I just now realized that I am a Calvinist!

[Skala]

The history of Christian doctrine proves that this is not the case. If there is anything that Calvinists hate more than the Roman Catholic Church, it is the history of Christian doctrine that proves them to be innovators rather than reformers.

It is the case. Christians as far back as Augustine and the council of Orange believed and taught predestination and monergism. What you and I know as "Calvinism" is nothing more than the detailed explanation of these truths. Did God predestine us? Absolutely he did. See Romans and Ephesians. Did Jesus die to secure the salvation of those the Father gave him? Absolutely he did, see John 6 and John 10. Will God fail to bring to full salvation those He predestined? He will not, see Romans 8:29-30. Are we saved because of what we did or because of what God did? Answer: What God did: See Ephesians 1 and 2.

I'm sorry you refuse to acknowledge the facts.

The reformers didn't create something new. They taught old doctrine that the Roman Catholic church had slowly lost grip on. Their goal was to RE-form the church back to what it was. If you think the reformers invented new teachings, you are grossly ignorant.

Even a cursory reading of the Bible shows that God is in absolute control of all things, and that includes salvation. God controls everything even seemingly random things like rolling dice. Prov 16:33 Jesus spoke in parables to conceal the truth from those it was not meant for. God controls the kings heart like a stream of water in his hands, he turns it wherever he will. We cannot see the kingdom let alone enter it until we are first born again. I could go on and on about how you have nothing to do with your salvation anymore than a dead man has to do with his own resurrection. Go figure, that's the analogy Paul used to describe how God saves us.

 

[98cwitr]

Some of the finest preaching that I have ever heard came from the mouth of the late Raymond E. Brown. Indeed, he was such an excellent preacher that he was honored to be the guest preacher in some of our finest Baptist churches! He is not, however, known so well for his preaching as he is for his 1,370 page exegetical commentary of the Gospel According to John which is very frequently quoted by scholars of a very wide spectrum of theological opinion—including the very finest Baptist scholars! And what Baptist would attempt a serious study of the Gospel According to Luke without frequently opening the pages of the 1,704 page exegetical commentary on that gospel by Joseph A. Fitzmyer, the same Fitzmyer who authored the 827 page exegetical commentary on Romans that is today one of the most frequently cited commentaries on Romans. We should also mention the 508 page exegetical commentary on the First and Second Epistles to Timothy by Luke Timothy Johnson. We might also mention, if we had the time, the very many other works by these four Roman Catholic scholars that have been a blessing to Baptists around the world. I am still waiting for a Baptist scholar to write an exegetical commentary on the Gospel According to Luke and on the Gospel According to John that come even remotely close to those of Fitzmyer and Brown. Very few Baptist have written an exegetical commentary of any consequence on Paul’s Epistle to the Romans. The best one, to date, is the one by Thomas R. Schreiner in the Baker Exegetical Commentary Series. It, too, is lengthy (940 pages), and he cites Fitzmyer over 450 times! Our Baptist churches are still waiting for an exegetical commentary of consequence by a Baptist scholar on the Pastoral Epistles.

Baptists who dismiss some the finest biblical scholarship of all time simply because the scholar was a Roman Catholic are denying themselves of one of God’s most important gifts to the student of the Bible. However, a Roman Catholic mass is something that I have experienced only three or four times, and I do not plan on experiencing one again!

Seems like more of a quantitative promotion...rather than qualitative. I don't care how many pages they wrote or how many churches they preached in...how many of them were absolute truths?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Correct. You should have stopped there.
That doesn't even make sense.

It won't help.
Correct. Incorrect. We are justified by faith. We are justified by faith.


Correct.

Hopefully I've shed some light on your errors.

Please study the doctrine of total depravity as taught by Calvin and Beza. Their doctrine of monergism is a subset of the doctrine of total depravity. I agree that we are justified by faith, but Calvin taught than justification and regeneration must precede faith because a depraved man cannot have saving faith. Modern Calvinists teach the same thing!

Regeneration Precedes Faith

 

[Hammster]

Please study the doctrine of total depravity as taught by Calvin and Beza. Their doctrine of monergism is a subset of the doctrine of total depravity. I agree that we are justified by faith, but Calvin taught than justification and regeneration must precede faith because a depraved man cannot have saving faith. Modern Calvinists teach the same thing!

Regeneration Precedes Faith

Regeneration precedes faith. Justification is by faith. Please don't muddle that up.

