I feel like the only Christian who believes in evolution.

Erik Nelson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 6, 2017
5,118
1,649
46
Utah
✟347,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The Masoretic text is of much later date than the LXX.

From what I've seen there are both parts that are very faithful, and parts that vary, when comparing the Masoretic to ancient fragments we do have. And unless I've missed it, we don't have the fragment in question for this one word that it is suggested we base theology from.

Why should suppositions 2000 years after the fact based on a back-translated word we can't verify trump what the Church has said? Especially for Orthodox?
According to Richard Elliott Friedman, the Hebrew text contains subtle puns that suggest and highlight connections, for example the names of the rivers of Eden pun on words relating to serpents, crawling in dust, knowledge [of good & evil], and life.

Such puns might suggest, say, that everything that happened in Eden was somehow related to the rivers, and or foreknown??? IDK, but the original Hebrew apparently contained puns and other linguistic layers of meaning which could never be translated into Greek.

A back-translated reconstructed 3rd century BC Hebrew OT would be a work of man, but would be great Scriptural food for thought, and would probably help clarify a few of the more obscure verses
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
I giant rush of water wouldn't make U-turns.
It does make atheists because many people feel pressured to believe in an Old Earth and evolution instead of believing it's all a conspiracy.
So why did you give in to that pressure ? (that looks like the real issue from the op and your other posts)

It is more difficult to believe the truth and to resist that pressure , for many people , but it is still best to never compromise the truth.
 
Upvote 0

gzt

The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.07 billion years
Jul 14, 2004
10,600
1,873
Abolish ICE
Visit site
✟118,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
The measure of truth isn't how hard you have to resist everybody else to believe it. Sometimes it's hard to believe something (eg: that the earth is only a few thousand years old) and everything else seems to contradict it (eg: rather minimal assumptions plus the observations we have yield a very consistent explanation that the world is really really old while no set of assumptions plus the observations we have are consistent with the world being really really young) because one explanation is right and if it weren't it would just make no sense - because it involves adding a theological assumption that God misleads us and makes it hard to reconcile reality with "theological truth". Meanwhile, it's perfectly reasonable to say, ah, the world is old and God is real.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,563
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,467,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
it's only God misleading if your starting reference is outside of those who actually know God. seeing as how the saints throughout the ages have been remarkably consistent, it's only misleading when someone needs it to be.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rusmeister
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,563
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,467,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
and yet, all the ones that do, have rejected evolution.

and yes, we do go in circles. when you instigate by needlessly trying to get your digs into those of us who believe in a young earth, you are going to get a response.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Tutorman
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,407
5,026
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟435,770.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Hi, gz,
You are being just as dogmatic and unreasonable as the YEC’s you condemn (and I do not consider myself one such; I am only fully ready to accept the idea).
I have laid out the essential philosophical point that you have no response to:it is an undeniable fact that you hold modern education and modern science and scientists as fully truth-bearing and incapable of error as the consensus of the Church fathers across history, and to all appearances as more so. Your reliance is on worldly wisdom and knowledge as claimed and taught by this world, and an absolute necessity to synthesize it with Church Tradition, even to the point of denying what practically all have agreed on across history. Your trust is in the princes of this world, those that have taught you what the world knows, and you seem unable to give it up in the face of possible contradiction, even to ignoring and outright denying the clear contradictions. Only you have the power to change your own mind. If you set your will against it, no one can change it for you. But it seems clear to me that the wisest course for any Christian is to become a baby again, to trust the Church, to trust that common consensus that all the old women in Russia, the Middle East, and Greece, to name a few, need no formal education of any kind to accept. That is not clear to you, evidently, and I say this as one who enjoys using my God-given intellect. But I know where to tell my own intellect to let go, and recognize its own limitations.
 
Upvote 0

Jackson Cooper

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2017
609
182
Nowhere
✟37,463.00
Country
Afghanistan
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
what treatment exactly? there are no current things we find that conflict with young earth creation. the only things that conflict are if I accept evolution and an old earth first. plus, only God was actually there to witness what went down, and He has been remarkably anti-evolution.
Ignore all evidence then. Measurements and evidence doesn't matter when figuring out the past.

If YEC were true, there would be concrete explanations for things like how Koala bears got to Australia after a global flood, instead of weak explanations intended to comfort those who already believe it.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,563
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,467,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Ignore all evidence then. Measurements and evidence doesn't matter when figuring out the past.

If YEC were true, there would be concrete explanations for things like how Koala bears got to Australia after a global flood, instead of weak explanations intended to comfort those who already believe it.

