I just don't *want* to believe!

[dysert]

having already arrived at a philosophical viewpoint that I am comfortable with.

Which is doubtless what most Christians would say - myself included.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Tbh, I don't know if my belief system is rational / reasonable, but it doesn't matter to me

Wow....

At least you are being honest about that.

So to you, it matters not whether or not what you believe is reasonable or rational. Cool.
I do care. A lot.

And actually, I think I'm being intellectually honest with myself to admit that I don't want to believe some of the stuff I mentioned in the OP.

No, that's just being honest about your beliefs.
To be intellectually honest, you actually need to care about the rationality / reasonableness of your beliefs.

I see it as finding lost keys. If you lost your keys, you search for them. But after you've found them you don't keep searching. I've found what I believe to be true, so I don't need to keep searching. In fact, I'm not even interested in searching further.

The difference is that your keys demonstrably exist.
Another difference is that you haven't actually found anything in real life.
What you found, is just a set of beliefs that you like.

As you said yourself, you don't actually care if the beliefs are justified. You just like them.

It's like a person diagnosed with cancer saying "I don't like that. So I'll go ahead and believe that I don't have cancer". That person won't get treated, since (s)he choose to believe that (s)he is healthy. As a result, the person will die an unnecessary death.

 

[pitabread]

Which is doubtless what most Christians would say - myself included.

This is why I believe that we all have our own journeys and therefore won't all necessarily arrive at the same destination. But each journey is our own to take and no one else's.

 

[pitabread]

The REALITY of God, or what you call the proof (sign) of Him to you, is what you have walked in and through every day of your life, but still the fact remains, you cannot acknowledge Him as the architect of your reality.

Once again this falls under the "believe and then you'll believe" form of circular reasoning. It's not a compelling argument.

 

[dysert]

This is why I believe that we all have our own journeys and therefore won't all necessarily arrive at the same destination. But each journey is our own to take and no one else's.

We agree on this - that people won't arrive at the same destination.

 

[Kylie]

I've been thinking a lot about the whole evolution/creation thing and as a result I recently learned something about myself. I was thinking, even if someone could 100% prove to me that there was a moment in the past where nothing became something, and even if someone could 100% prove to me that there was a moment in the past where non-life gave rise to life, and even if someone could 100% prove to me that irreducible complexity is not an issue with evolution, etc., the fact of the matter is, I still wouldn't accept the theories being taught by the evolutionists. Why? Because I simply don't want to believe it.

This realization has made me wonder if there might be others (on either side of the fence) who refuse to believe something just because they don't want to? Since it's true for me, I imagine it's true for others, too. (It's rather liberating to learn something about yourself.)

Do you think this is a reasonable position to have?

 

[dysert]

Do you think this is a reasonable position to have?

I don't know if it's reasonable or not.

 

[Ophiolite]

I see it as finding lost keys. If you lost your keys, you search for them. But after you've found them you don't keep searching. I've found what I believe to be true, so I don't need to keep searching. In fact, I'm not even interested in searching further.

Let's suppose that the keys you lost are the keys for your house. You cannot simply declare, "Aha! I have found the keys. All is well. I can stop searching." Any rational person would now go to test the keys, to ensure they were the correct keys.

But wait, I quite forgot, you are a self-declared irrational person. You have no need to find out if these are the correct keys. You believe. That is enough.You can sit back, relax and pretend that when you get home they will undeniably open the door.

This position does not, I'm reasonably sure, count as insanity, but it surely counts as monumentally foolish, self-deceiving and ultimately, pathetic [in the formal sense of the word, not the colloquial].

 

[dysert]

Let's suppose that the keys you lost are the keys for your house. You cannot simply declare, "Aha! I have found the keys. All is well. I can stop searching." Any rational person would now go to test the keys, to ensure they were the correct keys.

But wait, I quite forgot, you are a self-declared irrational person. You have no need to find out if these are the correct keys. You believe. That is enough.You can sit back, relax and pretend that when you get home they will undeniably open the door.

This position does not, I'm reasonably sure, count as insanity, but it surely counts as monumentally foolish, self-deceiving and ultimately, pathetic [in the formal sense of the word, not the colloquial].

I don't think I ever declared myself to be irrational. I think I've said that I don't know if my position is rational (or reasonable) or not.

Secondly, in my example of the lost key, the assumption is that when I found the key I knew it to be the right one so there's no need to go test it immediately.

 

[Ophiolite]

I don't think I ever declared myself to be irrational. I think I've said that I don't know if my position is rational (or reasonable) or not.

