I don't care if you think abortion is wrong.

[Lisa0315]

I am pretty sure that the woman does not get charged with a crime if she unwittingly sees an unlicensed practitioner for her abortion. I could be wrong, though.

As to the other, it goes towards intent. If the parents want to carry the child, then it is murder. If the mother is on the way to the abortion clinic when she is assaulted, I don't there would be the same charge.

No, I am sorry. You are wrong. No one asks the mother if she intended to keep the baby.

It is hypocrisy.

Lisa

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

"I am pro-life, meaning that I think its wrong for Nazis to kill Jews. However, I am pro-choice being that I support a Nazis right to choose to kill a jew whenever he wants.. They are doing a really good job and I don't believe its our buisness to nose into their affairs. Killing jews is wrong, but the Nazis should always have the choice if they want to."

Oh look its the guy who can't actually tell us where or who he gets quotes from and just likes to pick and choose what he wants to attack a person on. Did you even read the rest of that paragraph or did the second you see pro-choice did you just blind everything else I wrote out. Way to go. Way to actually debate something.


How dare you compare me to a Nazi. Thinking that a woman should have a choice in what she does with HER BODY is not being a nazi---or even closely related--its not even in the same ball park. If you read the rest of my paragraph you see that personally I do not agree that abortion is the best route to go and that I do not agree with it morally and would never do it. But its no one's business and its not your place to dictate to women what they should do with their bodies. Maybe if the Catholic Church and other "Pro-Lifers" would stop yelling that people cannot use condoms and birth control and if the religious right would shut their face about proper sex education being taught in school MAYBE there wouldn't be a need for abortion because people wouldn't be getting pregnant to begin with--because that would be prevented.

Yeah we'd all like if teens and people who aren't ready for parenthood would just abstain. But guess what--this is the real world. Why don't you try living in it and being a decent human being?


On a side note now that someone has used the Nazis this post/thread falls under Godwin's law.

 

[Lisa0315]

Since most of these laws apply to when the pregnancy is post-viability, I think it's safe to say without asking that the mother intended on keeping the pregnancy. Nobody asked if Laci had intended on keeping the pregnancy when they charged Scott with murder, but I'm guessing that the fact that she named the baby, had a baby shower, and had the room all put together was something of a clue that she intended on keeping it. Same with the pregnant Marine who was just murdered... She was 7 months pregnant... Something of a clue that she wanted to stay pregnant...

I think if you do research you will find that people have been charged with murder against pregnancies that were not viable outside the womb.

I will see what I can find on the subject.

Lisa

 

[WatersMoon110]

I didn't think Juno had an anti-abortion message at all.

Me either. It talks about one of her friends getting an abortion (before the movie takes place), and there are women getting abortions in the clinic. I think the movie is Pro-Choice, in that the main character chooses to keep her pregnancy and give the resulting baby up for private adoption.

 

[WatersMoon110]

God calls children a blessing, and often the fruit of the womb is called a blessing, so no, it does not say not to abort a child, but Scripture is very adamant that life is precious.

That is true.

But what about circumstances in which a(nother) child would not be a blessing? When it would, in fact, be a huge problem to support? Does God just not care about women who can't afford a(nother) child?

The fact that the Bible says nothing about abortion says a lot, to me. It says that God wants women to figure out what is best for them to do, and then do it. If they later feel it was the wrong choice, He will forgive them. If they don't, there is nothing for Him to forgive.

But, if He had thought it important to forbid abortion (which surely was happening during Biblical times) He would have said so. There weren't any Nazis then (not that Roman actions were too much better), but there were abortions.

 

[Lisa0315]

I have been doing research, and the only cases I've found on pre-viability terminations of pregnancy due to negligence or force being charged as murder were cases that the force was applied specifically because of the pregnancy. IE, man beats girlfriend because she's 12 weeks pregnant, vs. guy who beats girl who happens to be 12 weeks pregnant. The first guy would have a charge, the second guy probably not.

Since you seem so convinced there is something, I'll leave you to back up your own assertions. Until then, I'm going on what I've discovered through research on the topic.

Sorry, it is any age of the fetus. The term in utero is used.

http://crime.about.com/od/issues/a/fetalhomicide.htm

 

[Lisa0315]

First off, that's an editorial.

Second off, that's an editorial by an anti-abortion activist.

Third off, the cases it uses to illustrate it's point are a case where a woman was 8 months pregnant, 7 months, 7 months, and in active full term labor, all of which are post-viability.

Fourthly, in one of the cases there was no charge, the other case was murder with special circumstance, the next he was charged with and found guilty of "using a foreign object to forcibly disrupt a pregnancy," and the final case he was charged with murder as she was in active labor and his guilty sentance was overturned by the Supreme Court because the baby wasn't born.

