I hate when people take simple scripture and interpret it to mean what they want

d taylor

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I can understand the reasoning. If God doesn’t forgive us, where does that leave us?

If you are a believer it leaves you unforgiven for any sin you may commit as a believer.
So you are seeing this as positional forgiveness and not fellowship forgiveness.

It is amazing how many people (believers?) who love to simply not acknowledge that Jesus has taken away the sin of the world. That sin is not a factor in a person receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life, the only issue is belief. Does or does not a person believe in The Messiah for Eternal life.

Even more than that, sin is not even an issue for a nonbeliever, in that being a reason they end up in the lake of fire. Because as 1 John 2;2 states

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

So not sure how or even why would a believer want to add in the idea that Matthew 6:14,15 is saying a believer will end up in hell because they have not forgiven a person.

The only way i can understand that type belief, is that they must be believing that their receiving Eternal Life is based on actions that they do in their lives.





Does Your Eternal Destiny Depend on Your Forgiving Others? — Matthew 6:14-15 – Grace Evangelical Society

Below is from grace evangelical society

1 John 1:9 makes it clear that if we confess our sins, then God forgives us in a fellowship sense. The same idea is found in John 13:10 and Matt 6:14-15.
Confession of sins as found in 1 John 1:9 is only effective “if we walk in the light as He is in the light,” as 1 John 1:7 says.

Confession of sins is not magic. It works if we are walking in the light, walking in fellowship with God. If we are walking in the light, we will forgive those who sin against us. But if we are walking in the darkness, like the prodigal son of Luke 15:11-24, then acknowledging our sins will not result in fellowship forgiveness and fellowship with God. The prodigal needs to repent, turning from the darkness back to the light.
 
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SeventhFisherofMen

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Not sure what the person was saying, you were listening to, but if you are adding in that a person is going to hell because God will not forgive them because they did not forgive. Then you are doing the same as the person you are judging
Because there is nothing in Matthew 6:14 about a person going to hell.

This verse in Matthew is addressed to believers. It is addressed for the believer for discipleship in a believers life.
I wasn't going on the specifics of where people go, all I can say is if Jesus says "forgive or you will not be forgiven" it means "forgive others or you will not be forgiven"
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Yes, but these organizations are not Christian based entirely, and that does not mean all Christians are obeying our Lord's teachings always. Granted, I know in the past: A Christian has served in the military and he did not take up violence against another. We see this in the true to life story made into a film called Hacksaw Ridge.


Note: While the movie correctly portrays a real life Christian following the teachings of Non-Resistance taught by our Lord and His followers, I do not agree with SDA churches other beliefs (Which is not pushed in the film). Note: I do not agree with SDA's promotion of the Saturday Sabbath command (Colossians 2:16), and in their following the teachings of Ellen G. White, that are extremely heretical in my view).
The story is amazing but the movie does not portray it accurately, The father was not abusive and was also a Seventh-day Adventist.

Also EGW did not write the 4th commandment. God did with His own finger. God’s Ten Commandments is just that, a covenant of Ten, not nine. The one commandment you teach we should “forget” is the one commandment God said to REMEMBER. We do not have a God of confusion or a God who changes.

Thanks for sharing the story on Desmond Doss it is quite remarkable how God worked through him to help save so many soldiers.

God bless
 
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1watchman

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Well, this thought is a bit later from original post, but it seems worthy to note that people who scramble Scripture without "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" as God says; and be taking "all the counsel of God" too, are after a religion of their own making.

We NEED to see first, what the difference is between the Old Testament about creation and the Israelites, and the New Testament in the new dispensation of grace. Israel rejected their Messiah and killed Him --and thus are set aside until much later as shown in Revelation, when a new Israel testimony will be established on earth, AFTER the Church is called up to Heaven (perhaps soon). Readers need to learn of these things, rather than listen to much reasoning by men, and religious ideas.

One needs to read first, the four Gospel books about Redemption; then consider the Epistles about Church Truth; then understand spiritual life as shown in all the New Testament for us today. I hope this summary may help a seeker here.
 
