I have a problem with an article Kenneth Copeland wrote

[dkbwarrior]

The new question arsing is, by faith do we get understanding, or is it by understanding we get faith? I choose the first.

I understand. I have described my position in further detail in the above post.

I am certain that to every man is dealt a measure of faith (Rom. 12), and by faith we receive all things. However, even the second could be true, for this is certainly true - the Lord opens the eyes of our understanding by the spirit of wisdom and revelation. (Eph. 1)

Yes, every man AMONG US is dealt the measure of faith. Those that are born again. But faith can grow also. Here is another excerpt from my book:

***********************************************

3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you,
not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly,
according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
-Romans 12:3

It is an easy mistake to make, when reading this verse, to isolate the second part of the sentence, and read it as if God has given to every man on the planet the measure of faith. However, as I have said before many time, everything must be read in context.

In the beginning of this sentence, Paul specifies that he is not speaking to every man on the planet, but rather he is speaking to every man that is among you. This means that he has qualified the term every man, limiting it to every man that is among the group to which he is writing, not to every man in the world. So the question then becomes, to whom was Paul writing?

1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
-Romans 1:1, 7

The letter of Romans, like the rest of the New Testament epistles, was specifically written to the church, to believers, to those that are called to be saints.

Therefore, in the second half of the sentence, when Paul says that God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith, he is still talking to that group that he specified at the beginning of the sentence, those that are believers. He is not talking to every man on the planet. Therefore, we could read the verse this way:

3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you,
not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly,
according as God hath dealt to every man [among you] the measure of faith.
-Romans 12:3

Additionally, Jesus is called the author of our faith:

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;
who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame,
and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
-Hebrews 12:2

And He is the Word of God.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
-John 1:1-2, 14

Therefore, it follows that when we receive the Word of God; we are receiving Jesus, who then authors or deposits the faith of God in our hearts. For this reason, faith comes from the Word of God, which is not just the scriptures, but the scriptures made flesh, who is a person named Jesus.

Faith Comes From the Seed of the Word of God:

That is why FAITH only comes from Gods Word. Because God Word is the only place where FAITH can be found. Every Word of God is full of the FAITH of God. We receive His FAITH by hearing His Word.

17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
- Romans10:17

FAITH always comes with the Word. It is like wet and water. You can’t have one without the other.

However, just because FAITH comes doesn’t mean that we have to receive it. That FAITH deposited in us unless the Spirit of God opens the eyes of our understanding so that we receive it into the soil of our hearts. That is why FAITH comes not just by HEARING; but rather by HEARING, and HEARING; the scripture repeats this word twice.

We must HEAR it two ways:

Physically, with our ears; (that is, with our physical senses. I think we can all agree that the Word can be spoken, written, signed or brailed; otherwise, how could a deaf person have faith?)

Spiritually, with our hearts; (that is, through revelation and understanding of that Word by the Spirit of God)

In the parable of the sower, Jesus compares the Word to a seed that is sown in the earth, and then explained why that seed doesn’t grow in everybody this way:

14The sower soweth the word.
19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not,
then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart.
This is he which received seed by the way side.
-Matthew 13:14, 19

Of course the wicked one is satan,:

15And these are they by the way side,
where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately,
and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
-Mark 4:15

He is the one who blinds the minds of those that do not believe:

3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God,
should shine unto them.
-2 Corinthians 4:4

Jesus went on to explained why that seed that doesn’t grow in some, does grow in others:

23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that
heareth the word, and understandeth it;
which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
-Matthew 13:23

Here we see that Jesus compared the Word to a seed. Now every seed contains within itself two incontrovertible things:

The DNA/RNA strand, which contains the information, or blueprint for the full growth and reproduction of itself
the invisible substance of LIFE, (something that the very best scientists with the very best microscopes still cannot find), that is, the power to bring itself to pass, to completion

In like manner, every Word of God, every promise of God, contains within itself the same two incontrovertible things:

The HOPE of God, which contains the information or blueprint for its full growth and reproduction; the Bible also calls this LIGHT, (illumination, understanding, or revelation)
the invisible substance of the LIFE of God, (something which we cannot find with our physical senses); that is, the power to bring itself to pass, to completion; the Bible also calls this FAITH, (power, or authority):

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
- John 1:1-4a

Therefore, every Word of God contains within itself the POWER, the LIFE, the FAITH, to bring itself to pass:

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;
to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
-Romans 1:16

Every Word of God is filled with the invisible substance of Gods FAITH. Therefore, every Word of God contains within itself the power to bring itself to pass.