I can help you out there: it is irrational and completely unreasonable. (Unless you really prefer to lie to yourself, then it is irrational, but arguably reasonable.)

Secondly, in my example of the lost key, the assumption is that when I found the key I knew it to be the right one so there's no need to go test it immediately.

But the reason you knew it to be the right one is that you wanted it to be the right one. That is not a reasonable assumption.

 

[dysert]

I can help you out there: it is irrational and completely unreasonable. (Unless you really prefer to lie to yourself, then it is irrational, but arguably reasonable.)

But the reason you knew it to be the right one is that you wanted it to be the right one. That is not a reasonable assumption.

Thanks for trying to help, but you did say that I self-identified as being irrational, and I didn't. Furthermore, just because you claim something to be irrational and unreasonable doesn't make it so.

As for the key, I knew it was the right one because I have my keys marked. (But the key thing is just a hypothetical example anyway, so it really doesn't matter.)

 

[Ophiolite]

Thanks for trying to help, but you did say that I self-identified as being irrational, and I didn't. Furthermore, just because you claim something to be irrational and unreasonable doesn't make it so.

I was certainly not intending to put words in your mouth, but the self-declaration was implicit in your description of your behaviour.

I completely agree that a simple claim on my part is meaningless. However, that is not was I offered. You behaviour and position are a text-book example of irrational behaviour. It is irrational by definition. Of course, you are free to disbelieve that, as it would be in line with your philosophy, but in rejecting the observation you would be simultaneously confirming the diagnosis.

It is probable that we shall never have a meeting of minds on this one. I shall just reflect that, given the difficulty of understanding the thinking of some of our fellow humans, we stand almost no chance of meaningful communications if we ever encounter aliens.

 

[VirOptimus]

Not accepting physical reality because of some religious idea is stupid.

 

[dysert]

I was certainly not intending to put words in your mouth, but the self-declaration was implicit in your description of your behaviour.

I completely agree that a simple claim on my part is meaningless. However, that is not was I offered. You behaviour and position are a text-book example of irrational behaviour. It is irrational by definition. Of course, you are free to disbelieve that, as it would be in line with your philosophy, but in rejecting the observation you would be simultaneously confirming the diagnosis.

It is probable that we shall never have a meeting of minds on this one. I shall just reflect that, given the difficulty of understanding the thinking of some of our fellow humans, we stand almost no chance of meaningful communications if we ever encounter aliens.

Are you a professional psychiatrist or psychologist? If so, then I'd have to consider your "diagnosis". If not, it's just so many words. (Eloquent, but meaningless nonetheless.) The dictionary defines "irrational" as:
(1) : not endowed with reason or understanding
(2) : lacking usual or normal mental clarity or coherence

Given that, I don't see how my (lack of) desire to believe something fits. Hence, my position is not a "textbook" case of irrationality. (Hmm, I might have to reconsider my position to be rational after all!)

You're probably right that we'll never have a meeting of the minds on this point. I don't believe the nonsense alluded to in the OP, and furthermore I don't want to believe it. I don't understand why that seems to bother some people. (Oh, and I don't believe aliens exist either - but oddly, I'm not opposed to believing it.)

 

[dysert]

Not accepting physical reality because of some religious idea is stupid.

I accept physical reality. I also accept spiritual reality. I suspect you could not say the same. (Please refer to my sig.) And how did this get to be about accepting physical reality anyway? The premise of the thread is that I don't want to believe nonsense, and it so happens that I don't believe nonsense.

 

[VirOptimus]

I accept physical reality. I also accept spiritual reality. I suspect you could not say the same. (Please refer to my sig.) And how did this get to be about accepting physical reality anyway? The premise of the thread is that I don't want to believe nonsense, and it so happens that I don't believe nonsense.

Not accepting science is denying physical reality.

 

[dysert]

Not accepting science is denying physical reality.

Well, I don't accept the premise that science is identical with physical reality. Nor have I said that I don't accept physical reality. Furthermore, I *have* said that I accept there is more to reality than science can measure (but science's own admission).

 

[VirOptimus]

Well, I don't accept the premise that science is identical with physical reality. Nor have I said that I don't accept physical reality. Furthermore, I *have* said that I accept there is more to reality than science can measure (but science's own admission).

Science describes physical reality, no more, no less. Invoking magic do you no favours.

 

[dysert]

Science describes physical reality, no more, no less. Invoking magic do you no favours.

If "invoking magic" is what you call reality beyond what can be measured, then science is rather myopic.

 

[VirOptimus]

If "invoking magic" is what you call reality beyond what can be measured, then science is rather myopic.

Science is a method we use to describe physical reality. It cant do other things, thats not myopic.