I just never understood what it means....

[Rafael]

Just a simple question. If you speak in tongues and don't understand what you are saying and there is no one to interpret. How do you know you're praising God?

Do you know your own heart towards God? Can just words express all that He is to you?

"Oh for a thousand tongues to sing my great redeemer's praise", as the hymn goes....... or my version: Oh for a language that is worthy and adequate to speak of my great redeemer's praise. Let everything that has breathe and life praise the Lord and give thanks.

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Some of the teachers I most admire never spoke in tongues,so I figure it must be a gift given as the Lord wills. Each part of the body of Christ has work to do, and the gifts are there to help them. Each person must follow their own heart towards God, not judging others, but encouraging them to grow in grace.

 

[onajourney87]

You assume that the those who the signs aren't following are believers. Perhaps they AREN"T!
At least not to the degree required by our Father.
example:
Let's say I had instructions for assembling a radio.
I put the radio together by following the instructions. I turned it on when it was completed and it didn't work. Let's assume for the sake of the example that all the parts were pretested. We also kow the instructions are correct because others followed them with success. From these two facts I would have to gather that I misread the instructions or that I missed a step.

That's how I read those verses in Mark 16.
Perhaps I have missed a step in my walk with God.
Perhaps I haven't forsaken all
Perhaps I haven't taken up my cross and followed.
Do you see my point now? I believe these signs haven't ceased because God doesn't work wonders anymore...I beleive they have because we don't really believe anymore.
Do you think there is a chance that there is more to salvation than saying the sinners prayer?
Is it only a salvation based on works that follows Jesus with obediance?
Is it deception to forsake all that we might gain Christ?
Here is a scary thought...what if that is the only faith acceptable to God?

Definantly and interesting idea. I think it's untrue, but I will be looking more into the Bible's definition of faith anyways.

I wasn't dealing with your argument on tongues here...I was dealing with veiled assumption that miracles have ceased. I thought that was where you were coming from.Are you? If so you don't have one scripture that I can't deal regarding this issue. It is simply a fact that miracles are SUPPOSED to follow believers...it is a biblical hallmark of faith. I would like to discuss this issue with the scholar you said told you otherwise.
I want to see how he deals with the greek syntax in this verse. I am also curious how he deals with the fact that miracles happen all over the world today in places where the gospel is new. Are all these people deceived and only he has the truth?
Are all the people that speak in tongues deceived by the devil? I speak in tongues. I claim it is by the Holy Spirit. Who does he claim I do it by?

No, no, no. I do believe miracles still happen. I've seen several happen with my own two eyes, and have heard of many others from people I trust.

I think perhaps either you missunderstand me, or I didn't write clearly. I, and the biblical scholar I have talked with, believe that miracles do follow believers. But what I don't believe is that every single believer can speak in tongues(you appear to be in agreement with me on that).

I think I need to make my position on tongues clear. I believe that tongues do still exist. But I don't believe every single believer has the gift, though many people say otherwise. If someone speaks in tongues, I'm, for the most part, okay with that if they follow the guidlines setup in the Bible. But having been to several charismatic churches, I have realized that a lot of the so-called "speaking in tongues" done in them is fake. Yes, I believe some of it is genuine, but I believe that the majority is fake. Anyways...

osm

 

[Ben_Hur]

Here are some links where you can hear speaking in tongues.

http://home1.gte.net/evande/skeptic/tvevan.htm

Kenneth Copeland "pretending" to speak in tongues but calls someone forward to "take the mark of the beast" .. Well, that is what the website said....
http://www.revelationwebsite.co.uk/index1/word/mark.wav

If this doesn't raise the hairs on the back of your head, I don't know what will.

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-back-holy-laughter.wav

This last link came from here
http://www.threeq.com/pages/holylaughter.html

I couldn't find a real long version of speaking in tongues.

While tongues may be Biblical, I think it is overused in church. Holy laughter, on the other hand, doesn't sound like something from God. I wouldn't want God to make me do that stuff....

 

[LarrySmith]

Exactly....we are in agreement. The way you phrased certains things gave me the an invalid impression.
Praise The Lord

 

[TCapp]

[Note: I give credit to Doug Bachelor. These are his words from his Amazing Facts website. I do not agree with a lot of the things he teaches, but this happens to be one I do agree with.]

(snip)

Let's begin with a definition. The word "tongue" in the Bible simply means "a language."

God gives all the gifts of the Spirit to fill a practical need. What was the need for tongues?

Jesus told His followers, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 28:19. This command posed a problem. How could the apostles go out preaching to all the world when they spoke only one or two languages? After all, Jesus' disciples were very bright, even though most of them were not formally educated. In order to fulfill the great commission, He promised to give them a unique gift from the Holy Spirit. It was a miraculous, supernatural ability to speak foreign languages they had not formerly studied or known for the purpose of spreading the Gospel.

