I don't care if you think abortion is wrong.

[Lisa0315]

BTW, any of you seen Juno? I was not prepared to love a movie with an antiabortion message but it was just so sweet I couldn't help it.

Unlike in real life, though, the sole antiabortion demonstrator was a sweet bespectacled Asian-American girl with braces instead of a gaggle of violent, threatening, racist overweight and unkempt white male religious extremists.

Here I think you may need this...

 

[Electric Skeptic]

BTW, any of you seen Juno? I was not prepared to love a movie with an antiabortion message but it was just so sweet I couldn't help it.

I didn't think Juno had an anti-abortion message at all.

 

[Renton405]

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/cabi/pns/1969/00000028/00000001/art00008

IngentaConnect The foetus as a parasite[SIZE=-1]The foetus as a parasite. Author: Naismith, D. J.1. Source: Proceedings of the Nutrition Society, Volume 28, Number 1, March 1969 , pp. 25-31(7) ...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]www.ingentaconnect.com/content/cabi/pns/1969/00000028/00000001/art00008 - [/SIZE]

PEP Web - Human Destructiveness: An Essay on Instinct, Foetal ...[SIZE=-1]The instinctual metamorphosis involved in the transition from foetal life as a 'placental parasite' to that of 'baby' in symbiotic relationship with the ...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=IRP.014.0021A - Similar pages[/SIZE]

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/cabi/pns/1969/00000028/00000001/art00008http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/cabi/pns/1969/00000028/00000001/art00008


I find it ironic how neither of those links work. And the second one is just an article, not an official definition..


Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species in which one, the parasite, benefits from a prolonged, close association with the other, the host, which is harmed - Wiki

Main Entry: par·a·site Pronunciation: \ˈper-ə-ˌsīt, ˈpa-rə-\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, from Latin parasitus, from Greek parasitos, from para- + sitos grain, food Date: 1539 an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism


parasite

(păr'ə-sīt')

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n.

1. Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

An organism that lives on or in a different kind of organism (the host) from which it gets some or all of its nourishment. Parasites are generally harmful to their hosts, although the damage they do ranges widely from minor inconvenience to debilitating or fatal disease.

A parasite that lives or feeds on the outer surface of the host's body, such as a louse, tick, or leech, is called an ectoparasite. Ectoparasites do not usually cause disease themselves although they are frequently a vector of disease, as in the case of ticks, which can transmit the organisms that cause such diseases as Rocky Mountain spotted fever and Lyme disease.

A parasite that lives inside the body of its host is called an endoparasite. Endoparasites include organisms such as tapeworms, hookworms, and trypanosomes that live within the host's organs or tissues, as well as organisms such as sporozoans that invade the host's cells.

The American Heritage® Science Dictionary

 

[Renton405]

First of all, don't tell me what I need to do or what I am. I am pro-choice being that I support a woman's right to choose. However I am pro-life

"I am pro-life, meaning that I think its wrong for Nazis to kill Jews. However, I am pro-choice being that I support a Nazis right to choose to kill a jew whenever he wants.. They are doing a really good job and I don't believe its our buisness to nose into their affairs. Killing jews is wrong, but the Nazis should always have the choice if they want to."

 

[IzzyPop]

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/cabi/pns/1969/00000028/00000001/art00008


I find it ironic how neither of those links work. And the second one is just an article, not an official definition..


Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species in which one, the parasite, benefits from a prolonged, close association with the other, the host, which is harmed - Wiki

Main Entry: par·a·site Pronunciation: \ˈper-ə-ˌsīt, ˈpa-rə-\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, from Latin parasitus, from Greek parasitos, from para- + sitos grain, food Date: 1539 an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism


parasite

(păr'ə-sīt')

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document.getElementById("videoBox").style.display="block"
n.

1. Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

An organism that lives on or in a different kind of organism (the host) from which it gets some or all of its nourishment. Parasites are generally harmful to their hosts, although the damage they do ranges widely from minor inconvenience to debilitating or fatal disease.

A parasite that lives or feeds on the outer surface of the host's body, such as a louse, tick, or leech, is called an ectoparasite. Ectoparasites do not usually cause disease themselves although they are frequently a vector of disease, as in the case of ticks, which can transmit the organisms that cause such diseases as Rocky Mountain spotted fever and Lyme disease.