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1watchman

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As one has stated herein, a reply seems needed --not that I speak against any religion one chooses to embrace ---note:
"The SDA is one of the very few churches who still believes in God's holy laws including all Ten of the Commandments of God, personally written by our Savior and stored in the Most Holy of God's Temple. Talk about inspired!
I am not sure how any Church can claim to be inspired by God while trying to edit one of the Ten Commandments and the holy day of the Lord thy God that God told us to Remember. Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13 It certainly is not what the scriptures teach, nor what the SDA church teach."
[/QUOTE]

This kind of statement seems to me to say: The Ten Commandments given for Israel under the Israelite religion, is still for the Church, but the New Testament which is for the Church in this age, shows that the four Gospels and Epistles is our authority now, which shows a different mind for the Church than that of Israel. Well, I hope this helps in your understandings of the Word of God for this age.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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As one has stated herein, a reply seems needed --not that I speak against any religion one chooses to embrace ---note:
"The SDA is one of the very few churches who still believes in God's holy laws including all Ten of the Commandments of God, personally written by our Savior and stored in the Most Holy of God's Temple. Talk about inspired!
I am not sure how any Church can claim to be inspired by God while trying to edit one of the Ten Commandments and the holy day of the Lord thy God that God told us to Remember. Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13 It certainly is not what the scriptures teach, nor what the SDA church teach."
This kind of statement seems to me to say: The Ten Commandments given for Israel under the Israelite religion, is still for the Church, but the New Testament which is for the Church in this age, shows that the four Gospels and Epistles is our authority now, which shows a different mind for the Church than that of Israel. Well, I hope this helps in your understandings of the Word of God for this age.

Jesus told us the Sabbath was made for man in the New Testament Mark 2:27 and went to Temple as His custom on the Sabbath as our example reading from scriptures Luke 4:16. The Sabbath is a commandment of God Exodus 20:8-11 written personally by our Savior and placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple. Jesus tells us not to obey traditions over the commandments of God and doing so you are worshipping in vain. Matthew 15:3-9 God never commanded us to keep holy the first day but God did command us to keep holy the seventh day Exodus 20:8-11. We all have a choice you can follow tradition or follow God’s Word and keep the commandments of God. According to scripture God’s saints keep the commandments of God and have the faith in Jesus Revelations 14:12. God does not change and He told us the Sabbath would be a perpetual covenant Exodus 31:16 which is why the Sabbath day continues as the day of worship of our Lord and Savior in the New Heaven and new Earth Isaiah 66:23.
 
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1watchman

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Allow me to respond to your statements, friend, then I will leave off this matter, and we can all go any religious way we choose. I only intend to speak from the New Testament in comparison with the Old Testament of Israel.

As to your ref. to Mark 2:27 and Jesus going to the temple, please note that was to ONLY speak to those Israelites there to learn about the hope of Israel, which was Himself. As to Luke 4:16 as you stated, friend, it was custom to go in the temple, so He went there to explain the hope of Israel had indeed come --in Himself (note the rest of the chapter as to verse 30, when He turned away from their rebellion). The Israelites there REJECTED Him (verse 28 t0 30) for it went contrary to their religious ideas (big mistake, they made).

Later Israel killed Him (though actually being their Messiah) in order to maintain their man-made religion --far from what it was in the beginning as the Prophets, such as Isaiah, tried to tell them. That is why they are set aside today. We don't look to their religion for our testimony today in the New Testament. Many professing Christians today make this grave error in holding to the Israelite religion.

Without quoting all Scripture, I will just point out that an honest seeker after Biblical truth must read "all the counsel of God" as God tells us and shows in the New Testament for the Church universal, and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth". The other verse you show, friend, as Matthew 15: 3-9 speaks of commandments to man for THIS AGE, and not about the Old Testament Commandments to Israel. Exodus was truth to Israel, so not for the Church.

I hope you come to get in harmony with the New Testament truth for the Church, and not be carried away with Old Testament religious ideas, and religion notions of many religious and various religion people in christendom.
Well, keep looking up!
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Allow me to respond to your statements, friend, then I will leave off this matter, and we can all go any religious way we choose. I only intend to speak from the New Testament in comparison with the Old Testament of Israel.

As to your ref. to Mark 2:27 and Jesus going to the temple, please note that was to ONLY speak to those Israelites there to learn about the hope of Israel, which was Himself. As to Luke 4:16 as you stated, friend, it was custom to go in the temple, so He went there to explain the hope of Israel had indeed come --in Himself (note the rest of the chapter as to verse 30, when He turned away from their rebellion). The Israelites there REJECTED Him (verse 28 t0 30) for it went contrary to their religious ideas (big mistake, they made).