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; ... they shall speak with new tongues." Mark 16:17.

The fact that Jesus said these new tongues, or languages, would be a "sign" indicates that the ability to speak them would not come as the result of normal linguistic study. Rather, it would be an instantaneous gift to fluently preach in a previously unfamiliar language.

(snip)

Many of my charismatic friends would agree that the tongues spoken in the book of Acts were normal languages of the world. But they quickly add that there is a second gift-a heavenly prayer language. This gift, they say, is to express the Spirit's "groanings which cannot be uttered." Romans 8:26. The purpose, they say, is so the devil cannot understand our prayers. But nowhere are we taught to hide our prayers from the devil. He trembles when he hears Christians pray!

This doctrine of a prayer language is based mainly upon 1 Corinthians 14:14, where Paul says, "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."

They interpret this to mean that when Paul prayed in the Spirit, he used a "heavenly tongue" and did not himself know what he was praying. This theory raises an important question. How would the supplicant ever know if his prayer was answered?

So what is Paul really saying in 1 Corinthians 14:14? The problem in understanding this verse comes largely from the cumbersome translation. Please allow me to rephrase the verse in modern English: "If I pray in a language those around me do not know, I might be praying with the Spirit, but my thoughts would be unfruitful for those listening." Paul is adamant that if we pray out loud, we should either pray so others around us can understand or else keep quiet!

Notice the next few verses: "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?" 1 Corinthians 14:15,16. According to this text, who has the problem with understanding? It is the listener and not the speaker as is commonly taught. If you have ever prayed with someone who is offering a prayer in a language unknown to you, then you know what Paul meant when he said it is difficult for you to say "Amen" (meaning "so be it") at the end of the prayer. Without an interpreter, you have no idea to what you are assenting. You may have just asked a blessing on the devil as far as you can tell!

It is obvious from the context of 1 Corinthians 14 that the purpose of speaking in tongues, or foreign languages, is to communicate the gospel and thereby edify the church. If the listeners do not understand the spoken language they cannot be edified. Consequently, if there is no interpreter, the speaker is simply speaking into the air and the only ones present who know what is being said are God and himself. This is the clear meaning of the often-misquoted verse 2. "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."

Paul emphasizes again that the languages spoken need to be understood by the hearers or else the one who wants to share the mysteries of the gospel needs to sit quietly in meditation between himself and God. "So likewise ye; except ye utter by tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air." "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." Verses 9, 28. Clearly, the entire purpose of tongues is to cross language barriers and communicate the gospel!

Some have asked, "Didn't Paul say he spoke with the tongues of angels?"

