I dont know what to do with my terrible 2

[benedictaoo]

For no reason earlier he tossed a pooh bear doll at me because I asked him to help me with an art project I was trying to involve him in to keep him amused. He stomped and threw the doll at me. He's ALWAYS testing my patience. Then he tossed my dust pan across the room not at me but just in anger a little later. He's just...bad.

NO! Please stop thinking that. This is not about YOU, he is not out for you and he is not bad.

Some where down the line, you gave him too much power and he just does not know what do with it at age 2.

and do not give him more by asking him his permission.

When that happens, say, look we can do this if you like, if not, you can do this, this or this. If he acts up, then warn him, say, no we do not act this way and if you do it again, you will go into time out.

If he does it again, put him in time out and if he runs out, put him back, as many times as you have to. No reaction to hitting, screaming, throwing, none of it- just put him back until he knows he is not getting away with not getting the time out.

Eventually when you say, 'you will be put in time out', he will then choose to do what you expect him to do. He will then know what is expected of him and know that you no longer accept his outburst.

 

[Catherineanne]

Ohhh..me too! It's been quite a journey for me. Learning how to really look at each kid individually and their personal development.

What has helped me with that second part is really understanding that I DO have authority-given to me by God, and it is right and just for me to exercise that authority. If I misuse my authority--I apologise for my actions.

This is right, as long as we understand WHAT authority we have. Imo, we have the authority to model for our children what an adult does, and how an adult copes with life. They will learn from us, so we need to be very careful what we demonstrate to them as adult behaviour.

Therefore we do not have the authority simply to boss our children around (and I know you were not saying that, but some people might think it), but we do have the authority to say, in effect, this is not a time to negotiate, this is a time for me to say, 'this is going to happen', and then to make it happen.

Toothbrushing is one example. It simply has to happen, so by all means arrange a time, and use a countdown. If that does not work, then pick the child up, calmly take them to the bathroom, brush their teeth for them, and then put them down and praise them as if they chose to go for themselves, and did not resist. If they find out that good behaviour gains praise, they will be good next time.

I never once let my d know when she was small that she had ever done anything wrong. I simply put her right, and then praised her for being good; as a result she got the message that she was very good, and always did as she was told. Funnily enough, that is how she then behaved. She never found out what 'naughty' meant in relation to herself, and so there was no way she could actually be naughty.

The sad thing is, if you tell a child that he is naughty, he will believe you, and he will start to disobey, defy and generally misbehave. He simply does not know what else to do.

 

[benedictaoo]

I am sorry, but this is not acceptable, imo.

It is not appropriate to label a perfectly ordinary little boy as potentially ODD. We are not doctors, and we do not have the right to throw this kind of comment around, about a little boy that we do not know, but who, to my mind at least, is behaving perfectly normally for a toddler with a new sibling in the family.

Less pathologising, therefore. More understanding of what 'normal' is, in relation to a very confused, very frustrated little boy.

Catherineanne, please understand, seriously- this is a REAL condition and it is valid. Not saying this is the case but if mom has a gut- then she needs to listen to it.

BUT-- know that if this is the case and it needs to be evaluated by a professional who knows what they are doing- it is only a symptom of something else.

No kid is JUST Oppositional, it always comes with something else.

 

[Davidnic]

I am sorry, but this is not acceptable, imo.

It is not appropriate to label a perfectly ordinary little boy as potentially ODD. We are not doctors, and we do not have the right to throw this kind of comment around, about a little boy that we do not know, but who, to my mind at least, is behaving perfectly normally for a toddler with a new sibling in the family.

Less pathologising, therefore. More understanding of what 'normal' is, in relation to a very confused, very frustrated little boy.

Did not say he was, likely that is not it. He's really too young for that to be it, but consulting the pediatrician and other experts on how his behavior fits into the developmental age group is a wise move. There are a range of things it can be, although likely it is just being two.

Notice I say make a list and consult the ped if developmental abnormality is a concern. He/she will know, we don't know the boy. Sorry if that came across a different way. I can edit for clarity.

 

[benedictaoo]

Just a suggestion since I never really went through this .

You said


Do not speak of yourself in the third person - you should say something more along the lines of

you A it's toothbrushing time , come upstairs and I'll help you .