Fifthly, at the very bottom of the poorly written editorial by the anti-abortion advocate it says quite clearly "Currently, 30 states recognize the unlawful killing of an unborn child as homicide in at least some circumstances," which clearly shows that the disruption of a pregnancy is not always a homicide, and certainly not always a murder.

Sixthly, the article quotes the Unborn Victims of Violence act, which states that a child of any age while in utero can be the victim of violence with the same penalties as the offender would recieve for inflicting the same violence on a born person, if and only if:

* The person engaging in the conduct had knowledge or should have had knowledge that the victim of the underlying offense was pregnant; or

* the defendant intended to cause the death of, or bodily injury to, the unborn child.

Which is, by the way, almost exactly and word for word what I said...

So that article does the very opposite of proving your statement that all disrupted pregnancies due to violence are charged as murder in all states always and all the time. In fact, it proves with no room for interpretation, that my statement is correct.

You did not read all of it. In Utero is the language used in the Laci and Connor Bill otherwise known as Protection of Unborn Children.

http://www.nrlc.org/Unborn_Victims/UVVAEnrolled.html

 

[Lisa0315]

Apparently you didn't read all of it...

I'll repost it, yet again, for the folks in the cheap seats:

Read the actual bill I posted: See the bolded part?

Sec. 1841. Protection of unborn children

• `(a)(1) Whoever engages in conduct that violates any of the provisions of law listed in subsection (b) and thereby causes the death of, or bodily injury (as defined in section 1365) to, a child, who is in utero at the time the conduct takes place, is guilty of a separate offense under this section. `(2)(A) Except as otherwise provided in this paragraph, the punishment for that separate offense is the same as the punishment provided under Federal law for that conduct had that injury or death occurred to the unborn child's mother.
  `(B) An offense under this section does not require proof that--
  • 
    `(i) the person engaging in the conduct had knowledge or should have had knowledge that the victim of the underlying offense was pregnant; or
  • 
    `(ii) the defendant intended to cause the death of, or bodily injury to, the unborn child.

 

[Texas Lynn]

You did not read all of it. In Utero is the language used in the Laci and Connor Bill otherwise known as Protection of Unborn Children.

http://www.nrlc.org/Unborn_Victims/UVVAEnrolled.html

While all deserve protection from violence, this monstrosity of a bill to give prosecutors more clout in these matters, was a huge mistake, creating a precedent which should never have been created. Having worked with the District Attorneys as an expert witness I know most are surely ethical and would never misuse this tool but unwittingly it created a legal basis, however tenuous, to the fiction that a fetus is a person.

 

[Lisa0315]

While all deserve protection from violence, this monstrosity of a bill to give prosecutors more clout in these matters, was a huge mistake, creating a precedent which should never have been created. Having worked with the District Attorneys as an expert witness I know most are surely ethical and would never misuse this tool but unwittingly it created a legal basis, however tenuous, to the fiction that a fetus is a person.

The fetus has always been a human being, my dear. It has only been a legal term that it wasn't. The whole parasite thing...sorry, a'int buying it, no matter how many OBGYNs and Abortionists use the term.

Lisa

 

[Yusuf Evans]

I don't care if you think it's immoral, you have no logical justification for intervention on this one. Leave it alone.

Stop letting the governmen tell parents how to raise their children. The argument can be pointed at the liberals who want the government to dictate how a parent is supposed to raise their child. Before you take the moral high ground on anything, make sure your crap doesn't stink first.

I take offense at anyone who has an abortion out of a matter of convenience, whether it be because they got pregnant too early or if the child is born with a defect(no matter how minor or major it is.). I see any abortion as the taking away of a human life, that could've been the one to change the face of the planet for the better. We'll never know, because people don't want to educate themselves or are just too lazy to accept responsibility for their actions.

 

[Texas Lynn]

The fetus has always been a human being, my dear. It has only been a legal term that it wasn't. The whole parasite thing...sorry, a'int buying it, no matter how many OBGYNs and Abortionists use the term.

Lisa

It's been shown except for a few esoteric philosophers here and there in the distant past, this manufactured position is a recent concoction by cynical political manipulators.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

The fetus has always been a human being, my dear. It has only been a legal term that it wasn't. The whole parasite thing...sorry, a'int buying it, no matter how many OBGYNs and Abortionists use the term.

You can "not buy it" all you like. That doesn't change the fact that the fetus is a parasite. I can "not buy" that 2+2=4, no matter how many mathematicians tell me it does...that doesn't change the fact that 2+2 does equal 4.

And, of course, the fact that it is a parasite has zero to do with anything else to do with the abortion debate. It says nothing about whether or not the fetus is human, whether or not the woman has the right to abort, the worth of the fetus, or anything else.

 

[Lisa0315]

You can "not buy it" all you like. That doesn't change the fact that the fetus is a parasite. I can "not buy" that 2+2=4, no matter how many mathematicians tell me it does...that doesn't change the fact that 2+2 does equal 4.

