I don't know if I can be friends with "real" christians

[WilbertK]

Hi there,

I want to start off with a couple of asides. I do have friends who call themselves christians. I don't want to let my philosophical ponderings ruin friendships. Also, I live in a country (the Netherlands) where most people don't actively practice religion. So in a lot of cases I don't even know if people are religious. It just doesn't come up.

That being said, I sometimes actively seek out discussion with christians (and other believers too), and when I do, the following often crosses my mind.
If you do believe in a literal hell, and you believe that because I'm an atheist I will spend eternity there (which is what I mean by being a "real" christian), you can do one of two things:
1) Not bother to try to save me
If you would choose this option, I would have to doubt whether you're actually my friend. If you do actually believe I'm going to be tortured for eternity, and you're actually my friend, wouldn't you constantly be begging me to come to my senses?
2) Constantly be trying to save me
Which would be, to put it mildly, annoying. At least after a while.

Both options would prevent us from becoming (good) friends, I think. Now, as I said, in practice, I haven't experienced any problems with this. Because just about every christian I meet will tell me they believe that if I'm living a good life, I will still go to heaven, or something along these lines. This makes it a non-issue. But I've often wondered what would happen if a good friend of mine was to actually believe I would go to hell. I don't know if I could be friends with them anymore, because of the reason described above. Does that make me a bigot?

Please tell me what you think.

Regards,

Wilbert

 

[jehoiakim]

ehhhhhh maybe..... I believe in a literal hell, but I am more of the annihilationhist perspective which is a little easier to swallow. In that interpretation hell is eventually consumed in the lake of fire and nothing remains. It actually seems to fit the scriptures quite well and verses that supposedly contradict it could be easily interpreted to mean something else altogether.

Anyways, yes it is true as a Christian I would be hopeful for ways to communicate the gospel with you, but there are many of us who are very different in how we approach it. For instance I have friends who are atheists and of other faiths. They know I disagree, but it isn't like religion is all we ever talk about. When are are more personal I share what is going on in my life and how I interpret it so I am showing others how I think, but I am not beating them over the head with it. I grew up going to private Christian school and I saw many people turn away because they weren't ready to hear it and they were continually beat over the head with it and it made them bitter. So while I look for opprtunities to share I am very careful how I go about it. I also try not to speak about my beliefs as fact, but as "what I believe." I look for common ground to build on, arguing over stuff that is clearly not where either of us are willing to budge is unproductive.

For example my brother in law is an athiest, and my sister in law is "spiritual" it is more nee age then anything. They go to a Unitarian church. They just had a baby dedication and we went to support them. There was no mention about God in the service at all, and it was really a celebration of humanism. While I considered the service sad and empty, I was glad at least they have a community that supports them. Sadly I must also admit that I think they loved each other better then the average christian church does, which was both an inspiration and something I could take with me and a challenge. It is hard that we don't agree, it is harder still that many people these days need to understand disagreement as the end of a friendship when it is an opportunity to have conversation and learn. We don't push the envelope to much with my brother and sister in law right now because they have been hurt by Christianity and we respect that, but in the same turn they are becoming more comfortable and respectful of us more so then anyone else in the family (even though we are the only Christians) because we show them respect and love. They enjoyed our easter/passover last year that was very God heavy, but it wasn't forcing anyone to participate, it was more informative. That is how we shared the gospel, no pressure, just as sort of a documentary in how we live and not as a manipulative back you into the corner guilt trip. Friends who disagree with you challenge you and grow you. As long as they are caring, respectful and loving in their disagreement it is tolerable.

I don't know if anything I say was helpful or not. While I do have non-christian friends, most of them however are on a more shallow basis just because we don't have as much in common. It is not that I wouldn't want to be their friends at all, it's just kind of hard when you don't have a lot in common.

 

[jehoiakim]

PS..

No I don't think it makes you a bigot, I disagree with you but you are just thinking things out and trying to make logical conclusions which is more than I can say for most people.

 

[WilbertK]

Thank you very much for your response. It's very helpful. I think it's wonderful to hear that people who disagree can still respect and love each other very much. I wouldn't wish for a moment to change any of that. So please don't take the following as an attempt to guilt you into changing your attitude. I don't think you need to. I don't want you to destroy your friendships, even though it may sound like I do. I just want to understand your beliefs.

If you don't mind, I'd like to question you some more, because I still don't understand exactly how you feel about believing that your loved ones will miss out on heaven. Does that bother you? Do you think there is a chance that you can convince them of your position? And if you do think that there is such a chance, don't you think you owe it to them to do anything in your power to try to help them get to heaven? By being nice to them, and not pressing the issue, aren't you just taking the easy route? Wouldn't it, in the grand scheme of things, be much nicer of you if you did anything you could to help save them, even if that were to ruin your personal relationship?

 

[jehoiakim]

1.yes it bothers me, or course it does and nothing in my life matter sto me more than my faith and sharing what I believe is the truth of God

2. I do believe there is a chance they might change, if it is presented in a non threatening way, as they are ready to hear it, not in a pushy way because that closes doors and impedes their openness to even consider the matter.