If he says 'No' then you tell him

"I make the rules - it's toothbrushing time , we are going upstairs NOW "and you take his hand and take him upstairs and brush his teeth - let him scream blue murder , but you have to show him directly that it's your house and you make the rules whether he likes it or not.

If you say "Mommy's going to help you brush your teeth, okay?" you are asking him a question and being a toddler he's going to challenge you and say [ and mean it ] "No"

Using the words 'Mommy' and 'I' in the same sentence when they both refer to you is confusing for him . 'Mommy' is how your husband refers to you when he's talking of you to your son.

This may or may not work - you have to try it and you must be consistent in all your dealings with him. If you say it's bed time at 7pm - then it's bedtime - no ifs or buts - that's when you take him upstairs and put him to bed even if he's in the middle of something .

It's up to you and your husband to set the ground rules and you really do have to keep to them - he can tell when you are wavering and he'll play up to it because he loves getting his own way - you can't afford to let him do this. Yes he's still jealous of the wee one and this is his way of showing it - being a brat .

Exactly- never ask him permission.

 

[Catherineanne]

Catherineanne, please understand, seriously- this is a REAL condition and it is valid.

Indeed it is. But only a doctor has the right to diagnose.

Diagnosis by internet is very, very mischievous indeed. This little boy is NORMAL. His mother has enough problems already, without us pathologising her son. Imo, that pathologising is very little short of evil.

Anyone; if you are not a doctor, step away from the diagnoses. For one thing, a doctor would know better than to diagnose by internet.

 

[_Shannon_]

For me--I try everything--absolutely everything I know to do, and only then start looking at some sort of "other" diagnosis. Some sort of medical aspect to things.

I just read a great article which interviewed this doctor about ODD, OCD, and ADHD...and that it's not genetic, but rather a developmental response. There is obviously controversy about that -- certainly not everything that goes wrong is the fault of nurturing..but his supposition is that so much of this stems from parents being stressed and detatched and so the brain patterns devloping coping mechanisms to compensate and deal with a state of perpetual stress on the very young.

I don't know that I agree entirely or even in large part, but I do think it re-emphasizes just how important parenting is (as humans we are born very premature in relation to all other mammals and so, SO much brain development is happening outside the womb, rather than inside)

 

[Catherineanne]

Did not say he was, likely that is not it. He's really too young for that to be it, but consulting the pediatrician and other experts on how his behavior fits into the developmental age group is a wise move. There are a range of things it can be, although likely it is just being two.

Notice I say make a list and consult the ped if developmental abnormality is a concern. He/she will know, we don't know the boy. Sorry if that came across a different way. I can edit for clarity.

There is absolutely nothing in what has been said of this boy to indicate that he is anything other than normal. If he were 9 or 10 his behaviour would be outside normal range. As a 2 yo, it is not.

Consult a pediatrician, by all means, but they will not unnecessarily pathologise a normal little boy, and neither should we. The mother already thinks her boy is bad. That kind of thinking does not need any encouragement whatsoever.

 

[Davidnic]

Ohhh..me too! It's been quite a journey for me. Learning how to really look at each kid individually and their personal development.

What has helped me with that second part is really understanding that I DO have authority-given to me by God, and it is right and just for me to exercise that authority. If I misuse my authority--I apologise for my actions. And secondly--to understand that I have to have an adult emotional life, so that I am in a position to facilitate their learning. I have to be the one to provide the skills and tools to move forward into the next developmental stage. And that is HARD--because it means that I have to have an ongoing commitment to being the best Shannon that I can be. And that is really, really tough--always being my own work in progress.

I have found that two things that keep me grounded in my relationship to her (being the father of a daughter) is that no matter how much I look at her developmentally individual with her own progression and levels of ability is to remember are two things from the book Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters:

1. I am the first man she will love
2. Be the man I want her to marry

Remembering that who I am to her and our relationship will effect her life forever keep something special constantly present.

 

[Davidnic]

There is absolutely nothing in what has been said of this boy to indicate that he is anything other than normal. If he were 9 or 10 his behaviour would be outside normal range. As a 2 yo, it is not.

Consult a pediatrician, by all means, but they will not unnecessarily pathologise a normal little boy, and neither should we. The mother already thinks her boy is bad. That kind of thinking does not need any encouragement whatsoever.