No. Paul said, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels ..." 1 Corinthians 13:1, emphasis added. If you read this verse in its context, you will see that the word "though" means "even if." For example, Paul also said in verse 2, "Though I have all faith ..." He did not have all faith. And verse 3 adds, "Though I give my body to be burned ..." Paul was beheaded, not burned. So we can see that Paul here used the word "though" to mean "even if."

~~~

There's a lot more to the article... but it is long and experience suggests that it is hard to read long posts.

 

[LarrySmith]

[Note: I give credit to Doug Bachelor. These are his words from his Amazing Facts website. I do not agree with a lot of the things he teaches, but this happens to be one I do agree with.]

(snip)

Let's begin with a definition. The word "tongue" in the Bible simply means "a language."

Exactly..it can be a language that only the Spirit understands.

God gives all the gifts of the Spirit to fill a practical need. What was the need for tongues?

Jesus told His followers, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 28:19. This command posed a problem. How could the apostles go out preaching to all the world when they spoke only one or two languages?

The situation went on like this for about 1900 years. Are you saying it was only for the apostles?

After all, Jesus' disciples were very bright, even though most of them were not formally educated. In order to fulfill the great commission, He promised to give them a unique gift from the Holy Spirit. It was a miraculous, supernatural ability to speak foreign languages they had not formerly studied or known for the purpose of spreading the Gospel.

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; ... they shall speak with new tongues." Mark 16:17.

The fact that Jesus said these new tongues, or languages, would be a "sign" indicates that the ability to speak them would not come as the result of normal linguistic study.

That assumption has very little fact to back it. It fact there is far more evidence that supports my postition. In China there is a massive move of God going on. There are over a billion chinese speaking four different dialects..yet the tongues they pray in are unknown

Rather, it would be an instantaneous gift to fluently preach in a previously unfamiliar language.

(snip)

Many of my charismatic friends would agree that the tongues spoken in the book of Acts were normal languages of the world. But they quickly add that there is a second gift-a heavenly prayer language.

This is backed by scripture.

This gift, they say, is to express the Spirit's "groanings which cannot be uttered." Romans 8:26. The purpose, they say, is so the devil cannot understand our prayers.

WHAT? HaHa Who cares if the devil understands or not. There isn't much he can do about it.

But nowhere are we taught to hide our prayers from the devil. He trembles when he hears Christians pray!

This doctrine of a prayer language is based mainly upon 1 Corinthians 14:14, where Paul says, "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."

They interpret this to mean that when Paul prayed in the Spirit, he used a "heavenly tongue" and did not himself know what he was praying. This theory raises an important question. How would the supplicant ever know if his prayer was answered?

These prayers are always answered. Knowledge of their purpose isn't needed. Paul said he wanted our faith to rest in the power of God..not in the wisdom of men.

So what is Paul really saying in 1 Corinthians 14:14? The problem in understanding this verse comes largely from the cumbersome translation. Please allow me to rephrase the verse in modern English: "If I pray in a language those around me do not know, I might be praying with the Spirit, but my thoughts would be unfruitful for those listening."

BAH!...Let's examine it in greek!
If I pray in an unknown tongue it is my SPIRIT that prayeth(the greek word pneuma is used) but my understanding is unfruitful. verse 15.
What is it then? I will pray with the SPIRIT and also with the mind(noi). I will sing with the SPIRIT and also with the mind.
You have an arguement.
I have an experiance.
A man with experiance is never at a loss with a man with an argument.

This whole discourse reminds me of Tim 3:5
2 Tim 3:5-9
5 Having a form of godliness, BUT DENYING THE POWER THEROF: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 EVER LEARNING,BUT NEVER ABLE to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
KJV

Paul is adamant that if we pray out loud, we should either pray so others around us can understand or else keep quiet!

Notice the next few verses: "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?" 1 Corinthians 14:15,16. According to this text, who has the problem with understanding? It is the listener and not the speaker as is commonly taught.

This assumption is in error as I have shown above. I suggest you learn greek. It is very helpful in these matters.

If you have ever prayed with someone who is offering a prayer in a language unknown to you, then you know what Paul meant when he said it is difficult for you to say "Amen" (meaning "so be it") at the end of the prayer. Without an interpreter, you have no idea to what you are assenting. You may have just asked a blessing on the devil as far as you can tell!

It is obvious from the context of 1 Corinthians 14 that the purpose of speaking in tongues, or foreign languages, is to communicate the gospel and thereby edify the church.
If the listeners do not understand the spoken language they cannot be edified. Consequently, if there is no interpreter, the speaker is simply speaking into the air and the only ones present who know what is being said are God and himself. This is the clear meaning of the often-misquoted verse 2. "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."

Not Hardly..in fact you aren't even close. The verse means that you are speaking mysteries to God...just like it says. You have to wrest the scriptures much like cults do in order to arrive at your conclusion. The greek is very clear on this scripture

Paul emphasizes again that the languages spoken need to be understood by the hearers or else the one who wants to share the mysteries of the gospel needs to sit quietly in meditation between himself and God. "So likewise ye; except ye utter by tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air." "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." Verses 9, 28. Clearly, the entire purpose of tongues is to cross language barriers and communicate the gospel!

The greek states the opposite as I have shown!One of these days you are going to get the baptism of the Holy Spirit...I hope you speak in tongues as well.

Some have asked, "Didn't Paul say he spoke with the tongues of angels?"

No. Paul said, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels ..." 1 Corinthians 13:1, emphasis added. If you read this verse in its context, you will see that the word "though" means "even if."

WHAT?!? HaHa...that's really clutching at straws.
The greek word used here is "ean' and it means WHEN!

For example, Paul also said in verse 2, "Though I have all faith ..." He did not have all faith. And verse 3 adds, "Though I give my body to be burned ..." Paul was beheaded, not burned. So we can see that Paul here used the word "though" to mean "even if."

~~~

There's a lot more to the article... but it is long and experience suggests that it is hard to read long posts.

I agree . There are also boring..esp. if they are based on biased and unfounded presupposions.

 

[TCapp]

"One of these days you are going to get the baptism of the Holy Spirit...I hope you speak in tongues as well."

Please don't go out of your way to offend me. I do not appreciate it. I choose not to take offense, but neither do I welcome your words. That is very presumptous. I do have one of the Holy Spirit's gifts, thank you very much. One I am content with, and one I didn't ask for, but simply received.