3. I owe it to them to share when I can, but anything in my power is just the thing, if I abuse a power it will be seen for what it is, manipulation, not genuine caring and I want no part of manipulating anyone. Manipulation only backfires and even if it "saves someone" it will backfire later because it wasn't achieved honestly

4. So lets imagine I am a fire hose and someone is dying of thrust. I can leave it on a low setting so you can drink, or I can turn it on full blast and give you all the water you need at once. Am I satisfying your thrust or shooting you across the room with the pressure of the fire hose, seriously injuring you in other ways while you continue to die of thrust. I don't see away ruining my personal relationship with someone can help save them. I am there to constantly bring in a digestible amount of truth through a trickle and you can drink it or not. If I turn it on full blast and ruin my relationship with you it isn't going to do you any good is it.

 

[WilbertK]

Again, thank you for your replies. I appreciate them very much. I do, however, have some additional questions.

Would I be right in concluding that you would consider it the duty of my hypothetical "real" christian friend to at least periodically bring up god and related concepts in discussions? What would you think of our friendship if that hypothetical friend was to give up on saving me altogether, and never bring up their belief at all?

 

[jehoiakim]

I think it would be quite sad to give up all together, as for bringing it up yes but I can bring things up by talking about myself and not directing it at you. You are an intellegant human being and are capable of applying the same conclusions to yourself. There is no need to push further. My job is to plant seeds so I throw them they land where they land. I can't grow them that isn't my job and it would be silly to try. If for instance you see that I am not pushing you to believe anything but I am open in a non threatening way you would be more willing to ask what you are ready to hear and answer for you are leading the conversation I just bring things up and where we go with them when we talk about my faith is you journey not mine. I walk next to you and point things out that's all. Some may do it in an annoying way some may do it in a way that you don't mind at all and I don't think you can lump everyone together you have to deal with it on a person by person level

 

[jehoiakim]

My friend you basically keep asking questions that are quite similar for clarity sake. I think you are trying hard to connect dots that often go together but do not always need to go together.

 

[WilbertK]

My questions are quite similar indeed. I'm rephrasing them to check if I'm not projecting my own views of christianity onto you. I'm sorry if that makes you feel like you're repeating yourself. That isn't my intention.

I'm still having trouble imagining what it would feel like to have to worry about your friends going to hell. I don't think I could cope with that without being obsessive about it. But I do see how you could justify not bringing the matter up all that often, without giving up on me. That means that I can now see how it is possible for someone to really believe in hell, actually believe I'm going there, really be my friend, want to prevent me from going there, and still feel justified in not going on about it. The only thing I still don't understand is how you can feel joy while carrying this burden.

My sincere thanks for your contributions. They have been very helpful, and are very much appreciated.

 

[jehoiakim]

That is where having faith that an all loving God comes into play. I can relieve myself of the need to feel guilty for things that are out of my control and trust in his plan. If I have tried my hardest in the manner I described then anything more is out of my control and I must release it. It would however be quite difficult to live in heaven knowing that others were suffering which is part of why annihilationism gives me comfort that it will not be forever that a man suffers. CS Lewis a former atheist himself paints some interesting thoughts on hell as well in "the great divorce." I don't mind repeating myself by the way I was just unsure if perhaps I was communicating poorly or perhaps you had a deeper question you were meaning to ask and were not sure how to phrase it. Ps I apologies in advance of any spelling mistakes or other confusion u might have by reading this my iPhone tends to make a lot of annoying auto corrections and it is hard to scroll through to edit them right now. I will try to do so later

 

[WilbertK]

I can relieve myself of the need to feel guilty for things that are out of my control and trust in his plan. [...] It would however be quite difficult to live in heaven knowing that others were suffering which is part of why annihilationism gives me comfort that it will not be forever that a man suffers.

Does this mean that you don't expect heaven to be perfect? And do you expect God's plan to be revealed to you when you are in heaven?

perhaps you had a deeper question you were meaning to ask and were not sure how to phrase it.

Maybe that is true as well. I'm not a native English speaker, and may not be able to convey my thoughts as well as I think I do. Also, I may not be entirely conscious of why exactly I'm curious about christianity. But I try to be as open as I can.

auto corrections [...] idiot

I see.

Again, thanks for your response.

 

[jehoiakim]

1. no I expect heaven will be perfect? I don't think I understand why your getting at or how you drew that conclusion.

2. I figured it was my inability to answer more than anything

3. Idiot.. haha exactly it was supposed to be edit, sorry

 

[bling]

I also believe in hell, but I also am an annihilationist yet some people will spend some time being punished for their continued rejection of the Creator’s help. Those that go to hell would not be happy in heaven since they have repeatedly shown while here on earth they do not like unconditional Love (charity) and would not like to be totally unselfish (they enjoy self-gratification). Heaven is a huge Love Feast but the only Love is this Godly type Love (Charity).

I can’t “save you”, but I can help you to decide if you want or do not want this Love, by showing you Love and concern, allowing you to see and experience it. I would not nag you about hell (as an atheist you do not believe in hell), but I would want you to experience God’s Love working through me. I might invite you to go with me the orphan homes, intercity work, discussion groups, and other activities where others and I serve. If you do not like to witness unconditional Love then you will not be happy around real Christians, but not because they will nag you.

