I find that the witch hunts of the dark ages were immoral

[Kalevalatar]

Is it? Or did people use that text as a pretext for exercising power over others?

Once upon a time a 15 y.o. shepherd boy got beaten up and humiliated by a 12-year-old shepherd girl. Clearly, the girl had to have Devil on her side. To save her own hide, the girl had no choice but to name names and concoct sensationalist titilliating tales of immoral acts the public was drooling to hear. Thus began the great Swedish witch mass hysteria of 1668–1676.

Envy and greed played their part in it. The accused were generally better off and slightly luckier in life than their neighbours. Or engaged in land disputes with their neighbours. Those executed were wealthier widows, often implicated by their own relatives.

The dynamic is basically the same as for the majority of those Bagram & Gitmo "terrorists" sold into capture by their rivals or greedy officials in exchange of $,$$$ reward paid by the US taxpayer. A handy way of getting rid of a neighbour you don't like or who stands in your way.

 

[elephunky]

Somewhere back in history people used to accuse others of being witches and thus have them tried and killed.

I find this to be the height of ignorance: If our ancestors had realized that magic doesn't exist, then they would have realized that accusing others of being witches was ludicrous. If magic doens't exist, then neither do witches.

At least, that is what I believe. Outside of the movies, magic doesn't exist. There is no such thing as magic in real life. And it's foolish to believe it does exist. Its like saying the tooth fairy exists too (And I know she doesn't).

So I don't find any logical reason why our ancestors accused people of being witches and then having them tried in a court of law and had them killed for that reason. I don't think that being a witch should be a crime anyway.

So many innocent people were falsey accused of crimes they didn't commit. And all because of ignorance.

The whole thing is so evil.

The whole thing was driven by fear more than anything else. They feared the ability of witches, so their instinct was to eraticate them. Unfortunately most of the people that died due to being accused of being a witch werent even attempting to practice magic. If they died in the tests they were deemed not a witch, which didnt make much of a difference since they were dead by that point.

I also read that the places where the witch trials were held were actually in areas where the presence of the church wasnt very strong. I am not sure how accurate this is though.

 

[DaisyDay]

I also read that the places where the witch trials were held were actually in areas where the presence of the church wasnt very strong. I am not sure how accurate this is though.

In the present, witches are very often persecuted by the Christians. Older women seem to be the primary targets.

 

[elephunky]

In the present, witches are very often persecuted by the Christians. Older women seem to be the primary targets.

How so?

 

[Ecclectic79]

They apparently didn't have much faith in the Lord's justice or protection.

Far more likely reason in my mind though - political posturing that had far less to do with the suspect witches and far more to do with either display of power/authority or simply finding a way to squash political/theological dissent.

Electing the Merovingians as Holy Roman Emperors was probably the most Faustian moral trade that the Catholic church made since letting Constantine run the 1st Council of Nicaea.

 

[Boris89]

If our ancestors had realized that magic doesn't exist, then they would have realized that accusing others of being witches was ludicrous.

...

So I don't find any logical reason why our ancestors accused people of being witches and then having them tried in a court of law and had them killed for that reason. I don't think that being a witch should be a crime anyway.

The Bible itself clearly talks about magicians and the like and what should be the attitude towards them. I don't think one could seriously call himself Christian if he/she randomly chops off pieces of the Bible as illogical when they don't fit his/her views. We should align our thinking with the Bible, not the Bible with our personal opinions. Every one of us is far from being competent enough to read the book on our own. That's why we have the early church fathers.

 

[elephunky]

The Bible itself clearly talks about magicians and the like and what should be the attitude towards them. I don't think one could seriously call himself Christian if he/she randomly chops off pieces of the Bible as illogical when they don't fit his/her views. We should align our thinking with the Bible, not the Bible with our personal opinions. Every one of us is far from being competent enough to read the book on our own. That's why we have the early church fathers.

I think this is quite normal, there are listed laws that no longer are followed such as mixing cloth etc.

Magic exists but not in a supernatural sense like you see in movies and tv shows

 

[Boris89]

I think this is quite normal, there are listed laws that no longer are followed such as mixing cloth etc.

Do you mean women and men wearing each other's clothes? This is still followed. Here in the Orthodox church at least...

Magic exists but not in a supernatural sense like you see in movies and tv shows

This is actually one of the main problems with modern movies and PC games. There you see flashy colourful representations of magic and when you go out in the real world, which does not look as flashy, you think it's all fairy tales. It's not.

 

[ReverendDG]

But that particular passage was altered by order of King James when his version was coming to print and ultimately did in 1611.
He did this because, being incredibly deviant, he was also paranoid. And he imagined a coven of Witches were conspiring to kill him. So he altered what was the original text that stated, thou shalt not let a poisoner to live, to that of, thou shalt not let a Witch to live.
Thereby making in his own words what was said to be a Godly proclamation to execute those who he thought were working magic to unseat him.

No one knows if anyone put to death as a Witch after just prior to 1611 was a member of that supposed coven bent on unseating King James. (Or, Queen James, as he was also known).