Therefore, FAITH comes with the Word of God. When we hear the Word, FAITH comes. It is as simple as that. What we do with it after that, is up to us. We can let it stagnate, or we can cause it to grow.

It is called THE MEASURE of faith, because every Word of God contains the FAITH of God in seed form. This is the same as a physical seed. The physical seed contains the LIFE of the whole in seed form also. Yet you cannot eat the seed. Well, I suppose you could, but eating an apple seed would do little to satisfy your hunger, whereas eating an apple would. However, that little apple seed contains THE MEASURE of information and life given to it by its parent; as well as THE MEASURE of information and life necessary to reproduce not just itself, but the full image of its parent that it contains. This is important, because a seed doesn’t simply produce another seed, not even several other seeds. It produces a whole tree, with its fruit, and its seeds.

In the same way, any Word of God, any promise, is a seed. And every promise contains THE MEASURE of the Hope and Faith given to it by God Himself, as well as THE MEASURE of Hope and Faith necessary to reproduce not just itself, but the full image of its parent that it contains. Don’t forget that the Word is not just paper and ink, rather, He is a person, and God is in the business of reproducing that person, Jesus, in all of us.

When we are born again, THE MEASURE of faith is deposited in our hearts through the seed of the Word of God:

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
-1 Peter 1:23

THE MEASURE of faith that is deposited in our hearts by the seed of the Word of God contains the image of Jesus. Jesus is the image of the Father, and that image has been placed in us. It is the will of the Father to manifest the image of His Son in us:

18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
are changed into the same image from glory to glory,
even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
-2 Corinthians 3:18

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things,
in bringing many sons unto glory,
to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
-Hebrews 2:10

This is why Abraham could believe God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Therefore, THE MEASURE of faith that is deposited in our hearts by the seed of the Word of God contains within itself the image of all the blessing and promises of our covenant with God.

So how do we grow our faith, how do we get more of it? Specifically, how can we increase our faith, particularly in the area of healing? It can be a mind twister, trying to reconcile the fact that we have THE MEASURE of faith, with the fact that our faith can grow. But when we understand the principle of the seed, we can understand. We have THE MEASURE of the faith of God inside of us, yet it is in seed form, so it can most certainly grow, and produce what it is intended to produce!

Exceedingly Growing Faith:

3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet,
because that your faith groweth exceedingly,
and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
-2 Thessalonians 1:3

15Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours;
but having hope, when your faith is increased,
that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,
-2 Corinthians 1015

We can see from Pauls writings that it is possible for ones faith to grow exceedingly, for it to increase. This is what we all want, those of us that are seeking after God, is it not? But how do we increase our faith?

The disciples asked Jesus this question when He was here on earth:

5And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6And the Lord said,
If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed,
ye might say unto this sycamine tree,
Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea;
and it should obey you.
-Luke 17:5

Jesus answer was to have faith as a grain of mustard seed. Now, I don’t know about you, but I have heard this verse quoted by many preachers over the years, and it is usually quoted like this: “Jesus said that if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can move a tree by faith. It doesn’t take a lot of faith you see, just a little bit...”. Then they go on to describe how tiny a mustard seed is, etc.

But Jesus didn’t say, “If you have faith the size of a mustard seed...”, did He? He said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed...”, and that is a different thing altogether. What was unique to Jesus about a mustard seed?

30And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God?
or with what comparison shall we compare it?
31It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth,
is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs,
and shooteth out great branches;
so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
-Mark 4:30-32

What was unique to Jesus about the mustard seed was not simply its size, but its size in relation to its growth potential. It’s not little faith that can move the sycamine tree, but exceedingly growing faith that can move the sycamine tree.

