I have a problem with an article Kenneth Copeland wrote

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Dan, I fought so hard not to post a first impression answer after reading half of the first paragraph....for it is here that I think you make a mistake in definition. The rest of the post hinges on this definition that you have, IMHO, forced upon this text. And perhaps you do this because of Romans 8:24-25, I don't know (it does seem likely though). Let's see...

This is kinda the crux of the point. You actually said it yourself in the above statement, then went one to explain it differently.

Here is my quote that you refer to:

Originally Posted by ABlessedMan
Hmm. In Hebrews 11:1 there is one thing that is said to be invisible: the thing. It is the thing that we hope for. It is our desire. We do not have it yet, so it is invisible to us.

​

Our hope (noun) is "our desire".

Yes, agreed.

The manifestation of our hope (noun) that we are hoping (verb) for is not the invisible thing, in the sense that it exists like Wonder Woman's invisible plane, we just cant see it or touch it.

(I capped Wonder Woman, as the first read for me I somhow missed it)
Ok.

"Manifestation" - this is the visible thing that comes by faith of our desired, hoped for ... um, hope. It is what faith brings about ultimately if our faith is real, if it is the evidence and substance of something that we once did not see. The "manifestation" is what we ultimately want. Could be healing, could be joy, could be salvation.

"Hope," as a noun is a desire. It is not a thing.
"Hope" (or hoping) as a verb is the action of wanting.

"Invisible thing" (or as you rightly say later that we must agree on, the unseen thing) is what we are at odds over herein.

So to your quote above: You are correct, the manifestation is not the invisible, or unseen, thing. The manifestation is when the unseen becomes seen...it is when we achieve that for which we have faith. The manifestation is the reality realized in this visible world.

The thing that we are hoping for is an invisible thing...

If you would have stopped here, we would be in perfect agreement. But alas, this is where we diverge.

...in the sense that it exists only as a hope; that is, as a picture in our mind, a concept, an idea, a blueprint; or, as you said, desire. And that is the definition of hope.

As you flesh out this definition below, it becomes apparent we don't define things the same. Let's continue below.

In fact, usually the manifestation of what we are hoping for already exists in the natural world, we simply do not yet have possession or ownership of it, therefore it cannot be invisible.

This, while perfectly true, is another aspect of the faith discussion. This is getting something that exists already but isn't fully yours -- such as the wealth of the wicked laid up for the just. We can have faith for such wealth, but it isn't ours. I could argue that the manifestation would be when it actually becomes ours (rather than defining manifestation strictly as what is visible somewhere). But let's not muddy this discussion with other aspects of this topic. Let's keep it on something that we don't have that isn't here in this world (like a healing, for instance).

Let me give an example to clarify what I mean. If we are believing God for finances, there are not invisible dollar bills floating around that we are trying to use our faith to manifest. I'm sure we have all heard the analogy that God is not a counterfeiter. He is not printing faith dollars for us. If He did, what serial numbers would He put on them? Would that be like the Fed printing money? Can we blame Him then for the devaluation of the dollar? (I know that you don't believe that, just having some fun!) No, faith isn't the substance of some invisible dollars bills. Faith is the substance of our HOPE; that is, the idea, concept, picture or desire to have enough money to pay our bills.

(Yes, I know your just having fun there.) But in the fun there is some misconceptions. For when we believe God for finances, we are not believing for the "dollar bills" but rather the "bill paid" (or whatever we need the finances for). I'm sure you agree with this, but I felt it important to put it down in writing.

So in this, I have issue with what I put in blue above. You repeated it in the next example, so I'll deal with it below.

If we are believing God for our daily bread, are their invisible loaves of bread floating around, that we cannot see, just waiting for our faith to manifest? No, faith isn't the substance of some invisible loaves of bread floating around. Faith is the substance of our HOPE; that is, the idea, concept, picture or desire that we have of our hunger being filled.

Ok, same thing. Daily bread is our sustinence, not a physical loaf of bread.