Later Israel killed Him (though actually being their Messiah) in order to maintain their man-made religion --far from what it was in the beginning as the Prophets, such as Isaiah, tried to tell them. That is why they are set aside today. We don't look to their religion for our testimony today in the New Testament. Many professing Christians today make this grave error in holding to the Israelite religion.

Without quoting all Scripture, I will just point out that an honest seeker after Biblical truth must read "all the counsel of God" as God tells us and shows in the New Testament for the Church universal, and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth". The other verse you show, friend, as Matthew 15: 3-9 speaks of commandments to man for THIS AGE, and not about the Old Testament Commandments to Israel. Exodus was truth to Israel, so not for the Church.

I hope you come to get in harmony with the New Testament truth for the Church, and not be carried away with Old Testament religious ideas, and religion notions of many religious and various religion people in christendom.
Well, keep looking up!
I think you are following the path of the title of this thread. The Sabbath is the only holy day of the Lord thy God. Isaiah 58:13 Exodus 20:10.Do you think God wants people to worship Him on a day that is not holy to Him? A day not blessed or sanctified by God?

Gods' Israel according to the new covenant scriptures are no longer all those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but all those who are now born of the Spirit who believe and follow Gods' Word *Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:27-28; Romans 2:28-29. There is no more Jew or Greek all are now one in Christ. If we are not a part of God's Israel born into God's new covenant promise through faith we have no part in Gods' new covenant promise.

I would not advise taking select scripture that does not agree with you and saying it was meant for someone else. The whole Bible is meant for us in every day and age. The lessons in the Bible are meant for us. God’s holy commandments still stand and what Jesus referenced about keeping traditions over commandments still stands Matthew 15:3-9. Matthew 5:17-30

God's will for us is the same in heaven as it is on this earth

Matthew 6:9
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.


Psalms 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.”

Revelations 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple.

We all know what is in the ark of the covenant. God's holy laws that He both spoke and wrote with His own finger. This is God's will for us and if you do not agree you're argument is not with anyone on this forum. We all have will have to answer to Jesus upon His return. We have time to change our ways and walk in the path that Jesus left for us. There are 170+ references to God’s Sabbath in the scriptures and God and Jesus did not teach us all about the holy day of the Lord thy God from Creation Genesis 2:1-3 and throughout the entire bible so everyone could worship on another day after Jesus left. This is a doctrine that did not come from the Holy Spirit.

Which is why the Sabbath will continue to be the holy day of the Lord thy God and the day we will worship our Lord and Savior every Sabbath in Heaven and the New Earth Isaiah 66:23

Scripture teaches us to follow Jesus and His ways. The whole bible the Sabbath is the only day God blessed and sanctified and the day God calls His holy day. The Holy Spirit given to those who obey the laws of God Acts 5:32, John 14:15-18 Jesus tells us to obey the commandments over traditions Mathew 15:3-9. There is no commandment to keep holy the first day, but there is the seventh day spoken and written by our Savior. Exodus 20:8-11
 
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1watchman

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I am sorry you completely ignored what I showed you, friend (and quoting Ex.20 as what Jesus said --which He did not). We can appreciate what God gave Israel; but when Jesus came He showed us what God intends for the Church (which did not exist in the Israelite religion --see also Acts 20:7). The "born again" saints today will honor God by receiving His "beloved Son" --the Lord Jesus; and we need to worship and value His 'resurrection' on the FIRST DAY of the week, without which we would be ignoring what He accomplished for godly seekers --a new course. Some of us will continue to worship on the Lord's Day --the first day of the week; rather than look back to the Israelites who missed receiving their Messiah and were set aside, until a future time when the Lord returns to reign. I will pray for you, friend!
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I am sorry you completely ignored what I showed you, friend (and quoting Ex.20 as what Jesus said --which He did not). We can appreciate what God gave Israel; but when Jesus came He showed us what God intends for the Church (which did not exist in the Israelite religion --see also Acts 20:7).

This is what Jesus taught as our example.

Luke 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. 17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”
20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” 22 So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth.

Why do you ignore these verses by the disciples?

And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
- Mark 6:2

And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
- Luke 13:10

And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
- Acts 13:42

And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
- Acts 18:4

Just a few scriptures. You really should consider reading the New Testament because the Sabbath is mentioned multiple times as still being the law and the day Jesus and the disciples preached and read from the Word of God. There is no scripture that says the first day is a holy day of God or a new day of worship. Please provide those scriptures.


