I don't believe in right and wrong.

[Kris_J]

The ideal state is a construct.
Let's equate it to mathematical ideals: There is no such thing as a line. It is a completely hypothetical construct that does not exist outside of our heads. Still, we are able to imagine it and grasp it logically because our minds function by classifying our surroundings and creating structures. Remember the guy who couldn't grasp the concept of red any more because of brain damage?

Lets look at the bigger picture & you'll see what my point is.

Imagine if you & I reached perfection in every single conceivable & inconceivable way. What is the likelihood that you & I will disagree?

We can extrapolate from our relatively well developed but imperfect world views. Lets assume that we are both modern women of sound mind having benefited from education & knowledge provided by our environments. I bet you we agree on:
1. Placing a high value on ALL human life.
2. Placing a high value on dignity for ALL human life.
3. Rejecting racism.
4. Rejecting sexism

Now, you may believe in the death penalty for example, but I do not. But if we both had a perfect understanding of the issue, I am sure we would both arrive at the same conclusion - ideally that we both reject the death penalty.

Apply this method for every single issue assuming that we are both perfect, then we can extrapolate that we will both arrive at the exact same conclusion - hence absolute.

Once reaching the point of perfection - eg God - & not limited by time/knowledge/power (omnipresent/scient/potent), that is where absolute Truth is.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Your approach reminds me of Thomas of Aquina. However, even the idea of "perfection" is nothing but that - an idea. And if we claim that our ideas are perhaps even more real than reality, we conjure up all sorts of problems and become alienated from our surroundings.

Morality as such is a construct that's been engineered by a specific society. Sometimes, these societies wanted to imply that their rules were handed down by some higher authority, preferably a god or even THE God. That way, the Indians established their caste system, the Muslims cemented the structure of their states, and the Jews constructed their patriarchal and highly ritualized society. (Just to name a few.)
But maybe I shouldn't limit this phenomenon to the past: It still happens nowadays. George W. Bush not only tries to project a crude sense of nationalism (the last refuge of the scoundrel, according to Mark Twain), but also likes to sustain his position by pointing to his "godliness", his Christian moral superiority.

 

[an7222]

Lets look at the bigger picture & you'll see what my point is.

Imagine if you & I reached perfection in every single conceivable & inconceivable way. What is the likelihood that you & I will disagree?

We can extrapolate from our relatively well developed but imperfect world views. Lets assume that we are both modern women of sound mind having benefited from education & knowledge provided by our environments. I bet you we agree on:
1. Placing a high value on ALL human life.
2. Placing a high value on dignity for ALL human life.
3. Rejecting racism.
4. Rejecting sexism

Now, you may believe in the death penalty for example, but I do not. But if we both had a perfect understanding of the issue, I am sure we would both arrive at the same conclusion - ideally that we both reject the death penalty.

Apply this method for every single issue assuming that we are both perfect, then we can extrapolate that we will both arrive at the exact same conclusion - hence absolute.

Once reaching the point of perfection - eg God - & not limited by time/knowledge/power (omnipresent/scient/potent), that is where absolute Truth is.

Perfect! This is what I was trying to say. You can have a different moral standard than mine, but if we perfect ourselves in a subject, we will both arrive at the same absolute conclusion. We will ultimately come to the truth.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

That's what British historians believed in the 19th century: A linear progress towards moral perfection. It added greatly to the Empire's own aspirations of "carrying the light of reason into the dark corners of the world".

And then, there was the 20th century...

 

[kedaman]

morality is invisible.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

morality is invisible.

REALLY? Geee, and I thought it looked pretty much like a pink zebra!
No, honestly, what are you trying to tell us, kedaman?

 

[Blackmarch]

what would you think if i did something that was right-to-me, but was wrong-to-you?

(i seriously want to know what ya would think about it, i'm not making a joke)

Evidently, one would think it would be wrong....

 

[kedaman]

what I'm trying to tell, will be revealed to you in your most darkest moments.

For everything you consider good, you are willing to pay a price which is bought in visible success, that you can judge as deception. But all what you have lost on your own, have been paid for with invisible coins. When has your friend proved to you his loyality, and since when has your friend betrayed you at the moment he lost your trust?

 

[Kris_J]

That's what British historians believed in the 19th century: A linear progress towards moral perfection. It added greatly to the Empire's own aspirations of "carrying the light of reason into the dark corners of the world".

And then, there was the 20th century...

Who said anything about "linear progression"? As far as I'm concerned, Bush along with the nations he has dragged into his "crusade" has dragged Australia & Britain into medieval crusades mentality.

However, as I said, you are more than welcome to deny yourself women's rights if you do not believe that attaining women's rights was any sort of progress since obviously you do not agree with the notion of progress at all:

We can extrapolate from our relatively well developed but imperfect world views. Lets assume that we are both modern women of sound mind having benefited from education & knowledge provided by our environments. I bet you we agree on:
1. Placing a high value on ALL human life.
2. Placing a high value on dignity for ALL human life.
3. Rejecting racism.
4. Rejecting sexism.

That means no internet & go to the kitchen "where you belong".