No one is encouraging anything, we are laying out all options...including seeing a professional with her concerns. the child is both morally and psychologically incapable of being "bad" right now.

Neither you or I can rule anything in or out because we do not know him. We only know him through an, admittedly by the mother, stressed out description of his actions. And yes they are actions that seem perfectly normal.

But you know, you can not say it is not something else just as I am very clear no one but a ped can say if it is. So she should look at all the advice, try some of the parenting strategies and take her concerns to a Ped to rule out any physiological cause. Anything wrong with that?

 

[benedictaoo]

Look folks, my son had behaviors that I knew was not right. He was not mean or violent but his stand offs with me was outside the norm.

I listened to everybody who said, 'oh there's nothing wrong with him, you just need to do X Y or Z...'

well there was/is something more then just normal.

Ignoring it was the crucial mistake.

A mother knows if something is not right.

I have the benefit of a before and after. My son is now 21 years old and I know now his behaviors were not normal. I wish I would've address it then but in the early 90's there was not as much known as there is now.

 

[benedictaoo]

Indeed it is. But only a doctor has the right to diagnose.

Diagnosis by internet is very, very mischievous indeed. This little boy is NORMAL. His mother has enough problems already, without us pathologising her son. Imo, that pathologising is very little short of evil.

Anyone; if you are not a doctor, step away from the diagnoses. For one thing, a doctor would know better than to diagnose by internet.

Ah, I said that and no one diagnosed him.

But when a mother says something is not right- we need to start listening.

If he is diagnosed professionally, I want people to know, it is not it- OD comes as a tag along.

 

[_Shannon_]

Oh--yes indeed--I don't mean to down play a mother's intuition. I think it's powerful juju.

But, in there as well--is a vitally important step of learning what the range of normal developmentally appropriate behaviour is. Lots of people--through their own upbringing or because society is weird about what kids should and should not be doing--have a very faulty understanding of the scope of normal behaviours. But I think a mother's gut instincts should never be downplayed or outright dismissed, we know stuff.

 

[Davidnic]

Indeed it is. But only a doctor has the right to diagnose.

Diagnosis by internet is very, very mischievous indeed. This little boy is NORMAL. His mother has enough problems already, without us pathologising her son. Imo, that pathologising is very little short of evil.

Anyone; if you are not a doctor, step away from the diagnoses. For one thing, a doctor would know better than to diagnose by internet.

No one is diagnosing anyone. You are reading into things that are not there. And given how damaging internet psychobable can be I do not blame you being on guard against it.

Both people who mentioned ODD also mentioned that at this age it is not likely that. And that she should see a doctor if she is concerned.

What is the problem with that suggestion?

 

[Catherineanne]

Anything wrong with that?

Imo, yes. Putting an idea in her head that her boy may have a disorder.

There is absolutely no justification whatever for suggesting such a thing. There is NOTHING that she has said to indicate that he is anything other than perfectly normal, or her either, for that matter. The child is confused and frustrated, and the mother is overstressed, and is very rightly looking for advice; that in itself proves that she loves her son and wants the right thing for him.

Here it is again: only a doctor has the right to diagnose. Speculation by anyone else in this particular situation is mischievous at best, and could do a lot more harm than good in making this mother even more fearful than she already is. She needs reassurance, not ideas about what may be 'wrong' with her son.

 

[Davidnic]

Lots of people--through their own upbringing or because society is weird about what kids should and should not be doing--have a very faulty understanding of the scope of normal behaviours.

It is a widespread thing. People want to think of kids as either totally helpless or perfectly capable of adult decisions. It is a strange thing at times.

I have found, and I stated this in other threads, that the sign language is good at a young age. Vocabulary is power. A kid is so stressed out when they can not express what they think and feel. Give them more words and stress seems to go down exponentially.

 

[Catherineanne]

What is the problem with that suggestion?

Once again; it gives the mother something to worry about without any good reason whatever. And it gives her a negative label for her son, about whom she already has negative thoughts.

There is nothing good about this.

 

[_Shannon_]

Okay--let's diffuse and NOT have to get the last word here.

We all agree we are not doctors, and only a doctor can diagnose a medical condition. A pediatrician can't even diagnose ADHD, autism, ODD, or OCD--only a childhood mental health professional should make that diagnosis.