But the blue above. It is wrong.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
​

"Hoped for" is an adjectival phrase for the object of the prepostion "things." Faith is the substance. What is the substance? Substance of things. Anything else here is descriptive. "Hoped for" defines what the things are; the things are hoped for. The things are not hope.

Faith is the substance of things. Stop. This tells you what faith is: substance. This tells you what we have faith for: the things. We don't have faith for the hope -- we already have the hope. It is tangible to a point, although it is a concept, an idea. We have it already: we started there -- in hope.

We hope for the invisible thing. The thing (remember, let's assume healing) is not in our grasp yet. It is unseen. It is invisible. But our hope is ours; it is something we are embracing. It is something that we already have a hold of. We want the hoped for thing to manifest. The thing will (if faith is present and excercised) move from the unseen to the seen. The thing is the invisible thing. The hope is what we have and we are hoping for the unseen thing.

No, these things that we are believing God for are invisible because they exist only in thought form.

Absolutely not!! Not biblically (when it speaks of 'not seen').

If God gives faith for the thing we hope for it means that the thing is promised of God (or allowed of God). The thing exists in the spirit realm. Very, very real -- just not in our physical world. It is far from just a "thought form." In our example, healing, Jesus provided healing in the atonement. It is already in the spirit world awaiting us to manifest it (bring it into existence) through faith. Far from just a thought. It is very, very real.

They exist in our mind, in the form of ideas, concepts, pictures, or blueprints; what we call hope. These invisible things are our HOPE.

Hope, sure, is ours and is our idea of what we want, our concept. Yes. But hope is not the thing that hopefully will manifest if we have faith and excercise our faith for it to move from the unseen to the seen.

(The Bible also calls this light. Light and Hope are synonyms in the Bible, because it is light that gives us direction, shows us where we are going.) Now, the term things not seen is used in Hebrews 11:1 as a synonym for what HOPE does:

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
-Hebrews 11:1

Let me break it down this way so that you can get a clearer idea of what I am saying:

1. Faith is the substance..........of things..........hoped for...
2. Faith is the evidence............of things..........not seen...

Here, the phrase not seen, or invisible (I think we are in agreement that what is not seen is invisible) is used as a synonym for the phrase hoped for.

I don't agree with your (1)/(2) analysis. Those are different phrases in the verse. They are not meant (not is it logical) to set them side by side as you did and then say that one adverbal phrase is meaningfully equal to the other. Likewise, substance is not evidence, although both are what faith is.

The thing that is hoped for is our HOPE.

So again, I disagree with this. The thing hoped for is the manifestation of (in this example I've injected) our healing. But the thing is the thing. The hope is our hope for the thing.

The reason this is a big thing is that the hope is man-created. We have the ability to hope. And we can certainly hope for things that are contrary to God's will. A woman hoped for Kenneth Copeland in marriage. There will be no true faith for that. There will be no manifestation. The "thing" (marriage to Cope) is simply not on God's table in the spiritual realm.

Confusing "hope" as the "thing" allows faith to be the substance of something that might not even be God's will. And this simply does not hold water.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I personally still have some issues that I want to thresh out in this thread. They are:

1. The definition of unseen things;
2. The need for two or three witnesses when interpreting scripture;
3. Whether Hope comes from man or God.

I don't have the time right now to address all three. But I wanted to state these before I forgot.

Peace...

Very good. Very good indeed.

 

[now faith]

But it is soooooo fun!!!

Honestly, I believe that if we leave the "word" level of this study and step back up a level, Dan and I know the truth and agree for this set of verses.

And that is to manifest what God has promised and already given into our visible world through faith. Whether this be salvation, health, wealth, joy, peace....

Here we are playing at the word level to disect what this verse is actually saying. I always like to say that God's Word is like an onion. You look at it and it says something to you. Then peel back a layer and discover something more subtle. Then peel back another layer....and another... and another.... God has placed so many truths in the simplest of verses.

