I have a question for you all....and I come in peace

[Philip]

Ok now you all are really throwing me off here part of the doctrines that we do go by have been established by the Papacy

Here is a point on which we disagree. We do not believe that any doctrine is established by the Papacy. The entire Faith was handed down once for all. The Church has met in council to condemn heresy, but she has never changed doctrine.

....and have remained in effect and sound ...so then why have a problem with it? I am so totally confused....From the current studies I have done so far nothing the Pope has said was ever without Biblical backing especially when it came ot doctrinal issues. Am I missing something here?????

We disagree with your interpretation of the Scriptures.

Help again.....So IOWs if He wasn't calling himself the Vicar then it would be OK am I correct?

The title "Vicar of Christ" is not the problem, just a symptom of the problem.

On one hand you are telling me that the Church is wrong and then on the other you say it is right too....

I don't believe any Orthodox would say the Church is wrong. Perhaps you misunderstood.

you just used the same argument that we use to prove the validity of the Church by saying that because it has withstood the test of time and still stands and because it has reamined sound in it's Teachings that it is the True Church. Ok I am baffled.....

There is a difference: As we see it, we maintain the same Faith we always have. We have not added dogmas to it.

 

[Oblio]

On one hand you are telling me that the Church is wrong and then on the other you say it is right too

When we say The Church, we mean the Holy Orthodox Church. Unfortunately, this does not include the Western Church of Rome post-Schism.

 

[Basil]

According to the Orthodox the papacy has not preserved dogmas that have been always taught, everywhere, and by all. There are signs, at least that we would see, that the papacy has introduced faulty dogmas such as: adding the filioque clause to the Nicene Creed (Holy Spririt proceeds from the Father AND THE SON), the immaculate conception of Mary, original sin, the infallibility of the pope , and the church governance headed by a pope itself. Please don't take offense debiwebi, this is just our position, not meant to offend or hurt anyone.

These, to us, further indicate that the Roman church has been corrupted and has continued to deteriorate throughout time, which led to the Protestant revolt againt the Roman Church. The fact that the Roman church is the largest body of Christians on the planet means little. The Roman church was part of all the great imperial nations for a long time which helped it spread farther and more quickly than Orthodoxy.

In the Great Schism (1054 A.D.), the Orthodox believe the Roman pontiff was in error in taking the first action of excommunicating the Patriarch of Constantiople. In response anthema of the Roman Patriarch was delcared by all four of the Orthodox Patriachs at that time (Constantinople, Antioch, Jerulsalem, and Alexandria). The Patriarchs were all equal in rank. Four maintained unity, the Roman Patriarch departed on a long road that has led us to this forum today to talk about this.

 

[Debi1967]

It is not about making decisions. It is about observing the life of the Church. We look to see the Faith that has been believed always, everywhere, and by all. No one can change the Faith. Not bishops. Not the laity. The Church as a whole is the pillar and support of the Truth.

But you know this is what I advocate always as well. Exemplifying the life of Christ and living the way He lived. That is what we are taught through His teachings. I am forever posting on this I am sure you have seen me post on this especially you philip. This is not the first time we have talked although not directly to each tother...but we have been in many debates with each other and been on the same side. per se at least....The Church itself is infallible not the people running it....Although we believe that because of the succession of the Pope His Teachings on certain matters are infallible because they are coming from the Holy Spirit. They are to be respected as such...but the man is fallible. Ok just like the the men used to write the Bible were fallible but the Words they wrote were infallible...do you see the difference?

I would prefer that we follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit keeps and guides the Church. Look at the Council of Jerusalem:

Act 15:28a For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us...​

The Council (which included St Peter) acts a whole through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Yes but again why were the Keys to His Church only handed to Peter not to the others? That would make Him the head of the Church would it not?

Perhaps you could give an example of one of these decisions. It is likely that we see the process differently. For example, we don't believe that the Council of Nicea decided that Christ is God. Rather, we believe that the Council confirmed that the belief that Christ is God is the Apostolic Faith that has always been believed.

Ok again you need to help me with this one because with my lack of proper knowledge in this area when I read it I did not see that but then I am only looking at it from one viewpoint as well...So maybe something in the wording of it did not stick out to me or I wasn't be observant for it. It was one of my homework assignments from KennySe when I first started I had to read it.

This seems to contradict what you said earlier. You stated before that decisions should be made by the more educated. Now, you state that we must decided for ourselves if their decisions are valid. If you decided that one of their decisions is invalid, do you reject it? If you can reject it, then what was the point of having them make a decision in the first place? Aren't you deciding what is valid on your own anyway?

Notice that I said Accurate knowledge.....So No I did not contradict myself, if there is something that is bothering me about something that is said then it is my obligation and duty to aquire that accurate knowledge of it to be able to make the choice. That is every Christian's duty.....

Now hopefully this will post and it will not page fault on me ...OOOH I getting fustrated with this ....I am on a cable modem this shouldn't be happening
Erwin really needs more servers.......My next thread is in suggestions bugs and help

 

[Photini]

sorry all I seem to be having a problem with the CF servers again.....