I am sorry you completely ignored what I showed you, friend (and quoting Ex.20 as what Jesus said --which He did not).
I think its the other way around. Jesus and God's laws are not at odds with each other. Jesus came to magnify His Fathers laws Isaiah 42:21 and did not come to destroy the laws of God. Matthew 5:17-30 There is no scripture in the entire bible that says the 4th commandment has been deleted from God's covenant of Ten. There is no scripture telling us to now worship God on the first day. Acts does not say this, this appears to be your opinion going against the Word of God as I see you provided no text that says:

The "born again" saints today will honor God by receiving His "beloved Son" --the Lord Jesus; and we need to worship and value His 'resurrection' on the FIRST DAY of the week, without which we would be ignoring what He accomplished for godly seekers --a new course. Some of us will continue to worship on the Lord's Day --the first day of the week; rather than look back to the Israelites who missed receiving their Messiah and were set aside, until a future time when the Lord returns to reign.

There is no scripture stating that the Lords day is the first day either. God does not change. Jesus did not teach us all about the Sabbath so it could be changed the moment He leaves this earth. Jesus references the Sabbath after He leaves to Heaven Matthew 24:20 and never mentioned one word that God's commandment would be deleted or changed. Jesus said: But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” Matthew 4:4


. I will pray for you, friend!
I will pray for you friend, I have scripture to back up when Jesus asks why did I obey God's commandments and worship Him on the seventh day. I can point to scripture where it says so: Exodus 20:8-11

We are told God's will is the same in Heaven as it is on the Earth. Why do you ignore this very easy to read scripture?

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.

Sunday is and will never be the day we are to worship our Savior according to God who told us His holy day is the seventh day from the beginning to the end. Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Exodus 31:16, Ezekiel 20:20, Ezekiel 20:12, Isaiah 58:13, Mark 2:27, Matthew 15:3-9, Isaiah 66:23, Revelations 14:12, Revelations 22:14-15
 
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TedT

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The title says it all. ...
I hate when people take simple scripture and interpret it to mean what they want
ImCo,

Exegesis is a flim flam unless the Holy Spirit teaches you the meaning of what He wrote.... NO ONE can form an opinion about an interpretation WITHOUT it fitting into their preconceived notions and estimation of reality. This framework is called our mind set, a set of beliefs that shape how you make sense of the world and yourself. It influences how you think, feel, and behave and it cannot be countered by the person holding it, only modified by the Holy Spirit.
 
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hedrick

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ImCo,

Exegesis is a flim flam unless the Holy Spirit teaches you the meaning of what He wrote.... NO ONE can form an opinion about an interpretation WITHOUT it fitting into their preconceived notions and estimation of reality. This framework is called our mind set, a set of beliefs that shape how you make sense of the world and yourself. It influences how you think, feel, and behave and it cannot be countered by the person holding it, only modified by the Holy Spirit.
I’m afraid you’re right. Taking the plain meaning of individual passages, particularly from the OT, without looking at the whole biblical picture, as well as what the Christian community has learned in trying to apply scripture, can give the wrong result.
 
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pescador

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I wasn't going on the specifics of where people go, all I can say is if Jesus says "forgive or you will not be forgiven" it means "forgive others or you will not be forgiven"

The NIV has this for Matthew 6:14-15, " For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

The NET -- my favorite translation -- has this for Matthew 6:14-15, "For if you forgive others their sins, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive you your sins."

Remember the context: this was not said to Christians -- there were none yet -- but to His Jewish disciples.
 
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pescador

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Allow me to respond to your statements, friend, then I will leave off this matter, and we can all go any religious way we choose. I only intend to speak from the New Testament in comparison with the Old Testament of Israel.

As to your ref. to Mark 2:27 and Jesus going to the temple, please note that was to ONLY speak to those Israelites there to learn about the hope of Israel, which was Himself. As to Luke 4:16 as you stated, friend, it was custom to go in the temple, so He went there to explain the hope of Israel had indeed come --in Himself (note the rest of the chapter as to verse 30, when He turned away from their rebellion). The Israelites there REJECTED Him (verse 28 t0 30) for it went contrary to their religious ideas (big mistake, they made).