I did speak in a different tongue [language] called Spanish. But I wasn't proficient, so it is not a gift for me. Besides, for it to be a true gift, I would have to speak it spontaneously when needed. Tongues as you define them is little more than an evangelical joy-toy, a fad, in my eyes, and I'll have nothing to do with it. It might emphasize something that has biblical merit, but it does so in an unbalanced way.

~~~

http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/theology/baptsmhs.htm

What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Let me give you a word picture that will help out. This is something that most people don't think of, and I think they get a little confused about it because they don't realize this. The word baptism is not a translation, it is a transliteration, which means that they take the Greek word, twist it a little bit and make it into an English word instead of translating it. The word adelphos means "brother." When it is translated into English you get the word brother. If it was transliterated it would say adelpho, or something like that, and you'd have to figure out it meant brother.

Baptize is the same way. The Greek word is baptizo and it's just simply adjusted for the English language. So you don't know what it means. You have to learn it's meaning somewhere else. The word baptizo is one that was used in the dye and garment industry. When they took a white shirt and dunked it into red dye, for example, the white shirt was now red, soaked with the red stuff, such that the white shirt had the property of being red, the stuff that it was just soaked in. It was characterized by that stuff. The action of plunging in and bringing out was called baptizo .

When we are baptized, there is the picture of us being dipped--in water in this case, so you see that similarity there. But when it uses the phrase "baptism of the Holy Spirit," it is not capturing just the notion of going under and coming up, it is capturing the notion of the soaking up the dye. So when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit, we are immersed in the Spirit and the Spirit is immersed in us. We get soaked with the Spirit such that we are changed, like the shirt is changed in color when it is dipped in the dye. When Paul says that we are all baptized into one Spirit, we are all made to drink of the same Spirit, he is capturing this picture in 1 Corinthians 12, I believe. He is capturing this picture of us being dunked into the Holy Spirit and soaking up the Holy Spirit. That's the picture of baptism of the Spirit.

So the baptism of the Spirit is when the believer gets the Spirit. It becomes a part of him and fully identified with Him so much so that you don't even distinguish the red dye from the shirt anymore. The shirt is red because it is soaked with the red dye, and we are Christians because we are soaked with the Spirit. At that time of being baptized, the Bible uses different terminology to describe what is going on. It says in Ephesians 1 and 4 that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, we have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, we have drunk of the Spirit. Lots of different language to identify the same thing.
So what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is and this is a very important distinction, it is not the manifestation of any particular gift. It is the reception of the Spirit which becomes part of us at the time of salvation. That's my belief.

Now many people use the phrase "baptism of the Spirit" as synonymous with receiving the gift of tongues. They make a distinction with being baptized in the Holy Spirit from baptized with the Holy Spirit--as one is receiving the Holy Spirit and one is getting the gift of tongues. I think the terminology is confused and causes problems. I don't think it is accurate. Baptism with, in, of, whatever the Holy Spirit is receiving the Holy Spirit, then there is a manifestation of the Spirit in the Christian's life of certain gifts. One of those gifts might be the gift of tongues, and we see strong manifestations of those gifts around Pentecost, although we also see manifestations of the gift of prophecy and powerful witnessing and other miraculous happenings that the Scripture identifies as being a result, not of the baptism, but of the filling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[LarrySmith]

"One of these days you are going to get the baptism of the Holy Spirit...I hope you speak in tongues as well."

Please don't go out of your way to offend me. I do not appreciate it. I choose not to take offense, but neither do I welcome your words.

This wasn't meant as an offense for this I apoligise

That is very presumptous. I do have one of the Holy Spirit's gifts, thank you very much. One I am content with, and one I didn't ask for, but simply received.

What gift would that be? Please tell me.

I did speak in a different tongue [language] called Spanish. But I wasn't proficient, so it is not a gift for me. Besides, for it to be a true gift, I would have to speak it spontaneously when needed. Tongues as you define them is little more than an evangelical joy-toy, a fad, in my eyes, and I'll have nothing to do with it. It might emphasize something that has biblical merit, but it does so in an unbalanced way.

You are very ignorant of a great many things. It is your position that is in error

~~~

http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/theology/baptsmhs.htm

What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Let me give you a word picture that will help out.

PLEASE! I have been a christian almost as long as you have been alive. I am not in need of a verbal description...perhaps you didn't read my post when I said I have experienced the Baptism in fullness. Now you are offending an elder brother..as well as trying to instruct him.

This is something that most people don't think of, and I think they get a little confused about it because they don't realize this. The word baptism is not a translation, it is a transliteration, which means that they take the Greek word, twist it a little bit and make it into an English word instead of translating it.
The word adelphos means "brother." When it is translated into English you get the word brother. If it was transliterated it would say adelpho, or something like that, and you'd have to figure out it meant brother.

Baptize is the same way. The Greek word is baptizo and it's just simply adjusted for the English language. So you don't know what it means. You have to learn it's meaning somewhere else. The word baptizo is one that was used in the dye and garment industry. When they took a white shirt and dunked it into red dye, for example, the white shirt was now red, soaked with the red stuff, such that the white shirt had the property of being red, the stuff that it was just soaked in. It was characterized by that stuff. The action of plunging in and bringing out was called baptizo .