That's a great example, the depth of meaning in The Word is beyond text book. This is why so many miss it ,it is the living Word. I enjoy preachers like Price who create a whole new way that we brushed over to get a verse, you and Dan are doing this as well. For the rest of us class in in session . Now there are two meanings for class..... Lol

 

[dkbwarrior]

Dan, I fought so hard not to post a first impression answer after reading half of the first paragraph....for it is here that I think you make a mistake in definition.

I commend your self control!

The rest of the post hinges on this definition that you have, IMHO, forced upon this text. And perhaps you do this because of Romans 8:24-25, I don't know (it does seem likely though).

You are right, I do follow this train of thought from Romans 8:24-25. I truly believe that scripture interprets scripture.

"Hope," as a noun is a desire. It is not a thing.
"Hope" (or hoping) as a verb is the action of wanting.

You say that "Hope" is not a thing. This is simply incorrect. I am not going to post the Merriam-Webster definition of a noun here, as I am sure you can simply look at this statement, think about the definition of a noun, and know that HOPE (the noun), most certainly is a thing; (as a noun is a person, place or thing), unless you are contending that HOPE is a person or place?

"Invisible thing" (or as you rightly say later that we must agree on, the unseen thing) is what we are at odds over herein.

So to your quote above: You are correct, the manifestation is not the invisible, or unseen, thing.

Okay, so we agree to this extent. That is good. However, after saying this above, you turn around later and say just the opposite:

So again, I disagree with this. The thing hoped for is the manifestation of (in this example I've injected) our healing. But the thing is the thing. The hope is our hope for the thing.

This does get a little confusing, as both statements are true, but both statements are not what this verse is saying. This is important because what we are talking about here is what this verse is saying. As you rightly conclude below:

The manifestation is when the unseen becomes seen...it is when we achieve that for which we have faith. The manifestation is the reality realized in this visible world.

This is correct. According to this verse, we do not hope for the manifestation, we hope for the unseen thing. As I stated before:

The thing that we are hoping for is an invisible thing...

And actually I misquoted that because it is invisible things, not thing. That is important.

No, these things that we are believing God for are invisible because they exist only in thought form.

Absolutely not!! Not biblically (when it speaks of 'not seen').

If God gives faith for the thing we hope for it means that the thing is promised of God (or allowed of God). The thing exists in the spirit realm. Very, very real -- just not in our physical world. It is far from just a "thought form." In our example, healing, Jesus provided healing in the atonement. It is already in the spirit world awaiting us to manifest it (bring it into existence) through faith. Far from just a thought. It is very, very real.

Okay, I agree with you here. I misstated this. Not on purpose, but because I was thinking/talking of HOPE by itself, without faith added to it. HOPE without Faith has no substance, and therefore exists only as a thought, and idea, a picture, or a blueprint in our mind.

Faith gives spiritual substance to our HOPE. To be fair, the substance of Faith already exists for all promises of God in the spiritual world. But it doesn't becomes ours, it doesn't become real to us, until we receive it by way of revelation/understanding of the Promise by way of the Holy Spirit. Until we receive faith from God, our Hope has no substance for us. That is the point that I was trying to convey.

(The Bible also calls this light. Light and Hope are synonyms in the Bible, because it is light that gives us direction, shows us where we are going.) Now, the term things not seen is used in Hebrews 11:1 as a synonym for what HOPE does:

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
-Hebrews 11:1

Let me break it down this way so that you can get a clearer idea of what I am saying:

1. Faith is the substance..........of things..........hoped for...
2. Faith is the evidence............of things..........not seen...

Here, the phrase not seen, or invisible (I think we are in agreement that what is not seen is invisible) is used as a synonym for the phrase hoped for.

I don't agree with your (1)/(2) analysis. Those are different phrases in the verse. They are not meant (not is it logical) to set them side by side as you did and then say that one adverbal phrase is meaningfully equal to the other. Likewise, substance is not evidence, although both are what faith is.