I don't ignore all evidence. I disagree with the presupposition that you use when you look at the evidence.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jackson Cooper

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2017
609
182
Nowhere
✟37,463.00
Country
Afghanistan
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Indeed it is hard not to.
Most of us, including most bishops, have received a modern, not classical education, which has an atmosphere and is founded n certain philosophical assumptions which are never stated, but can be found in the rules, regulations and requirements covering teaching and the schools and are in fact essentially atheist and materialist. And private schools are no help, as a rule, because they mimic and imitate the structure and even curriculum of the public schools. This means that anyone in the Church, even a bishop, can be a sincere believer in the Church, AND hold ideas incompatible with Church teaching, unawares. The philosophical assumptions are assumed, and rarely thought out.

The basic assumption evolutionists hold is that “most scientists seem to affirm it, and the textbooks tell us of mountains of evidence, and what we see seems to bear it out, therefrore it is true fact, as certain as the statement that Jesus is Lord”. Now there ARE mountains of evidence - of something - but it is the interpretations and conclusions drawn by people trained in the philosophical assumptions in an education system not designed to give what our ancestors would call an education at all that we would question. In short, modern education is dust and ashes. It has not taught us truth, our college degrees are largely worthless, the philosophies have no love of wisdom, the teachings in the natural sciences regarding what has not, and cannot be observed, teach an erroneous narrative, and most, f not all of us, are full of ideas born in agnosticism and atheism, hostile to the revealed revelation of the Church, and the wisdom of the Church fathers.

The modern must essentially return to Socrates’ “I know nothing”, to the innocence and faith of a little child - not in modern schools and universities, or the priests of the religion of our time (scientists), but in the traditional teachings of the Church. To be Orthodox is to be traditional by definition, and to sneer at tradition, above all Holy Tradition, is to reject Orthodoxy and (if one continues to claim the name) to become a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

Science is useful - in its place. It can help us build and make many useful things, and understand fascinating things about God’s Creation. But it ought not to be worshiped, or placed on a pedestal giving its adherents equal authority to that of the Church fathers in our understandings of what truth is. We are fools if we think we know better than the fathers, if we think we have any kind of superiority because we live today. And many are indeed such fools. The only way to be sure of avoiding that is to say that “If my ideas contradict the Church and consensus of the fathers, then it is my ideas that are wrong, not theirs”.

When in doubt, ask the fathers. Your (and my) formal education is worthless next to them.
I have not seen a single YEC biologist perform decently in any debate. I used to be YEC, and the failure of YEC biologists is probably what got me out of it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gzt
Upvote 0

Jackson Cooper

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2017
609
182
Nowhere
✟37,463.00
Country
Afghanistan
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I don't ignore all evidence. I disagree with the presupposition that you use when you look at the evidence.
If you didn't ignore the evidence, then you'd come up with detailed explanations for a YEC model.
Nobody has done that. Things like 'how the Kangaroos got to Australia despite no land bridge existing in a post-flood ice age' get waived off with weak and broad explanations. YEC always avoid details out of fear.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gzt
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,563
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,467,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
You cannot prove George Washington ever existed.
"Were you there?" -Ken Ham.

well you actually can. people knew and wrote of him in addition to what he has left behind himself.

plus this is irrelevant to the point I made.
 
Upvote 0

Jackson Cooper

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2017
609
182
Nowhere
✟37,463.00
Country
Afghanistan
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Right. That’s what I’ve read, but it doesn’t completely work for me :) That said, some versions of evolution would make more sense to me than others. The version where macroevolution occurred, yet humans were still created by God directly (not evolving from another species) makes more sense to me than other versions of evolution, since we are made in God’s image.

Even so, God cares for sparrow, came to save the cosmos, not just humanity, and designed paradise to have peace even among animals (lion and lamb, etc)...
I don't think God values animals very highly as we can eat as many of them as we desire.
They can be killed and eaten as carelessly as cabbages.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,563
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,467,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
If you didn't ignore the evidence, then you'd come up with detailed explanations for a YEC model.
Nobody has done that. Things like 'how the Kangaroos got to Australia despite no land bridge existing in a post-flood ice age' get waived off with weak and broad explanations. YEC always avoid details out of fear.

no, if God can lead the animals to the ark, He can certainly lead them wherever He wanted to after the Flood.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Tutorman
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,563
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,467,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I don't think God values animals very highly as we can eat as many of them as we desire.
They can be killed and eaten as carelessly as cabbages.

that's actually theologically incorrect. He loves every aspect of His creation.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: ~Anastasia~
Upvote 0