When we are baptized, there is the picture of us being dipped--in water in this case, so you see that similarity there. But when it uses the phrase "baptism of the Holy Spirit," it is not capturing just the notion of going under and coming up, it is capturing the notion of the soaking up the dye. So when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit, we are immersed in the Spirit and the Spirit is immersed in us. We get soaked with the Spirit such that we are changed, like the shirt is changed in color when it is dipped in the dye. When Paul says that we are all baptized into one Spirit, we are all made to drink of the same Spirit, he is capturing this picture in 1 Corinthians 12, I believe. He is capturing this picture of us being dunked into the Holy Spirit and soaking up the Holy Spirit. That's the picture of baptism of the Spirit.

Do you think I'm not aware of this? I fail to see how this information supports your point.

So the baptism of the Spirit is when the believer gets the Spirit. It becomes a part of him and fully identified with Him so much so that you don't even distinguish the red dye from the shirt anymore. The shirt is red because it is soaked with the red dye, and we are Christians because we are soaked with the Spirit. At that time of being baptized, the Bible uses different terminology to describe what is going on. It says in Ephesians 1 and 4 that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, we have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, we have drunk of the Spirit.

It doesn't say anything in that verse except that we are sealed...it then goes on to say what the seal is. The "earnest" of our inheritance. The word earnest is "arabon" in greek. It means down payment.

Lots of different language to identify the same thing.
So what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is and this is a very important distinction, it is not the manifestation of any particular gift.

When it happens you will manifest the FRUIT of the Spirit for sure. The gifts are God decided options

It is the reception of the Spirit which becomes part of us at the time of salvation. That's my belief.

Now many people use the phrase "baptism of the Spirit" as synonymous with receiving the gift of tongues.

I don't. The scripture says by thier FRUIT you will know them.

They make a distinction with being baptized in the Holy Spirit from baptized with the Holy Spirit--as one is receiving the Holy Spirit and one is getting the gift of tongues. I think the terminology is confused and causes problems. I don't think it is accurate. Baptism with, in, of, whatever the Holy Spirit is receiving the Holy Spirit, then there is a manifestation of the Spirit in the Christian's life of certain gifts. One of those gifts might be the gift of tongues, and we see strong manifestations of those gifts around Pentecost, although we also see manifestations of the gift of prophecy and powerful witnessing and other miraculous happenings that the Scripture identifies as being a result, not of the baptism, but of the filling of the Holy Spirit.

There are several examples in Acts of gifts being manifest after the Holy Spirit fell .

Acts 10:44-46
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. NKJV

We can prove this was The Baptism by Peter's defense here:
NKJV
Acts 11:15-17
16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"
NKJV

They clearly spoke with tongues after the baptism. It doesn't say a word about them preaching the gospel in tongues.

 

[TCapp]

I have the gift of discerning spirits. Thanks for the apology and the reply, but I think I'll go my seperate way. I'll never understand why folks get hung up on this one little issue, and act like it's bigger than life. It's too frustrating, and I do not wish to get worked up about it, or get others worked up about it.

As far as I'm concerned, tongues mean different languages. Nothing else. You are entitled to your views, of course, and I wish you well with it. Good day.

 

[Lotar]

I have the gift of discerning spirits. Thanks for the apology and the reply, but I think I'll go my seperate way. I'll never understand why folks get hung up on this one little issue, and act like it's bigger than life. It's too frustrating, and I do not wish to get worked up about it, or get others worked up about it.

As far as I'm concerned, tongues mean different languages. Nothing else. You are entitled to your views, of course, and I wish you well with it. Good day.

One thing I notice is that Charismatic types get offended and defensive when you try to discuss theology with them. Most likely because they realize how weak their arguement is.

Good posts though

 

[LarrySmith]

One thing I notice is that Charismatic types get offended and defensive when you try to discuss theology with them. Most likely because they realize how weak their arguement is.

Good posts though

If you think my arguement is weak after what I just posted you cannot read. I used the original language and syntax to back my interpretatation of the scriptures in question. I would like to see you post some scripture to back your postion.Tcapp bowed out and made excuses when it was clear he couldn't justify his position with scripture.Perhaps you ..in your great knowledge could enlighten me? You must use scripture to clearly and sharply define your postion...not some ambigious claim like" oh thier postion is so weak"
PROVE IT.

I'm tired of christians blaming cessation for the fact that they don't have power. The fact of the matter is ..if we would obey Jesus we would have power. We have been decieved by a false gospel that claims that are rightousness is only positional and that it cannot be experienced to perfection. Just admit that you have beliefs that don't need scripture to back them. I back up everything I say with the Word of God.

 

[Lotar]

If you think my arguement is weak after what I just posted you cannot read. I used the original language and syntax to back my interpretatation of the scriptures in question. I would like to see you post some scripture to back your postion.Tcapp bowed out and made excuses when it was clear he couldn't justify his position with scripture.Perhaps you ..in your great knowledge could enlighten me? You must use scripture to clearly and sharply define your postion...not some ambigious claim like" oh thier postion is so weak"
PROVE IT.