I looked at this carefully after reading your response, and I think I will give you this. Though I do believe they are synonymous terms, I agree that the parallel analysis of the sentence structure here in this case does not prove it. Your point about the substance/evidence convinced me. If they cannot be compared, then niether can the second half of the sentence. I will drop this part of my argument.

They exist in our mind, in the form of ideas, concepts, pictures, or blueprints; what we call hope. These invisible things are our HOPE.

Hope, sure, is ours and is our idea of what we want, our concept. Yes. But hope is not the thing that hopefully will manifest if we have faith and excercise our faith for it to move from the unseen to the seen.

And here I simply disagree. What are we hoping for? We are hoping for whatever it is that we picture in our mind, the desire, the idea, the thought, the concept, the blueprint in our mind. AND THAT IS WHAT HOPE IS. So, yes, we are CERTAINLY hoping that our hope comes to pass.

But Hope has no substance without Faith. On the other hand, Faith with no Hope has no form. Faith is a spiritual substance. It puts Hope to work. Hope has nothing to work with, until Faith is added to it. Hope is like the blueprint for a house, while Faith is like the lumber. The lumber arrives and allows the blueprint to form it into the image that the blueprint contains. Believing is what we do with our Faith, and it is the act of believing that takes the substance of Faith, and creates the image of the Hope that it sees, manifesting the promise of God in our lives.

And the scriptures tell us that Faith puts Hope to work:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
-Romans 5:2-4

We could say it this way, (taking into mind James admonition that the trying of our faith worketh patience): The trying of our Faith (tribulation) puts to work patience, which in turn puts to work experience, which in turn puts to work hope.

The thing that is hoped for is our HOPE.

So again, I disagree with this. The thing hoped for is the manifestation of (in this example I've injected) our healing. But the thing is the thing. The hope is our hope for the thing.

The reason this is a big thing is that the hope is man-created. We have the ability to hope. And we can certainly hope for things that are contrary to God's will. A woman hoped for Kenneth Copeland in marriage. There will be no true faith for that. There will be no manifestation. The "thing" (marriage to Cope) is simply not on God's table in the spiritual realm.

Confusing "hope" as the "thing" allows faith to be the substance of something that might not even be God's will. And this simply does not hold water.

Well, I have to say that I don't think that HOPE is the only unseen thing being referred to here. It says unseen things, plural. These unseen things are made out of the substance of FAITH, and patterned by the blueprint of HOPE. Truly, my thought all along has been that the invisible things here described ARE the Faith and Hope.

After reading again these posts, and praying about it, I was reminded by the Spirit of the definition that the Spirit gave me years ago for ALL THINGS. All things in the Bible, at least in the New Testament is an idiom for the promises of God.

Truly, it occurs to me that the real definition for unseen things here in this verse would be the promises of God.

I don't fully agree with you that Hope comes from man, and faith comes from God. I believe that both Hope and Faith come from God. It is true that man has the capability of Hope by himself, but it would not be biblical hope in such a case, it would be the opposite. That could be defined as several different things, such as worry, or evil desire (cuncupiscence). Much like man has the ability of faith in himself, but we would call it fear, rather than faith. I don't want to get on too many tangents here, but suffice it to say that biblical Hope comes from the same place that biblical Faith comes from, the Promises of God.

I believe that every Word of God carries within itself both the HOPE and the FAITH of God. HOPE being the picture, the blueprint, or the form of the promise, and Faith being the spiritual substance of it. If the unseen things being referred to here are the Word of God, this ties the entire three verses together for me.

We could read them this way:

1Faith is the substance of the promises of God that we hope for, the evidence of the promises of God that we do not see.

2For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

3Through the substance of faith (we understand that) the worlds were framed, formed, patterned by the Word of God, so that the things that we see around us were not made of the things which we can see, but by the invisible substance of Faith and pattern or blueprint of Hope contained within that Word.

This of course, takes us right back to where we started. What to do with those three words, "we understand that". I resolve that with the parentheses, or commas, and you disagree. I think we have reached an impass.

However, this has not been a waste of time for me. I am rewriting my entire section on this verse now. I thank you for all your input!