Faith grows in much the same manner as faith comes, by the Word of God. Once a seed is planted, it needs nutrients and water to grow. So too with faith, once it is planted in our hearts, it needs to be fed and watered to grow. This is the same for all living things, not just plants and trees, but animals and humans also. All living things must eat and drink in order to grow.

The Word of God is likened to both bread and water in the scriptures. Not only is it the seed that is planted in our hearts when we are saved, it is also the fertilizer and water that helps it to grow.
*************************************************

Peace....

 

[CindyisHis]

I understand. I have described my position in further detail in the above post.



Peace....

Yeah, I thought it was in answer to my question!

 

[dkbwarrior]

You're right on, Dan. I'm persuaded. I suppose I based my thought on the fact that there are many many times I was the Lord for understanding and wisdom in things pertaining to life and godliness, and I know He hears because I am asking according to His will. And I receive. He gives me the answer to what I ask. This you covered when you talked about the scripture in James 1, which I use a lot in prayer.

You are very gracious! Thank you for taking the time to read it!

Peace...

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Punctuation is what makes the difference, which was inserted by translators. Here's two ways of reading this.

By faith we understand [that the] the worlds..... I added the [that the] thus meaning we have the ability to understand.

By faith, we understand, the worlds.....

Just simplifying what two good teachers are discussing. I had to refrain from saying 'splitting hairs' because I do think it is important. As with all scripture, there is so much to glean from every little thing.

The new question arsing is, by faith do we get understanding, or is it by understanding we get faith? I choose the first. I am certain that to every man is dealt a measure of faith (Rom. 12), and by faith we receive all things. However, even the second could be true, for this is certainly true - the Lord opens the eyes of our understanding by the spirit of wisdom and revelation. (Eph. 1)

What you are doing here, Cindy, is the difference between exegesis and eisegesis. What you have done here is taken the verse, claimed that we can choose the punctuation such that we can read this two different ways, and then applied the way you like best (or feel best with) to the text (outside looking in). You application was (after claiming we can punctuate things any way we want): "The new question arising is, by faith do we get understanding, or is it by understanding we get faith?"

This turns the translation from "what does scripture tell us" to "here is a way to understand this verse."

What you have done is started with an English translation and then modified it to see how it could otherwise be formulated, dimissing the original text and intent along the way.

This is, pure and simple, wrong application of scripture.

Hebrews 11:3 (SBL Greek NT)
3 πίστει νοοῦμεν κατηρτίσθαι τοὺς αἰῶνας ῥήματι θεοῦ...
​

πίστει (pistei); it means 'faith.' Its usage here is a noun, dative case, singular with neuter gender.

νοοῦμεν (nooumen); it means 'we are understanding.' Its usage here is a verb, present tense, active voice, infinitive mood and plural in number.

κατηρτίσθαι (katErtisthai); it means 'to having been adjusted.' Its usage here is a verb, perfect tense, passive voice.

The verb understand here is in the active voice. It is the verb being done in this sentence. The verb that we translate as 'were framed' is passive. It is something that simply is.

Further the position of the words in the sentence, in Greek, let us know which ties to which. This construct explicitly says that "faith understands [that the worlds were framed]." The number of νοοῦμεν (understanding) is plural, meaning that the understanding is done by many, thus the translation is that "we (not so much that many faiths, but many who have faith) understand."

Thus the proper (and historical) translation of this is that "(By) faith we understand the framing of the worlds by the Word (declaration) of God into not-appearing (not made) the things we look at have become."

If your unique application of commas were correct, the translation would have come out as "We understand that by faith God framed the worlds by the Word of God...." In such a constuct, faith no longer becomes the prominent noun in the sentence, which it is in Hebrews 11:3 based upon its placement. In this sentence the commas you suggest simply make no sense grammatically in Greek.

Further, as I pointed out, this is NOT an isolated grammitical construct. Paul uses the same construct in almost every other verse in Hebrews 11. Your comma placement does not translate well to these other verses of the same Greek construct.