Perhaps you should read the article you linked to.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Regeneration precedes faith. Justification is by faith. Please don't muddle that up.

Perhaps you should read the article you linked to.

Justification must precede regeneration because we cannot be united with Christ while we are still in our sins.

 

[Hammster]

Justification must precede regeneration because we cannot be united with Christ while we are still in our sins.

Please stop redefining monergism.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Please study the doctrine of total depravity as taught by Calvin and Beza. Their doctrine of monergism is a subset of the doctrine of total depravity. I agree that we are justified by faith, but Calvin taught than justification and regeneration must precede faith because a depraved man cannot have saving faith. Modern Calvinists teach the same thing!

Regeneration Precedes Faith

Thanks for posting that link. It was a good read. You shot yourself in the foot with it, but it was still a worthwhile endeavor.

 

[Hammster]

Well, that was fun.

 

[Petruchio]

Does your answer fairly represent your spiritual condition and your attitude toward people who believe differently than you do?

You've spent the entire thread essentially accusing people of being idiots who have not even read the Bible, and have failed even to defend yourself in a rational way. And then you project your own judgments upon others, as if you are not guilty of the same behavior. What you write here, for instance, is accusing someone of judging other people's spiritual conditions because they "believe differently" than they do. This is, in fact, what you are doing. And then to top it all off, you beat your chest, telling us how humble you are and how great you are, studying the Hebrew and the Greek and the like, and even declare that you are Divinely Taught in a way none of us are.

This is the height of phariseeism, and I, personally, would question your salvation absolutely.

 

[Proud Parrot]

My deepest sympathies.

I just now realized that I am a Calvinist. Tom Cuckoo is a one-point Calvinist. Dick Chimey is a three-point Calvinist. Harry Tick Talk is a five-point Calvinist. And I am a zero-point Calvinist!

Are you a Tom, Dick, or Harry Calvinist, or one of a different kind—perhaps one like me?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

You've spent the entire thread essentially accusing people of being idiots who have not even read the Bible, and have failed even to defend yourself in a rational way. And then you project your own judgments upon others, as if you are not guilty of the same behavior. What you write here, for instance, is accusing someone of judging other people's spiritual conditions because they "believe differently" than they do. This is, in fact, what you are doing. And then to top it all off, you beat your chest, telling us how humble you are and how great you are, studying the Hebrew and the Greek and the like, and even declare that you are Divinely Taught in a way none of us are.

This is the height of phariseeism, and I, personally, would question your salvation absolutely.

Wow! If a mean, arrogant, condescending, judging man like that moved into my neighborhood, I would sell my house and move to another part of the country!

 

[KnowHisJoy77]

Same here. I was attending an Anglican Bible study and when it came time to talk about soteriology I was labeled a Calvinist. So I did what every good biblical Calvinist does, DENIED IT! I explained I never read Calvin and avoided reading him for years but now...I just admit it.

Would "I" be easier understood as conquering grace or overwhelming love? God will eventually conquering the sinful rebel with overwhelming love...

Yours in the Lord,

Harry Calvinist

me too...I did embrace some points as truth when I was Pentecostal very young in the faith.

for sure the grace is irresistible and God is sovereign!

I forgot and dont remember which points I did have some issues with..have to revisit it again..last time 8 years ago I think..

One of the best teachings about the Holy Spirit I heard comes from Sinclair Ferguson from Ligonier. I like my teachers having accents I guess, most the ones I like are British.

 

[Winman]

Regeneration precedes faith. Justification is by faith. Please don't muddle that up.

Perhaps you should read the article you linked to.

Logically impossible. Until you believe you are dead in sins.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus said unless you believe you shall die in your sins, so how can a person be spiritually alive before they believe? They can't, it's logically impossible.

You have been taught a falsehood.

 

[Hammster]

Logically impossible. Until you believe you are dead in sins.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus said unless you believe you shall die in your sins, so how can a person be spiritually alive before they believe? They can't, it's logically impossible.

You have been taught a falsehood.

No, I just understand the difference between physical death and being spiritually dead.

 

[Winman]

No, I just understand the difference between physical death and being spiritually dead.

Obviously you do not. Jesus said unless you believe ye shall die "in your sins". This is speaking of eternal spiritual death.

We are justified or forgiven our sins by faith. Until you believe you are still spiritually dead in sins, it is impossible to be spiritually alive until AFTER you believe. You have been taught a logical impossibility and have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

A person who has believed is not condemned, but those persons who have not believed are condemned ALREADY. They are completely dead in trespasses and sins. No one is quickened or made spiritually alive until their sins are forgiven, and no one is forgiven until they first believe.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

We are quickened when all our sins are forgiven. Until you believe you are condemned and completely dead in sin.