A parasite that lives inside the body of its host is called an endoparasite. Endoparasites include organisms such as tapeworms, hookworms, and trypanosomes that live within the host's organs or tissues, as well as organisms such as sporozoans that invade the host's cells.

The American Heritage® Science Dictionary

Ummmm...the first definition is for parasitism, which is a different word. The others all have 'a different organism' underlined. You do realize that my mother is a different organism than I am. Even a clone of me would be a different organism.

And you never answered my question. If you can redefine murder and child, why can't someone else redefine parasite?

 

[Renton405]

First of all, don't tell me what I need to do or what I am. I am pro-choice being that I support a woman's right to choose. However I am pro-life

"I am pro-life, meaning that I think its wrong for Nazis to kill Jews. However, I am pro-choice being that I support a Nazis right to choose to kill a jew whenever he wants.. They are doing a really good job and I don't believe its our buisness to nose into their affairs. Killing jews is wrong, but the Nazis should always have the choice if they want to."

If you can redefine murder and child, why can't someone else redefine parasite?

Its was never redefined. It was always the obvious. A child is someone under 18 years old, murder is the killing of a human being, and a parasite is a species that hooks itself onto a different species for its nourishment. Nearly all parasites are boneless microbes

 

[IzzyPop]

"I am pro-life, meaning that I think its wrong for Nazis to kill Jews. However, I am pro-choice being that I support a Nazis right to choose to kill a jew whenever he wants.. They are doing a really good job and I don't believe its our buisness to nose into their affairs. Killing jews is wrong, but the Nazis should always have the choice if they want to."

Which actually is a pretty concise restatement of the Catholic Church's position back in the 1940's. Well done. A bit off-topic for an abortion thread, but nice all the same.

 

[IzzyPop]

Its was never redefined. It was always the obvious. A child is someone under 18 years old, murder is the killing of a human being, and a parasite is a species that hooks itself onto a different species for its nourishment. Nearly all parasites are boneless microbes[/QUOTE]A child is born. A fetus isn't. Why not skip all the intermediate steps and just call a blastocyte a senior citizen? It makes just as much sense. And murder is the 'unlawful' killing of another human. If abortion is legal, it cannot be murder.

 

[Lisa0315]

Its was never redefined. It was always the obvious. A child is someone under 18 years old, murder is the killing of a human being, and a parasite is a species that hooks itself onto a different species for its nourishment. Nearly all parasites are boneless microbes

A child is born. A fetus isn't. Why not skip all the intermediate steps and just call a blastocyte a senior citizen? It makes just as much sense. And murder is the 'unlawful' killing of another human. If abortion is legal, it cannot be murder.[/quote]

By man's law, it is not murder. By God's law it is. It is the slaying of innocent blood, one of the seven things that God hates. I realize that it meaningless to you. I was just telling you the reason why Christians feel it is murder despite the law that says it isn't.

But, then, under different circumstances, the taking of fetal life is murder...as long as it isn't the mother doing the killing. You know, someone said that if the mother "wanted" the child, it was murder, but that is not how the law is prosecuted. No one asks the mother if she was considering abortion prior to prosecuting someone who has caused the death of fetal life.

Lisa

 

[Texas Lynn]

Here I think you may need this...

How about something constructive instead?

 

[Texas Lynn]

By God's law it [abortion]is [murder].

God is entirely silent on the matter of abortion.

I was just telling you the reason why Christians feel it is murder despite the law that says it isn't.

Some do, some don't. Many who are against abortion correctly regard the rhetoric "abortion is murder" as extremism not based in reality.

 

[Lisa0315]

Ok, but you feeling it's murder doesn't really make it a stance by which to inact legislation. Especially considering your basis for this "feeling" is religious, and therefore not a common interest for the whole of the nation. I get that some Christians feel that it's God's law that abortion is wrong, and I respect that. So if you think abortion is wrong, by all means, don't get one. But I don't see how people confuse "God says this is wrong for Christians, therefore I won't do it" with "God says this is wrong for Christians, therefore I want to make sure nobody does it."

Your interpretation of God = Your interpretation of religion = Your conduct of living =/= The conduct of living all should abide by. Your personal choice to not abort really has ntohing to do with anybody else's choice to abort or not abort. You can't legislate your faith in the hopes of tricking a nation as a whole into following it "for their own good." I'm fairly confident that if another religion was doing the same thing, you wouldn't be best tickled over it.



