should rephrase the question after clarifying.

I was under the impression that creationists thought it was God doing all the creating, not the life forms themselves.
I told you in my post I believe God created animals with a built-in creative potential...this creativity requires intelligence -- organisms must be able to sense the environment and make the appropriate response.

how is this contrary to evolution? it's well known that evolved animals have many different methods for gathering sensory information.
 
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Blayz

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So I have a couple questions for evolutionists:

1). How does this new lizard leg happen without some sort of intelligence? How could this happen if the lizard's brain/mind/nervous system (whatever) was unable to be aware of his surroundings? Do you deny that there must be an awareness here on some level -- either the conscious or subconscious level? If there is no awareness, how does this happen? If there is awareness (followed up by a response) how can you say there is no intelligence?

It doesn't require intelligence. All it requires, as you have said, is an awareness on some level (which could be as simple as a chemical signal) together with some ability for environmentally induced phenotypic change.

E coli will produce lactase only in the presence of lactose. E coli will also swim up a sugar gradient. It's not "intelligence" causing these changes.


2). if there is no intellence in your body
Where are you getting this from? Who said there was no intelligence?

3). You people say intelligence is not responsible for the increase in leg length or other instant changes in animals that are a direct result of an environmental change. So let me ask you, what type of evidence would it take to change your mind? How could you be convinced that lifeforms were created with an intelligent, built-in ability to be creative? What would you have to see that you're not currently seeing?
Well personally, I'd like a better definition of "intelligence".

Mostly though, I agree with everything you said, except for the god bits.

EDIT: except the creationist bit as well, obviously, I'd be deeply saddened at the thought of not being able to determine how something does something beyond goddidit
 
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notto

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I guess the best thing about being a creationists is that you can use wishful thinking and a poor understanding of evolution and genetics to make claims and you never need to change your mind even when presented with overwhelming evidence that you are misunderstanding a lot of what you are reading and ignoring the rest.

You have been presented with tons of articles and research in the past that explains plasticity and explains where new variation comes from.

You never did tell us why the Rock Mouse doesn't fit your challenges.

I'm guessing that if you actually read up on either of these there is a classic genetic component that can be found as your explanation.

I can only imagine that as a creationist you won't look real hard because as experience has show you you may not like what you find when you actually do research.

Had you read past the abstract, you would have found this:

Thus, natural
selection on hind-limb length occurs, and a quantitative
genetic basis for hind-limb variation exists in natural
populations
, which suggests that genetically based
differences in hind-limb length
might rapidly evolve
among populations of A. sagrei.

The trait is an evolved trait signaled by stimulus such as wrapping of the foot around a branch (instead of having it walk flat) during development. It really isn't that amazing or uncommon. It can be explained by known and observable mechanisms (not requiring any decision by the creature) and probably directly affects survivability so it is selected for.

A great example of an observable and explainable evolved trait.
 
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Opethian

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Yeah, being a creationist is great. A typical creationist lifecycle on this forum consists of starting a thread with data/quotes/whatever that are put out of context or misinterpreted in some other way to support creationism, then being shown that the data/quotes/whatever actually support evolution theory, followed by denial/changing the subject/fleeing the thread and starting a new one.
 
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guzman

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Blayze : It doesn't require intelligence. All it requires, as you have said, is an awareness on some level (which could be as simple as a chemical signal) together with some ability for environmentally induced phenotypic change.

And what level would that be? How could there be awareness in cells or molecules? How could there be awareness without intelligence?
 
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guzman

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I guess the best thing about being a creationists is that you can use wishful thinking and a poor understanding of evolution and genetics to make claims and you never need to change your mind even when presented with overwhelming evidence that you are misunderstanding a lot of what you are reading and ignoring the rest.

You have been presented with tons of articles and research in the past that explains plasticity and explains where new variation comes from.

You never did tell us why the Rock Mouse doesn't fit your challenges.
I'm guessing that if you actually read up on either of these there is a classic genetic component that can be found as your explanation.
I can only imagine that as a creationist you won't look real hard because as experience has show you you may not like what you find when you actually do research.

Had you read past the abstract, you would have found this:

snip

Ok so I'll skip all this because it's nothing but rhetoric...let's move on....

The trait is an evolved trait signaled by stimulus such as wrapping of the foot around a branch (instead of having it walk flat) during development. It really isn't that amazing or uncommon. It can be explained by known and observable mechanisms (not requiring any decision by the creature) and probably directly affects survivability so it is selected for.

First of all, are you telling me that this is purely a physical thing -- that the grass/branches themselves caused the bone to grow bigger? There was no signal from the nervous system, no hormones, no awareness? If so, that's exactly why I put the other link in -- which you conveniently ignored. How does an insect change colors to match up to his environment without a signal originating from within the organism to commence the change? If you admit to some kind of awareness or that something must signal a release of hormones (maybe originating in the nervous system or brain) then what exactly IS this thing responsible for interpreting the environment and sending the signal. Oh, by the way, I do have backup:

http://www.biology.duke.edu/nijhout/polyphenism.htm

It appears that in the control of polyphenic development, hormones act as stimuli that induce discrete switches in developmental pathways. There is independent regulation of the pattern of hormone secretion, of tissue receptivity to the hormone, and of the developmental response of each tissue to the hormone. Because hormone secretion is regulated by the central nervous system, this mechanism allows development to become responsive to environmental variables. Variation in tissue sensitivity to the hormones allows the developmental switch to produce alternative phenotypes in response to specific environmental signals. This is interesting from an evolutionary perspective because genetic variation in the signal and the response mechanisms provide the basis for the evolution of adaptive developmental responses to environmental contingencies.