I'm tired of christians blaming cessation for the fact that they don't have power. The fact of the matter is ..if we would obey Jesus we would have power. We have been decieved by a false gospel that claims that are rightousness is only positional and that it cannot be experienced to perfection. Just admit that you have beliefs that don't need scripture to back them. I back up everything I say with the Word of God.

Yes, I did read your posts. If you wish to debate the issue with me, step over to the IDD or the PRE, the issue has been gone over there more than a few times already.

 

[onajourney87]

What do you(LarrySmith, and anyone else I guess) believe happens at the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Is a person indwelt with the Holy Spirit(aka: do they receive the Holy Spirit)? Are spiritual gifts given then? Or are just more given then, than when someone becomes a Christian? Or do they "start working" then? When does/can this event take place? Right when someone becomes a Christian? A few days after? A few hours after? Months? Years?

I am interested in answers to these questions, as I have never been able in the past to get answers about them. I'm often told, "read Acts, everything you need to know is in there". Well, I've read Acts. And I have come out of it with several different possible sets of answers to those questions. One I believe however is inaccurate due to other verses... anyways...

osm

 

[endure]

uhhh ill just say this...not attacking anyone, but being totally honest becuase ive done this before.

say this conversation happened

person number 1.
....(why do peopl get offensive? its probly becuase their argument is weak, since it probly would be anyway, since im the one that knows the truth)
person number 2.
...(if you think my argument is weak then try to prove it wrong, BAH!)

both of those people are in for a fall. i know from experience.
if a person is wrong it is never a time to be glad or laugh, it is a time to be sincere, sincerety, honesty and true compassion are the only things that help people. becuase it doesnt matter how wrong a person is, if they feel attacked they will naturally back off and you wont change them.
and if the purpose is to prove them wrong and not so much change them, then the one who is right is still wrong.
if you dont honestly love someone and have compassion on them, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CORRECT THEM.

you have to come humbly into correction of others, considering yourself and the faults that can almost be guaranteed at all times to be in you.
you should never laugh or mock or scorn or arrogantly dismiss someone for being wrong. you were once wrong too, and it is nothing but grace that changed that.
God corrects, not you. and if you speak in the name of God, you have to take extra specail care to act a certain way so that you dont allow people to be get distracted from God and see you in all your glory instead.
things like "haha" and "bah" tend to do that.

i believe any person who is truely honest with themselves will not go into any debate simply convinced that they will win every trading of words, becuase if you are honest with yourself and really walking with God, you know he corrects you and changes you quite often, so why are you so confident in what you beleive on every issue?
i know my confidence in debate is not what it used to be concerning some issues. in some, ill never back down and i know what im talking about, but in some, i have to be real and abmit it when i really dont know. now i tread much lighter.


about the recent posts.
something that i think has been missed by some people is this part of
1 cor 14.2
"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."

i think the point still stands, that no this tongue does not need to be interpretted becuase he "speaketh not unto men" anyway.
he said it is true yes you can speak in tongues when people can hear it and not understand, yet even at that time it isnt to people, but to God, so why does it need to be intepretted? it isnt to men anyway, it would not benefit them at all.
so i beleive it is clearly saying that no, just becuase people dont understand it, and just becuase it isnt interpretted, doesnt mean its not God.
and the tongues of angels, i agree it could mean "even if" and not that he did. but we have no reason to believe that he didnt, and the point still stands that it could happen.

osmaker
sorry i havent replied yet.
and ive only seen one of your replies to my latest reply besides this one if you gave me more.
but about that one of yours that i saw.
no i do not believe it means just apostles then, i am actually kinda leaning toward your understanding of that scripture now, but i still firmly beleive that even if he was speaking to a certain person or persons, it still doesnt change that i believe the point was on BELIEVING, not who he was speaking to.
im going to study this some more and reply to you later i think.
i will be honest and say that now i see that no i dont know this subject as well as i thought i did, thankyou.

about what i said about billy graham.
no i do not believe you have to beleive for miracles or tongues in order to be saved, but i dont beleive it means that if you believe in simply being saved that tongues and miracles will come too.
the disciples tried cast a demon out in the context of scripture that i quoted to you earlier and Jesus said the disciples could not do that because they did not believe. and i believe they did have a certain level of faith to receive somethings in faith becuase they were surprised that it didnt happen, and wondered why it didnt happen, they did have a level of faith, but not faith for this, which maybe wasnt apparant in their feelings, but it was apparent in the life of the demon possessed boy who was still very bound.
and if they had to have more than just salvation faith to do this,
why does it change for those who get saved under the authority of the scripture from mark? why do they simply not have to believe anymore?

and for your last questions in your last post in this last page that you said havent ever been aswered, i think i may be able to, atleast from what i do know i am surely willing to try.