Paul was quite a learned man. He knew Greek very well. The nuances that he used in many of his letters attests to this fact. And some scholars point to the fact that God chose him, who was not an original apostle directly taught by Jesus, to write most of the New Testiment, as a pinning point to his grasp of theology and his ability to pen it. I don't know if I agree to this degree, as his being a Pharisee who converted seems to be a much stronger "selling point" to the veracity of the letters he wrote. But I digress...

Exegesis. It is letting this verse speak for itself first. Let this verse tell us what it wants to say. Then, and only then, when there can be multiple ways to interpret do we begin to stretch out. First to the context immediately around, then to the entire chapter and book. (Again there are many verses with Paul using the same construct just in this chapter.) And then out to the whole of the Bible. And through this, all must agree.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I disagree completely, as I do think that the verse supports the interpretation that I gave above, and which Kenneth Copeland gave it. Good men disagree on the meaning of scripture all the time. We can disagree on this. I am not going to make my whole argument again. You simply need to read it; slowly and with an open heart and mind. The biggest proof of what I am saying is the last argument in my post. The second half of the verse, that says "...so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear", tell us that he is still talking about faith here, not the Word. He has already defined for us the subject of the chapter, and what this invisible substance is in verse 1. This chapter is not about the Word of God, it is about faith. Faith is the subject. The invisible things that created the world being referenced here are faith, not Words. Kenneth Copeland interpreted this verse 100% correct, IMHO.

Dan, I did not say the chapter was about the Word of God. I do agree with you that Hebrews 11 is all about faith.

All that was in question is what the OP brought up: why did Cope drop a couple words because it then changes the meaning of the sentence. It does not, in my opion, detract from Cope's overall teaching: that God used faith to frame the universe. Only that Cope's construct here leads one to think that the subject of verse 3, "faith," is God's faith. See my answer to Cindy here which digs deeper into the Greek and how we translate.

The only reason this is an issue at all, is because we don't have a firm foundational understanding of what Faith is.

No, Dan. This is a side-step from what is being discussed. We are not discussing Faith itself, per se. We are not discussing whether God has faith (He does). We are not discussing if God used His faith to frame the world.

We ARE discussing whether the missing words from verse 3 in Cope's article changes the meaning of whose faith is being discussed. And it does. And to Cope's defense, articles in magazines often go through editorial munching to make things fit or otherwise. So I'm not bashing Cope for his ellipses, but I am pointing out that the meaning changes.

For instance, this type of sentence structure is already used in english. If I were to replace the words with others, you would see the point clearly. For example : "Through education and environment we understand that children can excel in life." Is this sentence telling us that it is education and environment that help us to understand that children can excel? Not at all.

Dan, dan dan.... *sigh*

That is a poorly constructed sentence in English grammar. And it is not apros pos to use it here to justify a reading of a properly formatted interpretation of properly formatted Greek text. Come on, now.

If you change your presuppositions, you automatically change the interpretation of the sentence.

When we approach the Bible in English, this is true. When we let the original tell us what it says, this become harder (though not impossible). In the case of Hebrews 11:3, the translators got it right. And on this, I see no arguments between translators either, no notes to the contrary or alternative. The Greek in this case is clear cut: we know the subject and we know the verb; we know the objects and we know the actions.

For me the OP was a little picky, albeit correct. But being the language lawyer that I am, the point of how we interpret scripture and how we form theologies and doctrines from that interpretation is critical. Exegesis, not eisegesis.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

For sure.

So everybody's right.

Yay. We all agree.

 

[CindyisHis]

Bob, you're reading me wrong. What I was asking is which IS the way the verse reads, not how do I WANT it to read. It was written in Greek, so it was translated into English and punctuation is inserted by man.

I'm ALWAYS looking to know what God IS saying. He is God, my Father, and what He says IS right. I am not looking to tell Him what He is saying. That is plain dumb!

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

ABM, I get what you are saying and I see what you are saying. No problem. I wish Ken wouldn't have worded things the way he did because it makes for silly rabbit trail threads like this one.

The OP is concerned about the use of the verse. And that is what this has become for me: translation and meaning from the original Greek text, rather than an overlay of meaning by the reader from the English translation. It is one of my pet peeves.