Peace...

 

[dkbwarrior]

But it is soooooo fun!!!

Honestly, I believe that if we leave the "word" level of this study and step back up a level, Dan and I know the truth and agree for this set of verses.

And that is to manifest what God has promised and already given into our visible world through faith. Whether this be salvation, health, wealth, joy, peace....

Here we are playing at the word level to disect what this verse is actually saying. I always like to say that God's Word is like an onion. You look at it and it says something to you. Then peel back a layer and discover something more subtle. Then peel back another layer....and another... and another.... God has placed so many truths in the simplest of verses.

Lol. I so agree...

I have my teaching on All Things on CD. I need to upload it to my Podcast. I have several teachings that I need to upload, actually. I have been sidetracked these last weeks writing a new book, which is finished (for now) that I need to upload, and creating my own Chronological Gospels for the Healing Class I have been teaching, as we go through all the healings of Jesus in the gospels - (I wanted to go through them in order, and so ended up rearranging the entirety of the Gospels, only in chronological order. It is not as easy as it may sound. I am only about halfway done.) Although now, I am going to be rewriting much of the section What Faith Is in my book on Faith, hmmmm.... I got too many projects going on at once... And I start school this week. Lol! God is good!

Peace...

 

[hhodgson]

Faith is Substance/Evidence​

We believe. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen," according to (Hebrews 11:1)

Faith is what brings the "things" that God has (already) exists, and is provided for us from the spiritual realm (supernatural or unseen world) into the physical realm , (natural seen world), or "manifested" so that our five senses can actually see and feel the substance and the evidence that we were "hoping for.."

Romans 4:17 says, "God ... calleth those things which be not as though they were."

Great teaching guys...
Enjoy your journey to Rhema, Dan... Recess is over...



Greater works... for such a time as this...
_____________
Harry

 

[CindyisHis]

I have my teaching on All Things on CD. I need to upload it to my Podcast. I have several teachings that I need to upload, actually. I have been sidetracked these last weeks writing a new book, which is finished (for now) that I need to upload, and creating my own Chronological Gospels for the Healing Class I have been teaching, as we go through all the healings of Jesus in the gospels - (I wanted to go through them in order, and so ended up rearranging the entirety of the Gospels, only in chronological order. It is not as easy as it may sound. I am only about halfway done.)
Peace...

This is how I read my Bible, chronologically. I have for a few years now, and yes, it is not as easy as it sounds to put it in order, because I've done it too. And then there are discrepancies, things that could go here but also they may possibly go here. All in all, it is the BEST way to read through for me, I've learned so much, and it makes way more sense. I can't stress enough how much more revelation will come in doing this.

Do you read the Old Testament this way too? Oh my! Read what the prophets say as you read the history in that time period, and oh, it is way better.

 

[CindyisHis]

Faith is Substance/Evidence​

We believe. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen," according to (Hebrews 11:1)

Faith is what brings the "things" that God has (already) exists, and is provided for us from the spiritual realm (supernatural or unseen world) into the physical realm , (natural seen world), or "manifested" so that our five senses can actually see and feel the substance and the evidence that we were "hoping for.."

Romans 4:17 says, "God ... calleth those things which be not as though they were."


_____________
Harry

Agreed.

Harry, I've yet to see anything you've written I don't agree with. Your posts are very enjoyable to read. I'm blessed by them.

 

[dkbwarrior]

This is how I read my Bible, chronologically. I have for a few years now, and yes, it is not as easy as it sounds to put it in order, because I've done it too. And then there are discrepancies, things that could go here but also they may possibly go here. All in all, it is the BEST way to read through for me, I've learned so much, and it makes way more sense. I can't stress enough how much more revelation will come in doing this.