1.what happens at the baptism of the holyspirit?
i dont know everything that happens, but i do know this that you are immersed down into and beneath the surface of the holyspirit, which is what being "baptised means". no i dont believe this alone is the point of entry of the holyspirit into a persons life, becuase the bible says you have the spirit "in" you, he can "fill" you, and he can "baptise" you.
and i believe all 3 are expressions of 3 diffrent experiences with the holyghost.
being baptised with the holyghost isnt getting saved or the first time the holyghost enteres you, but i do beleive it the greatest and most power experience you can have with him, that i know of or that i recall from the bible.


2. is the holyspirit dwelling in us?
this is a very tricky theological issue for me, since i dont believe the bible supports God being in all places at once, but rather he is in one place.
so what i believe the bible means by the holyspirit or Jesus living INSIDE OF US, probly wont go over very well with you.
hehe, if you really want to know what i think, ask me one day.
but this one debate i dont like to get into anymore, so please to begin it again, unless you can quote me diffrent scriptures than everyone else does and say something diffrent than everyone else does, becuase i dont find those things proof enough to dissolve the reasons i have to believe that he is not everywhere.
lets leave this one alone. some people seem to think ive betrayed God or hurt his feelings becuase i dont think he is everywhere.


3.Are spiritual gifts given at the point of baptism in the holyghost?
i say no.
can they be? yes. but are they by default? no.
the bible records many many people do things that are named in the 8 gifts of the spirit when we know they were not baptised in the holyghost.
Jesus said the foundation for receiving all we want in prayer, and doing all great wonders in the name of Jesus, WAS ON FAITH.
and you do not have to baptised in the holyghost to have faith, becuase it is faith that saves you before you are baptised in the holyghost. we know that the disciples cast out demons etc before they were ever baptised in the holyghost in their own missions into villages preaching the gospel before Jesus ever died, they had great faith to receive things from God even without the baptism in the holyghost.

i dont believe their is a diffrence between having a "gift of the spirit" of healing, and praying to be healed through faith and being healed, though i understand i cant prove that.
but i believe all the gifts of the spirit can be acted on through faith, before you are ever baptised in the holyghost, becuase Jesus said you could get anything you asked of him and do anything in his name through faith alone, he didnt say you had be baptised in the holyghost first.

oh and yes i do think you can be baptised in the holyghost and not receive any of the gifts if you dont have faith enough.


4.When does/can this event take place? Right when someone becomes a Christian? A few days after? A few hours after? Months? Years?

i dont believe their is any definite time or place.
i believe it depends on the persons faith and prayers.
i was saved for a long time and had to go through a process before i ever spoke in tongues.
and i know of people who have been saved and began to speak in tongues instantly.


oh, someone mentioned having the gift of discernment.
my pastor said something interesting about that once...
why is it that when many people claim to have the gift of discernment all the see are devils and lies and wrongs?
ya know there are 3 times as many good angels as there are bad angels?
why are bad angels and spirits of evil the only ones being seen then?
thats not discernment, thats being critical.
ive never heard any claiming to discern that a good angel with a good blessing was present, never have.
all ive ever heard is "i discern pride!" i discern sin! etc.

i once met a person who claimed to have the gift of discernment, but i later found out that she was one of the most prideful, insecure, arrogant, people i have ever met, and boy she knew how to hold a grudge, and she was quick to use that gift of discernment to show why people were wrong when they didnt go her way.

 

[LarrySmith]

uhhh ill just say this...not attacking anyone, but being totally honest becuase ive done this before.

say this conversation happened

person number 1.
....(why do peopl get offensive? its probly becuase their argument is weak, since it probly would be anyway, since im the one that knows the truth)
person number 2.
...(if you think my argument is weak then try to prove it wrong, BAH!)

both of those people are in for a fall. i know from experience.
.

You know from experience? How much experience could you possible have?
You are 21 years old. I have been a christian for 21 years.

It has been my experience that people get offensive for two reasons
1) They are only trying to win a debate and care little for coming to the truth. Jesus offended hyprocrites with his revelation and doctrine. Your pseudo-spiritual comment lacks validity.

2) God is dealing with them on the issue and they are having a struggle. They refuse to listen to what scripture says ..even when thier arguments have been dealt with.

I asked him to prove his point for several reasons.
He claimed my argument was weak without backing that statement with evidence.
It isn't offensive to request proof when someone makes outlandish claims.
His comment is off the wall. I can parse every scripture in greek that I used.

I don't believe the Holy Spirit is grieved with my statements.
I will let him be the judge.

I have found that most people with "discerning of spirits" really have the gift of judging others.
I attack deceptive ideas and concepts...not people. If someone's identity is attached to that deception then they will get offended. There isn't any way out of it.
I stand by my statement .
He said my argument was weak...let him PROVE it.

 

[TCapp]

Tcapp bowed out and made excuses when it was clear he [sic] couldn't justify his [sic] position with scripture.