Scripture is infallible, although our translations may not be inerrant. Going back to the original text helps us to understand and clarify the infallibility of the Word, and it can be used to chasten us when we have begun to cling to a misunderstanding.

The problem with many of us, myself at the front of the line, is that we think we have certain answers. We preach with boldness because of it. I actually would not expect anyone to teach and preach here unless they felt convicted in what they believed. We must be honest when we know that we don't know; and we must be bold when we think we do know. We must also be ever willing to be open about what we are convinced of, so that the Lord, thorugh others, can chasten and correct our views and understandings.

The Word was given to us to teach us. It is the living, breathing Word of God set before us so that we can learn and understand. We gain this ability through the faith God gives; God gives this faith because we engage His Word. It is a wonderful cycle. The world does not receive such faith and thinks the things of God are silly; they, through their lack of faith, have no understanding. Through our acceptance of Jesus we become His, and He gives us faith, and through that faith we can receive...we receive the things that are unseen and manifest them in the seen. We, through this faith, can now receive revelation from God, and through this understanding. This is something the world cannot know for they know not God and they have not His faith.

THIS, to me, is what this thread is all about.

 

[hhodgson]

"The new question arising is, by faith do we get understanding, or is it by understanding we get faith.."

I admit that after reading all posts up to date that I am "unsettled in both opinions." Hmmm..! I think that being "unsettled" could be a definition of being double minded on what to agree on in both of these opinions, since I am right now back and forth, and that's not a good thing, at least for me, since the scripture in (James I:8) says that "a double minded man is unstable in all of his ways... Hmmm!..

so, that's why I'm taking the high road on this one (chicken..? yeah, look what's chasing me!) and my advice to me is to take it all in and sit back and see how it plays out... As I gain more understanding through the renewing of my mind on this subject, then we can either agree or disagree, but with whom..? Now that's the question...

This is what this forum is all about... This thread is very imformative... At the end of this discussion, it will probably be one of those things that we can agree to disagree...

God bless our teachers, they are the best... To the viewers, and "me." Listen up and learn, sit back and have some fun... This thread is very interesting... Let's see what God is going to do...

Greater works... For such a time as this...
_____________
Harry

 

[Shepherd1]

Hebrews 11:3 (SBL Greek NT)

3 πίστει νοοῦμεν κατηρτίσθαι τοὺς αἰῶνας ῥήματι θεοῦ...
​

LOL I'm out!

Ha ha only joking - love you guys!

 

[dkbwarrior]

Hebrews 11:3 is not the verse to try to support God's faith with. This verse is NOT directly refering to God's faith (nor is v4, v5, v7, v8, v11, v17, v20, v21, v22, v23, v24, v27, v30, v31, and not even v39, which all but 39 follow the same grammatical pattern).

I disagree. It is all the faith of God. The faith that we have is imparted to us by God. It is His faith that we are using.

Hebrews 11:3
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,
​

English grammar is quite clear here.

Hebrews 11:3 (SBL Greek NT)
3 πίστει νοοῦμεν κατηρτίσθαι τοὺς αἰῶνας ῥήματι θεοῦ
​

And the Greek grammar is quite clear here as well. Literally the first two words here say: "by/through faith we are understanding..."

I cannot play on this field, I do not know Greek. Though I am planning to take a Greek course next semester. I would like to get a degree in it eventually.

Sorry Dan, scripture clearly tells us that this we understand only through faith -- our faith helps us to understand [that God framed the worlds by the Word of God].

I have already said this several times. Mabey you are not hearing me. If faith helps us to understand that God framed the worlds by His Word, then the second half of the verse, which is referring to THE INVISIBLE THINGS WHICH CREATED THE WORLDS, would have to be referring to the Word of God, rather than faith. But the subject of this chapter is not the Word of God. It is Faith; and faith has already been described as the invisible things that this chapter is talking about. If you truly believe that this verse is not talking about the faith of God, then what is the invisible things that created the worlds that he is referring to? Your interpretation only leaves one possibility, that he is referring to the Word of God. But the Word of God is nowhere described as 'invisible things', only faith is described as 'invisible things', and faith is the subject of this chapter.