I'm always amazed at how fetal homicide laws are always brought up as an example of why abortion is wrong... It shows an amazing lack of understanding of really basic concepts of humanity and consent. I mean come on, you can't see the difference between a person consenting to a medical procedure, and a violent act being inflicted on somebody? Like, for example, you wouldn't see why it's OK for me to go to the doctor and get my appendix out, but not OK for a random person to take my appendix out? Me going to the doctor means I'm consenting to the procedure. Some random person taking my appendix out, that's attempted murder, assault... Even if I'm going to the doctor to get my appendix out, and some guy comes out of nowhere, drags me to the bushes, cuts me open and takes my appendix out, what he did is still a crime. The consent I give for a doctor for a medical procedure isn't blanket consent for anybody to just perform a procedure on me.

It's like saying:

"Well, she gave her friend permision to drive her car, so when I took it it wasn't stealing."
"She let's her husband use her credit card all the time, so me taking it out of her purse and charging stuff on it isn't a crime."
"She invited a friend over to her house, so when I came in at the middle of the night, that's OK."
"He was depressed and considering suicide, so me killing him wasn't murder... He was thinking about doing it to himself anyway."
"She has sex with other men, so me having sex with her even though she didn't want it isn't rape."

Consent given to a specific party for a specific deed isn't blanket consent to all people for all things related to what you've given consent to another person to do. I mean honestly... You can't tell me that you don't see a difference between a woman walking into a doctor's office and getting an abortion, vs. a pregnant woman who's murdered by her husband and thrown into SF Bay... Or a woman taking RU-486 vs. a woman who's pregnant who's beaten to death by her rapist, her dead body set on fire and then buried...

Or are we implying that those acts aren't wrong because, after all, both of those women could have gotten abortions if they had wanted to... Because if we open that box, really murder of born people wouldn't be a crime either. The argument could be made "Well, it's not murder when I shot him in the head because he could have chosen to kill himself."

Well if consent is all that is necessary, why are unlicensed abortionists prosecuted?

Second, how does one murder a parasite? Doesn't a murder have to take place between one human being and another?

You honestly cannot see the hypocrisy here, right?

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

How about something constructive instead?

I consider it constructive to point out that painting a group with the same brush is considered bias.

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

God is entirely silent on the matter of abortion.



Some do, some don't. Many who are against abortion correctly regard the rhetoric "abortion is murder" as extremism not based in reality.

Let me show you how silly the "God is silent on the issue" argument is.

God doesn't say anything about experimenting on other human beings like the Nazis did, but...

God didn't say anything about taking the skins of Jews and making lamp shades out of them, but...

God didn't say anything crimes against humanity but...

God didn't say anything about the government wasting our money but...

God didn't say anything about parents abusing their children (do not give me the rod verse, please) until they were dead, but...

God didn't say anything about suicide, but...

God didn't say anything about developing weapons of mass destruction that in the wrong hands could wipe out millions, but...

There are a million things that may come into the future, new ways man comes up with to harm other men, animals, the earth, etc, and God may not have said a word about it in Scripture, BUT...

We can know how God would feel about a certain subject by what He does say...

God calls children a blessing, and often the fruit of the womb is called a blessing, so no, it does not say not to abort a child, but Scripture is very adamant that life is precious. So precious, that God sent His Son to die in our place. Rather than send us to eternal death and damnation, He paid the price so that we could live!

So, yeah, I think LIFE at any point in its development is pretty much covered as a GOOD thing in Scripture.

Lisa

 

[levi501]

Second, how does one murder a parasite? Doesn't a murder have to take place between one human being and another?

Parasite isn't a species or class of animal.
A human isn't excluded from being considered one.

 

[talkingmonkey]

Doesnt that seem rather odd saying that scripture said of life to be so precious, that God sent its son to die for us?

And another thing that gets me...why did God have to pay the price of sacrificing its son so we could live, when God created everything in the first place.