Later Israel killed Him (though actually being their Messiah) in order to maintain their man-made religion --far from what it was in the beginning as the Prophets, such as Isaiah, tried to tell them. That is why they are set aside today. We don't look to their religion for our testimony today in the New Testament. Many professing Christians today make this grave error in holding to the Israelite religion.

Without quoting all Scripture, I will just point out that an honest seeker after Biblical truth must read "all the counsel of God" as God tells us and shows in the New Testament for the Church universal, and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth". The other verse you show, friend, as Matthew 15: 3-9 speaks of commandments to man for THIS AGE, and not about the Old Testament Commandments to Israel. Exodus was truth to Israel, so not for the Church.

I hope you come to get in harmony with the New Testament truth for the Church, and not be carried away with Old Testament religious ideas, and religion notions of many religious and various religion people in christendom.
Well, keep looking up!

Israel didn't kill Jesus, Rome killed Jesus. I will just point out that an honest seeker after Biblical truth must read "all the counsel of God" and not put their own spin on it.
 
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It's just sad looking at these threads where people are just cutting each other down with words just because they have a view that might be different from theirs. Not saying everyone here is doing it but those that are doing it it's just sad man, we're supposed to be Christians that are on the same team that build each other up. I haven't been back to CF for a week or two until recently and it's still the same old arguing back and forth and pushing people's buttons and acting like you're not saying something offensive to the other person when they get upset and reporting people if they show any form of emotion. Sad.
 
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It's just sad looking at these threads where people are just cutting each other down with words just because they have a view that might be different from theirs. Not saying everyone here is doing it but those that are doing it it's just sad man, we're supposed to be Christians that are on the same team that build each other up. I haven't been back to CF for a week or two until recently and it's still the same old arguing back and forth and pushing people's buttons and acting like you're not saying something offensive to the other person when they get upset and reporting people if they show any form of emotion. Sad.

You're joking, right? (Just joking!)
 
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Israel didn't kill Jesus, Rome killed Jesus. I will just point out that an honest seeker after Biblical truth must read "all the counsel of God" and not put their own spin on it.

Literally, yes, it was Rome; and to please the Israelites who clamored for His death. The reason Israelites wanted Him killed was for speaking against their religious ways, and the Romans accommodated them to gain favor. We need to put the whole scene in all the NT together.
 
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Literally, yes, it was Rome; and to please the Israelites who clamored for His death. The reason Israelites wanted Him killed was for speaking against their religious ways, and the Romans accommodated them to gain favor. We need to put the whole scene in all the NT together.

Regardless, it was Rome that killed Jesus (regardless of the reason). For too long and by too many, it has been stated that the Israelites (a.k.a. the Jews) killed Jesus. They didn't; Rome did.

Encouraging someone to kill another is definitely wrong, but that is not the same as doing the actual deed.

Notice that the OP describes people taking "simple scripture" and interpreting it to mean what they want it to mean rather than what it actually says. This is a perfect example.
 
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Interpreting scripture to mean what you want is called 'eisegesis.' This is how certain people try to force scripture to accommodate a preconceived belief or biased church doctrine.

See my "signature" below...
 
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The title says it all. I just listened to a sermon about the verse where Jesus says "unless you forgive others your Heavenly Father will not forgive you" and then proceeded to say "That might sound like if you don't forgive others you're going to hell, but I think it means this..."

Like bro Jesus literally simplified it to forgive or you won't be forgiven, that's what it means it's not some complicated thing that cannot be comprehended or needs 10 years of study in the greek to truly translate it better than experts who translate scripture and is their job.

Just wanted to vent my frustration when people overcomplicate scripture that is very simply put.


amen I think what happens is some go to books that are explaining things , without ever going to the scripture for themselves.


the example you use here


“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

is something so clear and also repetitive directly from Christs word of life in the gospel such as again here


“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-

And also on the parable of the unforgiving servant which concludes the same way about the man who was forgiven and then refused to forgive others


“And his Lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’ve experienced the same as you are saying I believe it comes because of books by men who teach that it doesn’t apply “because of grace “ they’ve sold millions of books telling Christians why Jesus words don’t apply to a believer in Christ but only “ unwarranted favor “ applies


they teach literally that anything God tells us to actually do and not do is Old Testament and the New Testament is merely grace and nothing of the thkngs he taught apply it’s really terrible
 
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