God used God's faith. This faith mentions is the faith through which we understand.

Of course God used Gods faith. Every verse in this chapter is talking about Gods faith. It is the invisible things that created everything. It is also the invisible things that in us allow us to believe Gods Word.

Please show me other verses that explain that Faith is what helps us understand the things of God? There are none that I am aware of. This fact alone, brings this interpretation into suspicion, IMHO.

Peace...

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I have already said this several times. Mabey you are not hearing me. If faith helps us to understand that God framed the worlds by His Word, then the second half of the verse, which is referring to THE INVISIBLE THINGS WHICH CREATED THE WORLDS, would have to be referring to the Word of God, rather than faith. But the subject of this chapter is not the Word of God. It is Faith; and faith has already been described as the invisible things that this chapter is talking about. If you truly believe that this verse is not talking about the faith of God, then what is the invisible things that created the worlds that he is referring to? Your interpretation only leaves one possibility, that he is referring to the Word of God. But the Word of God is nowhere described as 'invisible things', only faith is described as 'invisible things', and faith is the subject of this chapter.

I'm in a hurry to leave to pick up my son from work, but this caught me...(I'll come back later to read more deeply and perhaps comment ("oh goodie" I hear you say!!))

but... Faith is not the invisible things. The invisible things are the invisible things. Otherwise when they manifest into visible things then faith would be the visible things.

Verse 1 says that faith is the substance and the evidence OF THE THINGS not seen. It is not the things, but rather that fact that God has given us faith for those invisible things tells us that those invisible things are on the table awaiting manifestation. Faith is the substance and the evidence that the things we do not see are even in play.

I could be hoping that the Moon will split in two. If God does not provide me faith for such thing then I am only hoping. I have no substance. I have nothing to say that my hoped for thing is in the invisible and is in play for manifestation.

I gotta go..... be back later

 

[now faith]

Wow God is good! Amen. Just today I was involved in a debate. A retired charismatic pastor and I disagreed. He made a statement that WOF , is teaching a form of witchcraft by our understanding of faith. No I did not throw him out of my store, I rebuked that thought. He went back to the 1800s and claimed some preacher had this doctorian. I had asked him about Smith Wigglesworth he had never heard of him. So his vast knowledge in faith ,was that in the Greek it meant trust, with no reference to substance, or evidence.He compared us to the Secret, a book based in witchcraft. This man told me he received the Holy Ghost in 1966 , all I can say is God is not the author of confusion. To stay on topic of thread, my view is the more we translate the Word the more it changes, and not all translations are sound. The translations are copy written so there must be changes,with change comes confusion. I do not condem others for useing modern bibles, but I do believe King James is the Word of God for English speaking people.Some words were hard to translate from Greek But in modern versions there are far more differerances than the King James. What's next Ebonics ? Dan, Bob you are a blessing in gods perfect time, the knowlage posted in this forum is priceless.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Bob, you're reading me wrong. What I was asking is which IS the way the verse reads, not how do I WANT it to read. It was written in Greek, so it was translated into English and punctuation is inserted by man.

I'm ALWAYS looking to know what God IS saying. He is God, my Father, and what He says IS right. I am not looking to tell Him what He is saying. That is plain dumb!

lol. Actually I know that about you already....you seek the Father's will at all times.

Many times we in Word/Faith, because we get bashed by the more orthodox, we tend to eschew them and their scholars. So we tend to look for ways to make the verses read a different way, like inserting commas where they do not currently exist. Some like to do that with the thief on the cross (although there are some orthodox who will insert a comma there) and make it say: "I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise." The Greek could possibly support this, but it would not be the common manner in which a first century writer would write that thought. As opposed to the way it is in most translations: "I say to you, today you will be with Me...."

Here the Greek supports no commas as suggested. And again, I do want to stress that I agree with WHAT Copeland is teaching: God's faith formed the universe. I simply agree with the OP that his ellipses make the verse read in a peculiar way.

 

[now faith]

lol. Actually I know that about you already....you seek the Father's will at all times.