And, of course, the fact that it is a parasite has zero to do with anything else to do with the abortion debate. It says nothing about whether or not the fetus is human, whether or not the woman has the right to abort, the worth of the fetus, or anything else.

You are right. It says more about the people who prefer the term.

Lisa

 

[Electric Skeptic]

You are right. It says more about the people who prefer the term.

"Prefer" it? Prefer it to what? Or are you going for the rather stupid line that anyone who correctly identifies the fetus as a parasite must hate babies, or children, or think babies are of no worth or something?

The fact that I am aware that the fetus is, biologically, a 'parasite' says zero me except for that fact.

 

[Lisa0315]

"Prefer" it? Prefer it to what? Or are you going for the rather stupid line that anyone who correctly identifies the fetus as a parasite must hate babies, or children, or think babies are of no worth or something?

The fact that I am aware that the fetus is, biologically, a 'parasite' says zero me except for that fact.

I have given birth to two children. I have raised them both to adulthood. It was not an easy road.

Having those children in my womb, having read to them while still in the womb, having cared for them, worried about them, (still do, always will), it says alot to me when a fetus is reduced to a politically or medically correct word. It is a word that brings to mind nasty medicines and grave sickness. It is a word that in my mind reminds me of how close my brother came to dying from parasitic pneumonia at age two.

So, if you can, in good conscience, use such a word regarding the most precious resource this planet has, then, by all means, do not let me stop you.

What do I know? I am just a mother.

Lisa

 

[Electric Skeptic]

I have given birth to two children. I have raised them both to adulthood. It was not an easy road.

Having those children in my womb, having read to them while still in the womb, having cared for them, worried about them, (still do, always will), it says alot to me when a fetus is reduced to a politically or medically correct word.

That's just silly. 'Fetus' is a medically correct word. So is 'embryo'. Does using them say "a lot" to you? Obviously not. So it's not the using of a politically or medically correct word. It's the using of that particular word.

It is a word that brings to mind nasty medicines and grave sickness. It is a word that in my mind reminds me of how close my brother came to dying from parasitic pneumonia at age two.

Then the word has some nasty associations - for you. That's a shame, but you must understand that it doesn't have those associations for everyone. It doesn't for me. When I use it all it brings to mind is the relationship of the fetus to its mother. So my using it, as I said, says not a thing about me except that fact.

So, if you can, in good conscience, use such a word regarding the most precious resource this planet has, then, by all means, do not let me stop you.

Why wouldn't I use it? It's accurate. That you don't like the word is not sufficient reason for me not to use it, sorry. I might not use it around you, because I now know that it makes you uncomfortable, but I'm certainly not going to stop using it because you don't like it.

What do I know? I am just a mother.

Which has zero to do with it.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/cabi/pns/1969/00000028/00000001/art00008


I find it ironic how neither of those links work. And the second one is just an article, not an official definition..


Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species in which one, the parasite, benefits from a prolonged, close association with the other, the host, which is harmed - Wiki

Main Entry: par·a·site Pronunciation: \ˈper-ə-ˌsīt, ˈpa-rə-\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, from Latin parasitus, from Greek parasitos, from para- + sitos grain, food Date: 1539 an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism


parasite

(păr'ə-sīt')

#firstDs #tab17Table{clear:none;} #firstDs .ads_div{width:445px;}

.
#healthiNation .bs1,#healthiNation .bs2,#healthiNation .bs3,#healthiNation .bs4,#healthiNation .bs5,#healthiNation .bsfg{ border-left:1px solid #C9C9C9; border-right:1px solid #C9C9C9; background: #F6F6F6; } #healthiNation .bs1{ background: #C9C9C9; }
document.getElementById("videoBox").style.display="block"
n.

1. Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

An organism that lives on or in a different kind of organism (the host) from which it gets some or all of its nourishment. Parasites are generally harmful to their hosts, although the damage they do ranges widely from minor inconvenience to debilitating or fatal disease.

A parasite that lives or feeds on the outer surface of the host's body, such as a louse, tick, or leech, is called an ectoparasite. Ectoparasites do not usually cause disease themselves although they are frequently a vector of disease, as in the case of ticks, which can transmit the organisms that cause such diseases as Rocky Mountain spotted fever and Lyme disease.

A parasite that lives inside the body of its host is called an endoparasite. Endoparasites include organisms such as tapeworms, hookworms, and trypanosomes that live within the host's organs or tissues, as well as organisms such as sporozoans that invade the host's cells.

The American Heritage® Science Dictionary

your link doesn't work either.

Difference, of course, is that I didn't alter the definitions I posted before posting them.

scientists consider foetuses parasitic. deal with it and move on.

 

[Lisa0315]

What would you call yourself?

Christian

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

Christian

Um...are you saying that only Christians have a correct vision of what it is to be pro-life or are the only ones who really?

I'm just trying to understand what this label has to do with the pro-life vs. pro-choice debate.