Agreed... Yes, where to put some things is the problem. This is more problematic when it comes to the teachings, than the events. Are two, three, or four different references to a particular teaching the same event, or just similar teaching at different times? Either could be true, and for some, their simply isn't a cut and dry answer. For instance, the Lords prayer. We have the one in Luke, and then the one in Matthew. I ended up putting them together, for the sake of comparison, but they could just as well have been two different occasions when Jesus taught on that subject. Multiply this by scores of other similar things, and you have to make alot of judgement calls.

Do you read the Old Testament this way too? Oh my! Read what the prophets say as you read the history in that time period, and oh, it is way better.

I have not yet done this. But I plan too...

Peace...

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Enjoy your journey to Rhema, Dan... Recess is over...

I think Dan is going to have the time of his life!!!

I am so jealous, in a good Christian kinda way. But I'm not called in this direction (perhaps yet!). My wife and I have been getting nudges about Wommack's Charis Bible College, but we are in prayer to see what the Lord is saying on that subject.

Dan, you go and soak up whatever the Lord has for you at Rhema!! Such a wonderful education you are in for...

Να είστε ευλογημένοι, ο φίλος μου.
​

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Originally Posted by ABlessedMan

"Hope," as a noun is a desire. It is not a thing.
"Hope" (or hoping) as a verb is the action of wanting.
​

IYou say that "Hope" is not a thing. This is simply incorrect.

Ugh! no self-control....

You are right.....I mis-posted. I meant to say "It is not THE things [talked about in Hebrews 11:1]"

You are correct to say that "hope" as a noun is a thing.


(See Wayaok, I'm not as arrogant as I seem. Almost as arrogant. I mean I'm way up there, nudging against the arrogance that I seem, but I'm not there, not as arrogant as I seem. There is still room up here for the Lord to get in and smack me around a little bit. )



(You know I jest)


(right?)

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I think we are so close on most all things that I'm not going to get picky with stuff here. I'm going to boil it down to the one major difference we have from verse 1. And that is shown here:

Originally Posted by ABlessedMan

Originally Posted by dkbwarrior

They exist in our mind, in the form of ideas, concepts, pictures, or blueprints; what we call hope. These invisible things are our HOPE.
​

Hope, sure, is ours and is our idea of what we want, our concept. Yes. But hope is not the thing that hopefully will manifest if we have faith and excercise our faith for it to move from the unseen to the seen.
​

And here I simply disagree. What are we hoping for? We are hoping for whatever it is that we picture in our mind, the desire, the idea, the thought, the concept, the blueprint in our mind. AND THAT IS WHAT HOPE IS. So, yes, we are CERTAINLY hoping that our hope comes to pass.

The blue above: We certainly are not hoping for more hope. No, we are hoping for the unseen things. We have hope that the unseen things may be ours. We do not have hope that hope may be ours.

Another way: "We are hoping for whatever it is that we picture in our mind...." Hope is the picture. What we are hoping for is WHATEVER IT IS that that is a picture OF. Hope is the picture; the unseen things are what's in the picture, what the picture shows.

Before I moved to Arizona (and for a short time after) I HOPED that God would lead me to His choice of a wife for me. She was the UNSEEN THING for this HOPE. God gave me FAITH to back up my HOPE. My HOPE for my future wife was a "picture in my mind, my desire, my idea, my thought, my concept, my blueprint in my mind" of a fruitful and loving marriage. When God gave me FAITH, I then had the SUBSTANCE of what I HOPED for, I had the EVIDENCE that my perfect wife existed somewhere (at least I figured it was somewhere, because if she was still not somewhere in this visible world then I was going to do some serious cradle robbing!!).

So I started with a HOPE for an unseen thing. God gave me FAITH, the SUBSTANCE of the wife that I HOPED for, the EVIDENCE of my wife. When I met my wife she was the MANIFESTATION of my FAITH, the MANIFESTATION of the unseen wife that I had been HOPING for. My wife was unseen while I hoped. I had evidence when there was faith. I had manifestation when I met her. I did not meet hope; I met my unseen thing, manifested into the seen.