Many times we in Word/Faith, because we get bashed by the more orthodox, we tend to eschew them and their scholars. So we tend to look for ways to make the verses read a different way, like inserting commas where they do not currently exist. Some like to do that with the thief on the cross (although there are some orthodox who will insert a comma there) and make it say: "I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise." The Greek could possibly support this, but it would not be the common manner in which a first century writer would write that thought. As opposed to the way it is in most translations: "I say to you, today you will be with Me...."

Here the Greek supports no commas as suggested. And again, I do want to stress that I agree with WHAT Copeland is teaching: God's faith formed the universe. I simply agree with the OP that his ellipses make the verse read in a peculiar way.

Argh ! This is what drives me nuts. It reads on a fourth grade level, never did it say I say to you today; THIS DAY, cannot be twisted to I say to you today. Egg headed , stubborn know it alls add ifs ands and buts to any verse they want to support their teaching. Gods word was intended to rightly divide and educate, but not by conforming it into whomevers box. I simply am not going to search the world over to find other meaning for Gods word. Kennth Hagin barely finished high school , but he certainly understood the Bible.

 

[now faith]

Christ said to Peter ,upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Peter was a fisherman by trade, not a scholar . Yet he was chosen, yet out of all the apostles he stepped out and walked on the water. It's safe to say he was highly favored by Christ, one revelation from The Holy Spirit is all you need. Knowlage from God is knowlage that surpasses understanding of the world. We simply cannot text book the Bible it is the living word of God. The wisdom of men is as foolishness to God. There comes a point in the sheltered halls of Bible collage that men become to smart for God. Their grand views are supported by years of study and degrees hanging on the wall, and suddenly their wondrous minds, put God in their opinion, and they form the gospel according to me.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Wow God is good! Amen. Just today I was involved in a debate. A retired charismatic pastor and I disagreed. He made a statement that WOF , is teaching a form of witchcraft by our understanding of faith. No I did not throw him out of my store, I rebuked that thought. He went back to the 1800s and claimed some preacher had this doctorian. I had asked him about Smith Wigglesworth he had never heard of him. So his vast knowledge in faith ,was that in the Greek it meant trust, with no reference to substance, or evidence.He compared us to the Secret, a book based in witchcraft. This man told me he received the Holy Ghost in 1966 , all I can say is God is not the author of confusion. To stay on topic of thread, my view is the more we translate the Word the more it changes, and not all translations are sound. The translations are copy written so there must be changes,with change comes confusion. I do not condem others for useing modern bibles, but I do believe King James is the Word of God for English speaking people.Some words were hard to translate from Greek But in modern versions there are far more differerances than the King James. What's next Ebonics ? Dan, Bob you are a blessing in gods perfect time, the knowlage posted in this forum is priceless.

Actually, when the King James was written in 1611 and the understanding of Greek was not as full as it is today. In a sense I agree with you, in that some scholars are inputing their own theology into simple translations. But, in this instance the New King James will be more accurate than the original King James. And although I like the NKJ, the New American Standard Bible (NASB) is considered to be one of the most literally translated (consider this link). That said, most scholars are fairly orthodox so you won't see them translating mark 11:22 as "have the faith of God." (And the crib notes at the bottom of the page will be decidedly orthodox as well!)

 

[CindyisHis]

lol. Actually I know that about you already....you seek the Father's will at all times.

Many times we in Word/Faith, because we get bashed by the more orthodox, we tend to eschew them and their scholars. So we tend to look for ways to make the verses read a different way, like inserting commas where they do not currently exist. Some like to do that with the thief on the cross (although there are some orthodox who will insert a comma there) and make it say: "I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise." The Greek could possibly support this, but it would not be the common manner in which a first century writer would write that thought. As opposed to the way it is in most translations: "I say to you, today you will be with Me...."

Here the Greek supports no commas as suggested. And again, I do want to stress that I agree with WHAT Copeland is teaching: God's faith formed the universe. I simply agree with the OP that his ellipses make the verse read in a peculiar way.

You still seem to think I am inserting commas when actually I don't know if they should be or should not be there. I only pointed out that it can be read two ways, the very two things that you and Dan are going round and round about. I am not adamant on either, though with all due respect I am leaning to Dan's pov at this time.