Witchcraft, it should be noted, was allowed to be freely practiced in England when Witchcraft laws were repealed in 1951. In 1954 the first official publication about Witchcraft was made public. Gerald Gardners, 'Witchcraft Today."

Something that would have made King James spin in his grave having to realize not only do Witches live but they publish in Great Britain too.

sorry but you are wrong about king james here, the belief that there was a huge group of people who worked with and consorted with the devil was a common belief hundreds of years before that.

thing was that persecution of witchcraft was common enough anyway in a lot of countries that weren't christian, using black magic was a crime punishable by execution, and for much of the early medieval period, the church denied magic and witchcraft was real or harmful to anyone but the person doing it.

it wasn't until later around the 13th century that people started to believe in witches and magic again. unlike the period before that, were it was thought that witches and sorcerers were nonsense and harmless to christdom.

after the 13th century, it started to change, and no longer were witches thought of as poor souls being manipulated by satan but out and out partners using their powers to hurt people. around 1486 the guide to witches was written, the malleus maleficarum(the hammer of the witches). this book was printed 20 times!

i'm not sure where you get the idea that no one was put to death for witchcraft before 1611, because i bet it goes back thousands of years. people will blame someone when their cows die from a plague or their crops fail from a drought.

anyway the high point of the craze was between 1580 to 1630 in most of europe and somewhere along the 18th century for britain. britain made it illegal to accuse someone of witchcraft in 1735, but the last trial was held in 1782.
it should be pointed out that prier to the 13th century, the crime of witchcraft was secular in nature, thanks to thomas aquinas witchcraft turned into heresy and was considered an area the church had to deal with.

the law you are talking about is the fraudulent mediums act of 1951, which prevented people from lying to people about being a medium, psychic or spiritualist.
this was replaced in 2008 with consumer regulation laws made by the EU.
the 1735 law didn't end up so much as protecting people from accusations of witchcraft but creating a way for real witches to be persecuted as insane or crazy.

 

[ReverendDG]

The whole thing was driven by fear more than anything else. They feared the ability of witches, so their instinct was to eraticate them. Unfortunately most of the people that died due to being accused of being a witch werent even attempting to practice magic. If they died in the tests they were deemed not a witch, which didnt make much of a difference since they were dead by that point.

well yeah, the fear of being tempted into following satan, to being cursed by the witch, to have loved ones taken and sacrificed to satan or they themselves being sacrificed.
though often it was because they were afraid of being accused of being a witch as well!

I also read that the places where the witch trials were held were actually in areas where the presence of the church wasnt very strong. I am not sure how accurate this is though.

eh, i don't think so.
depending on the church officials they were often the people leading the mob to go burn the "witch's" house down.
this was most commonly found in salem. where rather than superstition or fear leading people to accuse others of witchcraft, it was simply greed, jealousy or hate.
historians have long decided that all the accusations were over land, distrust of people who lived alone and pure jealousy.

 

[Ecclectic79]

I'll add one more thing - certain things were situation to Israel and in particular maintaining purity of bloodline for the sake of the birth of Christ. Leviticus 20:27 (ie. kill all mediums/spiritualists) pertained to the gravity of that situation - ie. needing a physical line that could support Christ. Similarly Noah and Abraham's perfection in their generations wouldn't have mattered much otherwise.

You can note that in John 8 Jesus himself stopped the execution of an adulteress which is in direct contradiction with Leviticus 20:10. Point being not that adultery is okay but that killing people for it is not appropriate under the NT. Sorcery or witchcraft would be the same story.

 

[Cearbhall]

Somewhere back in history people used to accuse others of being witches and thus have them tried and killed.

Unfortunately, this isn't just a part of history. It still happens in some parts of the world, especially to children.

I find this to be the height of ignorance: If our ancestors had realized that magic doesn't exist, then they would have realized that accusing others of being witches was ludicrous. If magic doens't exist, then neither do witches.

What's worse is that it seems that in some situations, the people who made the accusations were aware of this and made the accusations for personal gain.

 

[Kalevalatar]

it wasn't until later around the 13th century that people started to believe in witches and magic again. unlike the period before that, were it was thought that witches and sorcerers were nonsense and harmless to christdom.

after the 13th century, it started to change, and no longer were witches thought of as poor souls being manipulated by satan but out and out partners using their powers to hurt people. around 1486 the guide to witches was written, the malleus maleficarum(the hammer of the witches). this book was printed 20 times!

i'm not sure where you get the idea that no one was put to death for witchcraft before 1611, because i bet it goes back thousands of years. people will blame someone when their cows die from a plague or their crops fail from a drought.

anyway the high point of the craze was between 1580 to 1630 in most of europe and somewhere along the 18th century for britain. britain made it illegal to accuse someone of witchcraft in 1735, but the last trial was held in 1782.
it should be pointed out that prier to the 13th century, the crime of witchcraft was secular in nature, thanks to thomas aquinas witchcraft turned into heresy and was considered an area the church had to deal with.