We all know that these disorders are out there and exist. It's not like someone saying something somehow magically plants an insurmountable obstacle in the way of a momma. If someone has the gut instinct that things are beyond or outside of normal--then it is a wise first step to talk to one's pediatrician. Shoot--gathering information is almost never a bad thing, it might in fact yield to an understanding that things are "normal" and don't need therapy or drugs, but just parenting.

None of us really disagrees entirely with another--so we can just let this go now, right?

 

[Davidnic]

Okay--let's diffuse and NOT have to get the last word here.

We all agree we are not doctors, and only a doctor can diagnose a medical condition. A pediatrician can't even diagnose ADHD, autism, ODD, or OCD--only a childhood mental health professional should make that diagnosis.

We all know that these disorders are out there and exist. It's not like someone saying something somehow magically plants an insurmountable obstacle in the way of a momma. If someone has the gut instinct that things are beyond or outside of normal--then it is a wise first step to talk to one's pediatrician. Shoot--gathering information is almost never a bad thing, it might in fact yield to an understanding that things are "normal" and don't need therapy or drugs, but just parenting.

None of us really disagrees entirely with another--so we can just let this go now, right?

Yep. I am even willing to edit my post that she finds so upsetting to: If you have a developmental concern see a doctor to rule it out. I fully agree with catherineanne on internet diagnosis and it is not my desire to do that, so if it is even a little confusing I will edit it. So it is now:

If you have a developmental concern see a doctor to rule it out.

And the rest exactly as it was:

It could also just be that he wants your attention and senses your anger as attention. If he does it mostly when you are around it could be that his desire for your attention because of the pregnancy and new baby is getting crossed. By that I mean for him there is no difference between good and bad attention.

So he has to learn the difference between what gets good attention and what gets bad. The problem there is bad attention is still attention and he is not differentiating.

Does he have favorite toys or activities that can be removed when he is bad. I know someone who had a similar problem and they would take away a favorite toy or outfit for each bad behavior and they got them back if they behaved for a specified length of time. Always long enough to be noticed. So they could lose 5 things and it takes 4 hours to get one back. So you can lose 5-10 things in a few moments and it takes days to get them back. It worked for her. A basic deprivation of privilege. Team it with not letting anger show. It seems he is seeing anger as attention and aiming to create it.

 

[WarriorAngel]

We had people [in laws] here for Christmas Eve...
my 2 YO nephew was completely out of control...

He even elbowed his baby brother who is now 1 - and threw him to the floor and he hit his small head. Then he ran laughing because he knew he did wrong.
His mom made him apologize and he did, but then back to the bad behavior.

He was smashing my kids head phones and i asked him to look me in the eyes [which he refused] and he squirmed to get away as i was telling him he wouldnt like anyone breaking his new toys - would he?

He tore up magnets [people gave us as gifts] - he climbed up to get off the top of the fridge and then chewed them up.

He was smacking and smashing everything - while i was getting things ready to serve. His mom doesnt believe in punishment so much - just reasoning with him - so i had to run after him and say 'no' quite frequently because she needs a break she leaves it up to me to do this while i am trying to host.

I was thankful it was time for him to go home... i love him ... but i raised my kids and they behaved at peoples houses if i told them no. Seldom did i have to give them a time out. Most people said how well behaved my kids were.

His little brother is following his foot steps though.
I see alot of misbehavior not going in check... even dangerous behavior - when the oldest [now 2] was a bit younger he would crawl into the fridge - they had to get a lock on it.

He climbs up on everything... she complains she does everything she can [via experts] and he still does not behave.
He is like ADHD or something.

I actually secretly wish they would not visit til this phase ends - if it ends. Absolutely out of control... positively. So if that makes me mean for not wanting to chase after a kid every minute - o well.
She talks to him - she tries reasoning with him - to no avail. Heads up - 2 year olds dont reason.

He has this smirk on his cute little face that says 'Ahhhh - something to get into...'
And off he goes... into something.

I dont remember the kids terrible twos being this bad... except my daughter - but she was mostly mouthy to me.

Maybe it is ADHD - maybe a doctor could check that. I dont know how they could tell. Blood work?