You have been taught a falsehood.

 

[Hammster]

Obviously you do not. Jesus said unless you believe ye shall die "in your sins". This is speaking of eternal spiritual death.

We are justified or forgiven our sins by faith. Until you believe you are still spiritually dead in sins, it is impossible to be spiritually alive until AFTER you believe. You have been taught a logical impossibility and have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

A person who has believed is not condemned, but those persons who have not believed are condemned ALREADY. They are completely dead in trespasses and sins. No one is quickened or made spiritually alive until their sins are forgiven, and no one is forgiven until they first believe.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

We are quickened when all our sins are forgiven. Until you believe you are condemned and completely dead in sin.

You have been taught a falsehood.

You've confused regeneration and justification. We are justified by faith. We aren't regenerated by faith.

 

[Avid]

Obviously you do not. Jesus said unless you believe ye shall die "in your sins". This is speaking of eternal spiritual death...

Actually, no, the person in question is dead spiritually, having not been quickened in the spirit. The person walks this Earth till death takes him out of the world, and he remains in his sins to that point.

Trying to quell a controversy that is no real controversy. It is merely misunderstanding that to DIE IN YOUR SINS means that one is in the state of being IN THEIR SIN right to the POINT OF DEATH, and there is no remedy for them after leaving this life.
.

 

[Avid]

You've confused regeneration and justification. We are justified by faith. We aren't regenerated by faith.

Man needs to be regenerated by God to even give any attention to the truth. Man in the Flesh, the carnal mind, the Fallen Nature, cannot receive anything from God. He is at enmity with God.

Romans 8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
​

This regeneration make it possible for man to repent and receive the gift of God. Man is required to do what he is incapable of doing in his own power. Not only that, man doesn't want anything to do with God till God corrects this enmity by regeneration. Then, man can hear and understand. It is then we would see the man submit to God, and learn the truth. Eventually, the gift of Grace from God is given so he may do the things required for salvation.

.

 

[Winman]

You've confused regeneration and justification. We are justified by faith. We aren't regenerated by faith.

I haven't confused anything. The word regeneration literally means to be made alive (generated) again (re). I am familiar with Calvinist doctrine and know that most Calvinists (but not all) believe that a person must be made spiritually alive before they have the ability to believe. However, ALL scripture says a person must believe before they are made spiritually alive.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

It is impossible that John is saying we must believe to have physical life here, so he MUST be speaking of spiritual life.

Jesus said the person who has believed has passed from death to life.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Again, it is impossible that Jesus is saying that the person who has believed has passed from physical death to physical life here, he MUST be speaking of passing from spiritual death to spiritual life, or "regeneration" as Calvinists call it.

All scripture says you must first believe to have spiritual life or regeneration.

You have been taught falsehood. You cannot show scripture that supports your view, you have believed what others have told you.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Man needs to be regenerated by God to even give any attention to the truth. Man in the Flesh, the carnal mind, the Fallen Nature, cannot receive anything from God. He is at enmity with God.

Romans 8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
​

This regeneration make it possible for man to repent and receive the gift of God. Man is required to do what he is incapable of doing in his own power. Not only that, man doesn't want anything to do with God till God corrects this enmity by regeneration. Then, man can hear and understand. It is then we would see the man submit to God, and learn the truth. Eventually, the gift of Grace from God is given so he may do the things required for salvation.

The quote from Romans 8 does not support the false statements that “Man needs to be regenerated by God to even give any attention to the truth. Man in the Flesh, the carnal mind, the Fallen Nature, cannot receive anything from God.” A man who has a carnal mind that is not subject to the law of God may be very interested in the truth and may devote his life to knowing the truth—yet not learn a vital aspect of it. Furthermore, a man who has a carnal mind that is not subject to the law of God may receive very much from God—including truth about his sinful nature and the atonement of Christ—and yet refuse to submit to the law of God.

Moreover, regeneration is not required for repentance. All through the Old Testament, we find unregenerate men repenting and subsequently returning to their sins. The very many religions that we find throughout history and throughout the world incontrovertibly prove that man wants to have a good relationship with God, but he needs to learn how to have it. Very many of these men, upon hearing and understanding how to have a good relationship with God, do not like the terms and therefore refuse to submit—thereby remaining unregenerate.