I simply went to the Lord and asked Him. After all, He is the author! He always reveals and always teaches anytime anyone asks. I receive the ministry of the Holy Spirit - to lead us into all truth. I also believe He brings us all into the unity of the faith. He said so, and I expect that is what will happen.

 

[CindyisHis]

Kennth Hagin barely finished high school , but he certainly understood the Bible.

Amen. Anyone can. It is for 'whosoever'.



Thank You Jesus for revealing it to babes!

Oh, how I love You!!!

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

You still seem to think I am inserting commas when actually I don't know if they should be or should not be there.

No, I heard you say you are only considering each alternative.

I only pointed out that it can be read two ways, the very two things that you and Dan are going round and round about.

No, it cannot be read two ways. This is quite grammatically solid in Greek. Kione Greek does not use punctuation because the variants of the words give us the connections that punctuation in English provides; Kione Greek doesn't need punctuation. (Perhaps that's why the Lord picked it!)

(The argument from some TV preachers that the lack of punctuation makes Greek ambiguous is simply a flawed argument and shows a blatent lack of understanding of this language. Now I am certainly no scholar, nor am I an expert in Greek, but I do know some aspects of the language and the grammar and am confident in my statement that this verse cannot be rendered in the two ways suggested.)

I am not adamant on either, though with all due respect I am leaning to Dan's pov at this time.

I've been reading Dan's posts and I keep getting caught up in his teaching on faith and I forget that I'm talking about this verse. He is a very good teacher indeed.

Along these lines, Dan seems to be making a point that "God framed the worlds with faith." And I have no disagreement with that. The construct of verse 3 in Hebrews 11 simply does not lend itself to have the word "faith" be applied to the framing/preparing. It simply does not.

I do understand the argument and logic that Dan is applying. In and of itself it is a good study. His writing about the connection and/or lack thereof in scripture of faith to understanding and vice versa is an interesting read. I'm enjoying it and all the rest he says about faith. But Hebrews 11:3 grammatically cannot be made to read this way -- it simply does not grammatically support this.

---

Cindy, all I did originally was to agree with the OP that it was unfortunate that Copeland left out the words he did. I emphasized that what Cope was teaching was still sound doctrine in Word/Faith. I really had no problem with Cope's article. This thread then busted out of its container and became a discussion about how a verse is translated and rendered from the Greek to the English; parallel to that it became a topic of what we can and can't logically do with the English translation as far as examining alternatives. ANY ALTERNATIVE to the English rendering MUST, MUST, MUST be taken back to the original to see if it is a serious possibility for translation.

For instance, Mark 11:22 in almost all translations reads: "Have faith in God." The respected Greek scholar A.T. Robinson wrote once that this verse could just as easily be written "Have the faith of God." He did extend that remark to say that such a rendering is not compatible with traditional orthodoxy, and so the first is the (his) preferred.

A few years ago I had a conversation with Dr. Dan Wallace of Dallas Theological Seminary. He confirmed that this verse (Mark 11:22) indeed could be rendered with "of," but that translations are made based upon "the ubiquitous understanding of how we relate to God in the Bible." He further said that, "yes, theology does play a part in translation, but necessarily so." In other words, orthodox understanding breeds orthodox understanding. And because of this understanding, "have faith in God" is the generally preferred translation.

So in this case, preachers who teach that this verse CAN say "Have the faith of God" are CORRECT. It can. And within our doctrines and theology (WoF) we know this to be true. We can show that God indeed possesses faith, that said faith does not need to be placed 'in' something or someone greater, but rather that God's faith is what He used to create from the invisible to the visible. His faith says "Light be," and it is. There are no second thoughts or alternatives. His faith is perfect.

And we get that conclusion not simply because we want to believe it; not simply because someone decided one day to write Mark 11:22 as "Have the faith of God;" no, it was because the original Greek text fully supports this construct. Modern orthodox theology may reject this reading for another, but "of" in Greek, in the genetive case here in v22, is certainly an acceptable rendering. It harmonizes with our theology; it rubs against others.