Ah! what do you know....I'm right. Now...tell me how the central nervous system "knows" what's going on in the external and tell me how it "knows" how to respond accordingly. Good luck....you're going to need it.
 
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ChordatesLegacy

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Nathan:

... It is demonstrable that most animals display a certain ammount of plasticity....

did you notice how I asked you how it happened without intelligence, yet you failed to answer?


When you lift weights and the next day your muscles are slighly larger, do you attribute this to God or chemistry?

God gave me muscles to flex and use....why are you avoiding my questions?

I was under the impression that creationists thought it was God doing all the creating, not the life forms themselves.

I told you in my post I believe God created animals with a built-in creative potential...this creativity requires intelligence -- organisms must be able to sense the environment and make the appropriate response.

Why don't you go back and answer my questions.

Animals change in response to the environment, and these changes can occur in one generation (small changes). A good example that as been studied is the height of people in the Channel Islands. These islands were occupied by the Germans during WW2 when food was at a premium, which lead to children of that time being significantly shorter that Islander that grow up before or after the war when food was more readily available.

This is the research papers, but you need a pass word, happy hunting.

People shorter during food shortage


No magic needed, no intelligence needed, it’s as simple as this.

Environmental change = species change


In essence species change as adoption to changes in the environment; without any conscious thought to what’s going on.

NO MAGIC, NO GOD’S INTERVENING, NO FAIRIES, NO SPELLS and of course what really cuts you up NO AFTERLIFE.
 
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Blayz

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Blayze : It doesn't require intelligence. All it requires, as you have said, is an awareness on some level (which could be as simple as a chemical signal) together with some ability for environmentally induced phenotypic change.

And what level would that be? How could there be awareness in cells or molecules? How could there be awareness without intelligence?

As I said, it can be a simple as a chemical signal. Lactose binds to the lac repressor protein and thus turns on the lactose digesting enzymes. Its an awareness that requires no intelligence. All you need is a feedback circuit...and biological systems have developed some mighty complex circuits.
 
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guzman

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Animals change in response to the environment, and these changes can occur in one generation (small changes). A good example that as been studied is the height of people in the Channel Islands. These islands were occupied by the Germans during WW2 when food was at a premium, which lead to children of that time being significantly shorter that Islander that grow up before or after the war when food was more readily available.

This is the research papers, but you need a pass word, happy hunting.

People shorter during food shortage


No magic needed, no intelligence needed, it’s as simple as this.

Environmental change = species change


In essence species change as adoption to changes in the environment; without any conscious thought to what’s going on.

NO MAGIC, NO GOD’S INTERVENING, NO FAIRIES, NO SPELLS and of course what really cuts you up NO AFTERLIFE.

it's funny how you cite a perfectly good example why evolution is false. If everyone in a society ate less food and thus did not grow, although there may be no "magic" involved (though there most certainly is an external signal to halt growth -- which you can't explain) the fact remains that the population changed nonrandomly and by a way other than RMNS, which is the evolutionist explanation for change. If these bones were thus dug up thousands of years later scientists would have been scratching their heads and asking themselves in a stupor, "Now why would these short poeple been selected for....what mutation would have caused people to not grow?" See how it is that evolution is an illusion? The fact is, change happens internally within each person -- it's a result of an interaction between the individual and the environment. You just disproved your theory.
 
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guzman

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So Chrodates...tell me how it is that organisms in their eggs can sense predators on the outside and delay their hatch times so that they emerge larger.........you don't find that in the least bit "magic?" I would call it miraculous, as I believe life is miraculous and non-scientific.....if you believe this has a scientific (aka accidental) explanation then please enlighten me.


Egg hatching time is plastic in response to the presence of predators and predator
chemical cues. This adaptive plasticity facilitates an increased survivorship of hatchlings
in the presence of predators (Sih and Moore 1993; Warkentin 2000). Andrew Sih and
Robert Moore examined predation pressure upon salamander hatchlings and the resultant
plastic responses the hatchlings exhibited. Flatworms (Phagocotus gracilis) were used as
predators or predator chemical cues upon salamander larvae (Ambystoma texanum and
2

Ambystoma barbouri
). The presence of the flatworms and their cues induced the eggs to

delay their hatching time. This resulted in larger, and more advanced hatchlings. This
finding supports the earlier field observations that the flatworm preyed heavily on
smaller, less developed hatchlings. This shift in hatch time is adaptive and supports
greater hatchling survival (Sih and Moore 1993).


 
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Blayz

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Bacterial movement up a sugar gradient is kewler. Motile bacteria (those with flagella) can spin their flagella clockwise or anti clockwise. In one direction it causes forward movement, in the other it causes the bacteria to tumble in place, and basically choose a new direction at random. In the presence of a positive stimulus (such as sugar), the glucose receptors cause a signal transduction which alters the frequencies of tumbles to straight swims.

Move away from sugar, tumble more
Move towards sugar, tumble less.

The end result is the bacteria moves towards its food source.

Very elegant (and note the above is a simplification)
 
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