Hmm, someone(endure) who shares a differnent view on tongues than I has actually responded to my questions. That's great, as outa the approxamatly 20 people I've talked to about tongues, all of them have ignored my questions.
*I will gladly answer them all*
It's good to see someone willing to try and back up their beliefs with the Bible(as endure did, and as I will now try to do again).
Just a note, I may only have time to address parts of the previous posts tonight, but I will do my best to address it completely by tomorrow night.
Ah, one of the trickiest section of verses in the Bible,
* Wrong..it only tricky is you are a cessationist....then it is tricky. It is very clear to me.
and one of the conerstone verses of the charismatic church.
*I glad you said one because there ae quite a few others.*
First, let's look at the verses surrounding Mark 16:17. And let's not just look at it in NIV(or a translation based on the NIV), but in both NIV, and NKJV(though most any non-NIV based translation has the differences I will point out). So, let's start by looking at Mark 16:14-20 in
NIV and
NKJV.
* I have a better idea. Lets examine the greek.
The key word for them there is "tios"
What does it refer to? By every law of greek translation it refers to ALL believers. It doesn't mean however that each sign will follow each believer..it simply means that a sign will follow each believer. One may have tongues...one may heal..one may prophesy. Your lack of knowledge as far as greek is concerned is apparent.*
The reason for using two translations here is because while the NIV is one of the more commonly used translations, I think the NKJV makes this even clearer.
First, look at the first word in verse 16. NKJV has "he" and NIV has "whoever". Both are singular("he" is definantly singular, as is "whoever", but we often missuse the latter when we talk today, so that is why I favour the NKJV here). Now, go look at who the "them"(notice, this a plural verb) in verse 15 refers too. Looking back at verse 14, we find it refers to the eleven(the disciples, but Judas has killed himself, so they are eleven
*Once again your lack of greek syntax is apparent. It in fact refers to every one who BELIEVES...that is the verb in the parsing of the greek. You don't have a leg to stand on if you are trying to insinuate that signs and wonders have ceased.*
instead of twelve right now). Now, carefully look at verses 17-18. In the NKJV, do they read:
And these signs will follow
he who believes: In My name
he will cast out demons;
he will speak with new tongues;
he will take up serpents; and if
he drinks anything deadly, it will by no means hurt
him;
he will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.
Or do they read:
And these signs will follow
those who believe: In My name
they will cast out demons;
they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if
they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt
them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
The correct answer is the last one.
CORRECT! It refers to ALL believers..."Those that believe" An apostolic qualification isn't even mentioned.... Look at STEVEN! In Acts.
Acts 6:8
8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people
NKJV
Now I'm told
this is completely obvious if you can read Greek(the original language Mark was written in), but as most don't, we instead must pick through these verses.
*I do read kione greek. Whoever told you that is in error*
If we trace the plurals used, we come back to finding out that the purals in this entire section refer to the eleven. Verses 17-18 aren't talking about Christians in general, but of the eleven. If that is not enough to convince you, then get this. If it is talking about Christians in general, Jesus is a liar. You see, if you wish to say it applies to all Christians, then you can for instance read it as follows:
And these signs will follow Billy Graham: In My name Billy Graham will cast out demons; Billy Graham will speak with new tongues; Billy Graham will take up serpents; and if Billy Graham drinks anything deadly, it will by no means hurt Billy Graham; Billy Graham will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.
Using your interpritation, we find that Jesus said Billy Graham will do all those things. No, not a "he might do all those things" but a "he will do all those things". Well, Billy Graham hasn't done all of those. Yes, I know, some Christians have been poisened with doses of poisen that should kill them ten times over, but it's not effected them(praise God! He does still work miricles). But those same Christians haven't done everything in verses 17-18.
Now, if anyone wishes to explain to me how what I have said is inaccurate, by all means, please do so.
<br>
*I will do so to a much fuller extent later. I'm sure most will agree this is enough for now. I will be happy to parse all the verses in greek. I suggest however that you bring your greek mentor into this discussion.*
Do not, do not however just say "you're twisting scripture" and then hit post. Please back up what you say.
osm