Sir, you try being a perpetually exhausted mother of 2.5 [read: pregnant], and see how inclined you are into getting into an argument you didn't start. "Excuses" indeed. I was merely replying to the OP, and you are the one picking apart my post and beliefs and spoiling for a fight. I have neither the energy, patience, or training to get into it. This isn't the appropriate thread for arguing about it anyway. If you really want to tear someone apart, go to a thread specifically about it. Go pick on somebody your own size and stop bullying me around and degrading me. An increase in age apparently doesn't mean greater tactfulness. If you treat a sister Christian this way, I'd hate to see how you treat others.

i once met a person who claimed to have the gift of discernment, but i later found out that she was one of the most prideful, insecure, arrogant, people i have ever met, and boy she knew how to hold a grudge, and she was quick to use that gift of discernment to show why people were wrong when they didnt go her way.

It's too bad you've had that experience. In my case, I rarely tell anyone about my gift. I keep it purely to myself, and I am very reluctant to talk about it with anyone. It is a private thing. Nor do I use it in the manner you describe. I say this to warn you against painting folks with a broad brush.

 

[LarrySmith]

Yes, I did read your posts. If you wish to debate the issue with me, step over to the IDD or the PRE, the issue has been gone over there more than a few times already.

I'll be happy to debate the issue any place or time. I strongly doubt if you will raise any issues that I haven't dealt with countless times however. I'm not being haughty or proud..it just that your position is in ERROR. The scripture is quite clear in it's inflection and syntax in greek concerning this issue. I ask first that you clearly state your position to eliminate any confusion about what it is you believe.
My position on the issue is clear from these posts.
You however just jumped into the fray and shot an arrow like "The charismatic position is SO weak" without ANY scripture to back you up. THEN when I challenge you ...suddenly this isn't the proper forum!
Post a thread and send me a link to it..I may miss it otherwise.


Now....for my offended sister.

Sir, you try being a perpetually exhausted mother of 2.5 [read: pregnant], and see how inclined you are into getting into an argument you didn't start.

I wasn't aware of this situation with your children but for the record I didn't start this debate either. I simply defended what I believe. If I am wrong and someone shows me this from the scripture I CHANGE. Jesus said blessed is he who is not offended in me.

"Excuses" indeed. I was merely replying to the OP, and you are the one picking apart my post and beliefs and spoiling for a fight. I have neither the energy, patience, or training to get into it. This isn't the appropriate thread for arguing about it anyway. If you really want to tear someone apart, go to a thread specifically about it. Go pick on somebody your own size and stop bullying me around and degrading me.

You take a challenge to your beliefs as a personel attack. That is not the case. If I am deceived then I want to KNOW!. I am not "spoiling for a fight"
I am seeking the truth.
I am not bullying you. I was defending what I believe God's word is saying. It was Ok for you to attack MY beliefs. it was ok for you to pick apart MY posts. When it didn't go as you planned you get all mad at me. I was never angry with you. If an idea or concept is challenged is that a personal attack? You say that you don't have the energy, patience or time to respond to my ideas...yet you sure have all three in plenty when it comes to attacking me. You also seemed to have the time when you though you could prove my postion wrong.
I agree with your point about this not being the proper forum for debate. I have expressed this concern myself in past posts. If I failed to respond to the post however only one side of the picture would have been seen. You posted to this thread BEFORE me remember? I was merely responding to what you said.

Who is angry here? Not me.

An increase in age time and to and and and and to the new apparently doesn't mean greater tactfulness. If you treat a sister Christian this way, I'd hate to see how you treat others.


It's too bad you've had that experience. In my case, I rarely tell anyone about my gift. I keep it purely to myself, and I am very reluctant to talk about it with anyone. It is a private thing. Nor do I use it in the manner you describe. I say this to warn you against painting folks with a broad brush.

There are some people who get offended no matter how much tact is used. Jesus meet the same oppostion in dealing with the Pharisees(And no...I'm not calling you a pharisee). We sometimes get so wound up in a belief that we get offended if it is dealt with in any manner.

I admire the gentile woman who came to Jesus seeking a healing for her daughter. Jesus told her that it wasn't proper to tske the children's bread and give it to the dogs. This lady WASN'T offended! Would you rebuke Jesus for a lack of tact concerning this issue?

I wasn't attacking your gift. I don't really know you tcapp. I was making a simple observation. I have seen people with the "gift of decernment" go around judging people and saying they had demons. I never said I saw you do that.

 

[SAVEVERYONE]

Hi all my beautiful friends, you do know no matter what you say to me , I will always love you the same...Those here who have asked Jesus to come into there hearts have the Holy Spirit in them, Jesus is the Holy Spirit, God Bless Just wanted all you awesome children of God to know that.......Peace out
smile it could be worse

 

[katylees]

i agree 'saveveryone'

 

[LarrySmith]

Acts 19:1-2
19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
KJV