It is important to understand this distinction, IMHO. For as I said before:

Originally Posted by ABlessedMan

Confusing "hope" as the "thing" allows faith to be the substance of something that might not even be God's will. And this simply does not hold water.
​

If we want to rewrite the bolded line above with focus on HOPE, then we could write: God gave me FAITH, the SUBSTANCE of the wife that I HOPED for, the EVIDENCE of that which I had HOPE to receive, my wife.

Faith is the substance and the evidence for the unseen things that we hope for.


That's the best I can do. If we are still defining terms differently after that one then perhaps like v3 we leave it for another day.

And the scriptures tell us that Faith puts Hope to work:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
-Romans 5:2-4

And the scripture still, in Hebrews 11:1, tells us that FAITH is the substance of things hoped for. So here in Romans 5 we are told that we are justified by faith (the faith that God gave us to be saved) which was an introduction into His Grace; we will face tribulations, these tribulations lead to patience; this patience to experience; this experience to hope. When we have hope (of the glory of God) He gives us more FAITH as the substance of that glory that God is and brings. It is a beautiful cycle, and a showing of how we are measured faith, and we excercise that faith, and we grow in faith....and perhaps become "faith giants" like those who teach us. Good and faithful servants will be entrusted with more and more.

This of course, takes us right back to where we started. What to do with those three words, "we understand that". I resolve that with the parentheses, or commas, and you disagree. I think we have reached an impass.

Well, perhaps for the time being we have reached an impasse on verse 3. You said that you will soon be taking a Greek course...so you will soon understand that the commas cannot be the translation from that Greek text (the Greek grammar doesn't allow it). I'm sure you will be biting at the bit to ask your instructor about that; I sure would be.

 

[CindyisHis]

The unseen things we desire ARE our hope.

IOW, my hope is debt cancellation. That is what I desire. That is the blueprint for my faith. Just like an architect has a scale drawing of a house, so I have a picture of what debt cancellation is. That blueprint is not the house, nor is my hope yet manifest. But I'll tell you this, when I speak to that mountain of debt it moves!!! Faith is the servant that is bring it to pass.

Now we have a new thing to look into.

I can just hear you guys going at the last statement.

 

[dkbwarrior]

The unseen things we desire ARE our hope.

IOW, my hope is debt cancellation. That is what I desire. That is the blueprint for my faith. Just like an architect has a scale drawing of a house, so I have a picture of what debt cancellation is. That blueprint is not the house, nor is my hope yet manifest. But I'll tell you this, when I speak to that mountain of debt it moves!!! Faith is the servant that is bring it to pass.

Now we have a new thing to look into.

I can just hear you guys going at the last statement.

I can tell you are an avid listener of Kenneth Copeland. I love his teaching on faith being a servant.

Peace...

 

[CindyisHis]

I can tell you are an avid listener of Kenneth Copeland. I love his teaching on faith being a servant.

Peace...

Yes. Every day. And if I miss a day it is recorded. I'm catching up now since I had company. Hey, they watched JPrince with me!

Yes, I've been a partner for 30 years. Not much I don't agree on with him.

The teaching we are referring to about faith being a servant is from Luke 16. As you read it in context you can see how it is faith that is the subject.

 

[now faith]

I look at Gods kingdom, somewhat like the woman with the issue of blood. Picture her from afar, she sees Christ! He is walking toward her,she longs in her heart my God if I could only get close. If I could only touch him ,I would be healed. My God no more pain no more agony,if I could maybe just touch his clothes I would be whole. Well bless God she was she overcame all to be made whole. We are no different ,we have needs wants and desires. We know Through Christ we can receive . But there is a crowd a force pushing us back, we keep moving closer to him ,we are so close we feel his Spirit moving in our lives. Our hope is one day we grab hold of this promise, this power,this love. If a tiny speck of The God kind of faith will move mountains, Lord Jesus I want a barrel full, I want to raise the dead, heal the blind ,and calm the storms, just by saing the name. The name that has put all things under his feet, the name that paid for all my sins, and bore my shame. The Blesset name of Jesus, holy ,holy holy is the Lamb.