Photini,
If we leave these decisions up to the laity as a whole then you would have those that know very little on things making important decisions for the Church ....for some reason this doesn't seem like a very good idea to me.
I would much prefer those that well educated in these matters making those important Church decisions. At least then I know that they are coming from accurate knowledge. At least then I know too that they are not being influenced by outside agendas...and are being kept true to any outside influences....the more you have influencing a situation the less control and more chaos it can create especially when people are not qualified to make the decisions because of not having a proper and full understanding.

.

THe problem with supposing that we have a geographical or administrative center that cannot err, is that we are fostering to the passions of fallen man and his insecurities. It is relying on our own logic and intellect to assure us of truth. The only Truth is that which extends from a life in the Holy Trinity, and that Truth asserts it's authority by it's presence.
In the Holy Trinity, you do not see one Person taking isolated or individual initiative. The Father does nothing without the Son, and the Son does nothing without the Father, and the Holy Spirit does not speak on His own authority, "but what He hears, He speaks." You could say that nothing is done without "holding a meeting", so to speak. So it is with the Church. There is no individual authority given to any jurisdiction or Patriarch of the Church. There is no need for it.

I mentioned before in another thread, that the description which I just mentioned (I paraphrased from Hymn of Entry by Arch. Vasilieos) brought to my mind the Icon of the Hospitality of Abraham...you know, the one with the three Angels at the table. THis is an Icon of the Holy Trinity...which now as I look on those Angels sitting together at the table, I also see in my mind our Church in Unity and in perfect harmony...no one exalting himself above the others or seeking more power or authority.

I echo what was posted above, to avoid confusion....when I speak of the Church, I am speaking of the Holy Orthodox Church.

 

[Photini]

Sorry, if my post is confusing. I'm not so good at getting across what I'm trying to...


Here's the Icon: (it's kind of blurry...I messed it up a few days ago when I was trying to resize it.)

 

[Debi1967]

According to an the Orthodox the papacy has not preserved dogmas that have been always taught, everywhere, and by all. There are signs, at least that we would see, that the papacy has introduced faulty dogmas such as: adding the filioque clause to the Nicene Creed (Holy Spririt proceeds from the Father AND THE SON), the immaculate conception of Mary, original sin, the infallibility of the pope, and the church governance headed by a pope itself. Please don't take offense debiwebi, this is just our position, not meant to offend or hurt anyone.

No offense is taken at all do not worry about it....if these are issues you have then this is what I came here to ask and get the answers to....why would I take offense to your beliefs, just because they are different than mine? No there is no need to worry...I only take offense when people are nasty and are not willing to discuss things and make it personal....IOWs they slam me hard. Then I take offense...you have every right to believe how you feel is right and True.

Now that that is out of the way, please do not feel bad about saying something contradictory to what I am. Now I will say that I agree with most of that. But I will tell you why I believe that the Holy Spirit comes first...It is the active force used by the Father and the Son so that they may be able to help and communicate, That gives it great importance....
Oh and can someone explain what is meant by the immaculate conception of Mary....just for clarification....are you speaking in the terms of Him inpregnating Mary with Christ or of Mary herself being born of an immaculate conception....cause then that I have not yet heard of and that there is no Biblical backing for and I would have a huge problem with.....
Oh and I believe in Original Sin as well but that was easy for me that one I learned long ago when I was raised another faith.....

 

[Philip]

The Church itself is infallible not the people running it....Although we believe that because of the succession of the Pope His Teachings on certain matters are infallible because they are coming from the Holy Spirit.

This is where we differ. We believe that the Church as a whole is infallible. Infallibility is not manifest in one man or one office.

Yes but again why were the Keys to His Church only handed to Peter not to the others? That would make Him the head of the Church would it not?

We agree that Peter held a position of honor among the Apostles. We do not agree that this extended to a position of authority. Look at the Council of Jerusalem. St. Peter spoke. St Paul spoke. The elders spoke. In the end, St James, not Peter, issued a judgement. The entire Council then agreed to the judgement. We see the Holy Spirit at work here, guiding His servants to unity. We do not see one man issuing an authoritative running.

Look at the other Councils. In each case, the bishops of the Church met as a whole and were guided by the Spirit to unity. The rest of the Church then embrased the declarations of the Councils. This act of the laity was also guided by the Spirit, a confirmation that the Council was Ecumenical.

Ok again you need to help me with this one because with my lack of proper knowledge in this area when I read it I did not see that but then I am only looking at it from one viewpoint as well...

I am not sure what you are asking. Before the Council of Nicea, there was a dispute as to who had the authority to appoint some bishops in Africa. The Council ruled that this authority rested in the Metropolitian of Alexandria. The bishops did not require the aproval of Rome. Contrast that with Rome's teaching today.

Erwin really needs more servers....

Erwin would love to have more servers. But, servers cost money.

 

[Basil]

In contrast to the clear hierarchy of the Roman church, I have heard of one Catholic priest who described the Orthodox Church as a headless monster. I think this does give you an idea that the Orthodox structure is seen as problematic by some . . . we have really teed off the Roman church a few times . . . but I think the concilliar leadership in Orthodoxy, as disorganized as it may seem, has actually been an amazing strength against heresy and novel doctrines from entering the Church.