I would like to add a few points:

* Indeed, the Swedish secular Town and Country Laws of 1350 and 1442 had no regulations for benevolent magic.
* The period between the Reformation and the Age of Enlightment, the period of witch-hunts, is know as Lutheran Orthodoxy: state + God + purity of society --> legislation against moral offences, adoptation of the old pro-torture, pro capital punishment Mosaic Law 1608-1734 as a deterrent never meant to be taken quite so literally. It was, however, less about the Bible and more about the authoritarian state power using the Bible to scare people to serve the state.
* "Witchcraft" itself was just one of the many moral crimes of the time and a rather minor one at that, except for the short peak period of mass witch hysteria 1668–1676.

I'd also like to point out that there is no one single reason for witch-hunts. Instead, they should be viewed in their own local contexts and one mold does not fit all. For instance, in Finland and Estonia where the tradition of shamanism was strong, a major portion of the accused and executed "witches" were actually men, unlike elsewhere. In the immediate neighbour in the Swedish proper, the victims were older ladies.

 

[DaisyDay]

Do you mean women and men wearing each other's clothes? This is still followed. Here in the Orthodox church at least...

No, cloth, not clothes. It is forbidden to weave linen and wool into a single piece of cloth. I suppose that would hold for cotton and polyester as well.

This is actually one of the main problems with modern movies and PC games. There you see flashy colourful representations of magic and when you go out in the real world, which does not look as flashy, you think it's all fairy tales. It's not.

Do you think magic actually works?

 

[Boris89]

Do you think magic actually works?

That's common knowledge. Demons have the ability to do some minor sorceries like bright visual effects (UFO's) and pointing the correct location of things etc.

St. John of Damascus has described their attempts of predicting the future. Of course only God knows for certain what the future holds but the fallen demons have knowledge of everything in the past and on the basis of what has happened and is happening they can try to predict what might happen. That's why fortune tellers are sometimes right but also sometimes wrong. On the contrary, God's prophets were correct in every little bit they said.

 

[Ecclectic79]

Do you think magic actually works?

Yes.

Try reading MP Hall's Secret Teachings or seeing what Eliphas Levi or Aleister Crowley have to say about it (albeit especially for the last two pray for spiritual protection if you do read their stuff).

It's true that the reality of it isn't what most people who think it is (ie. Hollywood misleads the heck out of it). Lets just say that western esotericism is Jung and beyond, and for some of those diving into esotericism some paths - if one's either foolish, crazy, or just plain too mad at the world to care - there are grimoires out there that teach you how to summon and contact things you really shouldn't have anything to do with. There are other paths such as alchemy where people are simply just that eager to find God or dive into the nuts and bolts of reality, we can debate the merits/demerits of that but as a huge inner world introvert I've had my tug of war with that pull for a long time.

From experiences that I have had in my life - I can't think of a single reason to doubt it that people can summon angels, demons, and elementals though, ie. I've experienced the veil of reality breaking down so to me there's no material agnosticism nor agnosticism on whether there's anything to occultic thinking. Part of the reason why those invoking greater/lesser Solomon keys or Enochian magick only get so far aside from getting lots of eye candy - the restrainer (whether you'd call that Christ, the Holy Spirit, the church, etc.) have that greatly weakened if not nullified in their presence simply because as a Christian you are a representative of the ultimate authority.

 

[keith99]

No, cloth, not clothes. It is forbidden to weave linen and wool into a single piece of cloth. I suppose that would hold for cotton and polyester as well.


Do you think magic actually works?

Yup, and likely with a little work we could find a verse that gives some grounds to find polyester to be forbidden as 'unnatural'.

 

[keith99]

I would like to add a few points:

* Indeed, the Swedish secular Town and Country Laws of 1350 and 1442 had no regulations for benevolent magic.
* The period between the Reformation and the Age of Enlightment, the period of witch-hunts, is know as Lutheran Orthodoxy: state + God + purity of society --> legislation against moral offences, adoptation of the old pro-torture, pro capital punishment Mosaic Law 1608-1734 as a deterrent never meant to be taken quite so literally. It was, however, less about the Bible and more about the authoritarian state power using the Bible to scare people to serve the state.
* "Witchcraft" itself was just one of the many moral crimes of the time and a rather minor one at that, except for the short peak period of mass witch hysteria 1668–1676.

I'd also like to point out that there is no one single reason for witch-hunts. Instead, they should be viewed in their own local contexts and one mold does not fit all. For instance, in Finland and Estonia where the tradition of shamanism was strong, a major portion of the accused and executed "witches" were actually men, unlike elsewhere. In the immediate neighbour in the Swedish proper, the victims were older ladies.

And in many cases the Church was NOT the driving force, but rather a major force trying to limit the excesses.

 

[elephunky]

I am curious to know what people think magic actually is. I believe it to be nothing more than a projection of intent and sometimes similar to that of prayer. It has nothing to do with satan or demons or evil or anything like that.

 

[DaisyDay]

Yup, and likely with a little work we could find a verse that gives some grounds to find polyester to be forbidden as 'unnatural'.

It is certainly unnatural, but I don't think it's evil.