 

[WilbertK]

no I expect heaven will be perfect? I don't think I understand why your getting at or how you drew that conclusion

You say that in heaven, you would be comforted by annihilationism. Needing comfort seems to me to imply that you feel some kind of pain or grief. I suppose I expect you would still rather have wanted all your friends to be with you in heaven. I mean, it could still be great, but if not all your loved ones are there, I don't think I can see how you can expect it to be perfect. Or maybe I have a different notion of what is perfect than you have.

 

[WilbertK]

Those that go to hell would not be happy in heaven

Hi, thank you for your response. This line triggered my interest. Presumably you think I'm going to hell for being an atheist. I don't think I understand your view of heaven and hell. What would I experience in heaven that would be so unappealing to me that I would rather be tortured and then annihilated?

 

[jehoiakim]

You say that in heaven, you would be comforted by annihilationism. Needing comfort seems to me to imply that you feel some kind of pain or grief. I suppose I expect you would still rather have wanted all your friends to be with you in heaven. I mean, it could still be great, but if not all your loved ones are there, I don't think I can see how you can expect it to be perfect. Or maybe I have a different notion of what is perfect than you have.

Contray to popular believe and mainstream Christianity will acknowledge, Christianity does not teach that you go to heaven immediately after you die/ For instance in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, the rich man went to "Abraham's Bosom, also called Paradise or Gan Eden, which is a waiting place until we receive our new bodies. Those who die without Christ go to Gehenna, one of the words translated as Hell in the scripture. This is our classic understanding of Hell. These people to await a final judgement but have not yet received it. This is going to get rather complicated so I hope you will bear with me.

When the end of days comes, after the tribulation, Christ establishes a kingdom on earth called the millennial reign, the millennial Sabbath or the messianic kingdom, all the same thing. Here are the survivors of the tribulation/end of days who were non-beleivers and also this is where those who have trusted in Christ or waited in Paradise receive their new immortal bodies and reign with Christ for a thousand years and teach those who remained, the mortals about God. (some say that the millennial reign is symbolic and spiritual but it doesn't seem to fit the scriptures to my understanding) While this happens in the millennial reign, Hell still exists with the non-believers suffering in a place where they are absent from the presence of God. At the end of the millennium there is another rebellion and final victory and a final judgement.

Then those who were in hell are resurrected for the final judgement. Some have suggested at this point since it says judgement that some might possibly be able to repent and believe and have a final opportunity to repent before hell is thrown into "the lake of fire" and consumed. (This is kind of like catholic purgatory in a way in that view.) Regardless that is when the "new heavens and the new earth" are created also called heaven. In heaven it finally will be perfect and the book of revelation tells us God will wipe away every tear from our eyes and there will be no more sadness or mourning. If God had not thrown Gehenna into the lake of fire to be annihilated I would have a hard time understanding how I could have every tear wiped from my eye for those I love. If those who were in hell have one final choice, to repent or be annihilated and they chose annihilation how could it upset me because they chose it and at least they would no longer be suffering in hell.

does that clear anything up?


I could also get really weird on you...
try this one...
Jehoiakim's Blog: September 2011

 

[WilbertK]

At the end of the millennium there is another rebellion and final victory and a final judgement. [...] Some have suggested at this point since it says judgement that some might possibly be able to repent and believe and have a final opportunity to repent before hell is thrown into "the lake of fire" and consumed. [...]
does that clear anything up?

Maybe. Does this mean that you believe that even though I'm an atheist, I can still get to heaven, if I come to understand the nature of God in the time that I will spend in hell?

 

[jehoiakim]

I am not sure what I believe on that accept that I hope so, and I at least think it might be scripturally possible. That isn't orthodox however, most Christians believe once you are in hell, the judgement that gets hell thrown into "the lake of fire" is a redundant one and you cannot get out of it.

 

[WilbertK]

I am not sure what I believe on that accept that I hope so, and I at least think it might be scripturally possible. That isn't orthodox however, most Christians believe once you are in hell, the judgement that gets hell thrown into "the lake of fire" is a redundant one and you cannot get out of it.

And again, thank you very much. I can see how this idea would be comforting. But it also would mean that you have an extra reason for not worrying too much about whether or not I would change my mind about god in this lifetime. I guess that someone who believed I would have no chance at all of getting out of hell would be more hard pressed to convince me of the error of my ways. I'm curious to know what other people think. Especially people who do think that hell is eternal. That may change the matter substantially.

 

[jehoiakim]

It might, but I'm going to get very weird on you here. I had a vision experience in which I experienced something I believe to have been similar to hell. It messed with my head quite a bit.. if you are curious you can read about it here. My sister in law who is a psychologigist (the Unitarian one) described it as something psychosis like, but she could not explain all the spiritual coincidences afterwards I don't think I wrote much abotu in the following exerpt

Jehoiakim's Blog: The Vision that Changed my Life!

but basically since I had this experience I would genuinely want any man to suffer what I experienced. No even the most vile of men and I trembled with fear for days, so even if you can get out of it, I wouldn't want anyone to be there... period