Once the Orthodox Church united itself with the Roman Church, in what is now seen by the Orthodox as a false union, but Saint Mark of Ephesus stood up against the unity and the Orthodox Church went back on a unity agreement. I think it was in the 15th century. Can someone correct me if this is inaccurate? Very frustrating to the Roman see, no doubt.

 

[Philip]

Oh and can someone explain what is meant by the immaculate conception of Mary....just for clarification....are you speaking in the terms of Him inpregnating Mary with Christ or of Mary herself being born of an immaculate conception....

The Immaculate Conception refers to Mary herself being conceived immaculately -- free from the stain of Original Sin. This doctrine was developed to compensate for the developement of the doctrine of Original Sin.

In some sense, we Orthodox accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Mary was born free of Original Sin. But, here is where we differ: we too were born free of Original Sin. We do not accept the doctrine of Original Sin. So, while we agree that Mary was without Originial Sin, we deny that her conception was in any way different from ours. (Well, except for the part about St Anne being barren, but that is not relevent.)

Oh and I believe in Original Sin as well but that was easy for me that one I learned long ago when I was raised another faith.....

The Protestant Churchs inherited the doctrin from the Catholic Church.

 

[Philip]

Once the Orthodox Church united itself with the Roman Church, in what is now seen by the Orthodox as a false union, but Saint Mark of Ephesus stood up against the unity and the Orthodox Church went back on a unity agreement. I think it was in the 15th century. Can someone correct me if this is inaccurate? Very frustrating to the Roman see, no doubt.

It was the laity that gave the Church strength on this occasion. The laity refused to accept the union. The Holy Spirit used the body of the Church to show that the agreement reached by some clergy had not come from the Spirit.

 

[Cradle]

Christ is Risen.

Once the Orthodox Church united itself with the Roman Church, in what is now seen by the Orthodox as a false union, but Saint Mark of Ephesus stood up against the unity and the Orthodox Church went back on a unity agreement. I think it was in the 15th century. Can someone correct me if this is inaccurate? Very frustrating to the Roman see, no doubt.

15th century indeed. Here's a link about the incidents of that period, also with a lot of information about the topic discussed here...

[mod]We all have to play by the rules [/mod]

ggrrr too "young" to post urls, somebody please take care of it

 

[Debi1967]

OK but isn't Original Sin biblical? I know that I can find the references for it if I need to, and without going to the Catholic Church to find them either. Philip what are you trying to do throw me a tailspin? Ok so I admit there are times that isn't hard to do but be nice will ya .....

 

[Nikolas222]

The chruch rankings are like a pyramid. They start at the laity and move through the ranks such as priests, bishops, etc... But at the top of the Orthodox pyramid there is Christ, ahead of the Patriarchs. In the catholic church, the Pope is at the top of the pyramid. I have a problem with that because not just in my church's beliefs, but in my own, i believe all men are equal, and evan a man as holy as the pope (though i am not rc, I still respect him because he is a great man) cannot speak all truth. I believe that only the Trinity itself has that jurisdiction.

 

[Debi1967]

The chruch rankings are like a pyramid. They start at the laity and move through the ranks such as priests, bishops, etc... But at the top of the Orthodox pyramid there is Christ, ahead of the Patriarchs. In the catholic church, the Pope is at the top of the pyramid. I have a problem with that because not just in my church's beliefs, but in my own, i believe all men are equal, and evan a man as holy as the pope (though i am not rc, I still respect him because he is a great man) cannot speak all truth. I believe that only the Trinity itself has that jurisdiction.

Wait Ok a little correction here that is not what we believe either or not the way I was taught....Christ is also at the top of our pyramid as well never would we believe differently then that....The Pope is merely Vehicle He uses directly here on earth...But Supremacy of His Church is always given to Him alone. If I thought it otherwise I would not be Catholic.

 

[Philip]

www.ephesus.com/Orthodox/St.Mark-of-Ephesus.txt

 

[Philip]

OK but isn't Original Sin biblical? I know that I can find the references for it if I need to,

It is one interpretation of the Scriptures, but we do not believe that it is the Apostolic interpretation.

Philip what are you trying to do throw me a tailspin?

Absolutely not. I merely wish to explain our beliefs.

 

[Philip]

If I thought it otherwise I would not be Catholic.

I agree completely.

 

[Photini]

OK but isn't Original Sin biblical? I know that I can find the references for it if I need to, and without going to the Catholic Church to find them either. Philip what are you trying to do throw me a tailspin? Ok so I admit there are times that isn't hard to do but be nice will ya .....

We've got an active thread going on the subject of Original Sin right now....

http://www.christianforums.com/t146833

 

[Suzannah]

Just want to "vouch" for Philip...he's a great guy and would not have any hidden agenda...he's merely explaining the official positions. You can trust him....

(this was a shameless plug for Philip as my fellow human, brought to you by "Brawny", the quicker picker upper....)