On another note, here's Ellen Ripley from Aliens giving birth to a parasite...hehe http://student.biology.arizona.edu/honors98/group15/images/burst.jpg

 

[talkingmonkey]

oh yeah...

you morons should just look into a dictionary

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/parasite

or we could go an encyclopaedia

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761553247/Parasite.html

 

[talkingmonkey]

ooh ooh

http://www.reading.ac.uk/about/newsandevents/releases/PR9938.asp

 

[Lisa0315]

Uh... For the same reason all unlicensed folks who practice medicine are prosecuted?

Because practicing medicine without a license is illegal in the US?

Because it's deceptive business practices?

Because it's theft by deception?

As I'm sure Kanye West can tell you, when somebody performs medical procedures on people with no licenses, people die. There's no regulation of the practice or the procedure, no standards of health or cleanliness to be maintained, and people can do whatever they want and charge people money for unsafe, unhealthy, and deceptive medical procedures?

Performing abortions without a license is not something that's unique... All people who perform all medical procedures with no license are breaking the law. Heck, in my state, if you touch somebody for anything, massage, medical checkups, chiropractor, whatever... You'd better have a license. Unlicensed means you're prosecuted.

Besides which, when people consent to medical procedures, it's legally implied that what they're consenting to is a licensed, accreddited, professional who adheres to all local, state, and federal laws and standards for his/her profession. When they do not, they're held liable. When it's found out they have no license, it's a breech of the law for many, many reasons, not least among them is theft by deception (the taking of money for a good or service that is not as assumed or described).

But I have to ask, yet again, are you honestly telling me you don't see a difference between:

* A pregnant woman getting an abortion at Planned Parenthood
* A pregnant woman getting an abortion by an unlicensed person
* A pregnant woman being beaten by her rapist, her body set on fire, and then buried



I have no idea how one can murder a parasite. I'd have to agree, murder would kind of have to occur between human beings, since murder is defined legally as the unlawful taking of the life of a person.

I also have no idea why you asked me this question, since I didn't mention parasites, and I didn't mention murdering parasites...



In what? How it's OK for a woman to CHOOSE to abort, and how it's not OK for another person to beat a woman into miscarrying? Are you seriously arguing that, because a woman can get an abortion, violence committed against pregnant women shouldn't be a crime? That we should be able to beat them, murder them, torture them, and that's OK because pregnant women can choose to abort? Keeping in mind, of course, that if said woman is pregnant then that means that obviously she didn't abort, so if we're doing these things to women because they could abort, we're doing them to women who haven't chosen to abort...

And just how far are we planning on applying this "Because you could choose to X, I can do XX to you and it's OK" standard? Because I'm going to ovulate in a couple of days so I planned on having sex with my husband tonight... I need to know if the consent to have sex with my husband means I need to be on the lookout for rapists who aren't really rapists because my having sex with my husband is implied consent to anybody who wants to have sex with me.

No, I am arguing the language that pro-choicers use.

"It is not murder because it is not a human".
"It is not a baby. It is a parasite."
"The woman has given consent to the abortionist is the difference between a legal abortion and murder".

If the woman goes to an unlicensed abortionist, she has given consent. So, why is that a crime? She has made the choice to do this with her body.

If the baby is a parasite and not human...yet..., then, how can anyone murder a non-human parasite whether the mother has given consent or not? Shouldn't the crime be assault and robbery rather than murder? This would follow the line of logic that folks here have laid out. It is assault of the woman and the robbery of something that belongs to her body, but it is not human so it cannot be murder.

That is hypocrisy.

Lisa

 

[IzzyPop]

No, I am arguing the language that pro-choicers use.

"It is not murder because it is not a human".
"It is not a baby. It is a parasite."
"The woman has given consent to the abortionist is the difference between a legal abortion and murder".

If the woman goes to an unlicensed abortionist, she has given consent. So, why is that a crime? She has made the choice to do this with her body.

If the baby is a parasite and not human...yet..., then, how can anyone murder a non-human parasite whether the mother has given consent or not? Shouldn't the crime be assault and robbery rather than murder? This would follow the line of logic that folks here have laid out. It is assault of the woman and the robbery of something that belongs to her body, but it is not human so it cannot be murder.

That is hypocrisy.

Lisa

I am pretty sure that the woman does not get charged with a crime if she unwittingly sees an unlicensed practitioner for her abortion. I could be wrong, though.

As to the other, it goes towards intent. If the parents want to carry the child, then it is murder. If the mother is on the way to the abortion clinic when she is assaulted, I don't there would be the same charge.