I don't believe in evolution... (2)

[Nathan Poe]

Actually what most pedophiles and pederasts have in common is a history of abuse (meaning, they too were abused as youngsters. Not only sexually, but emotionally, physically, etc).

That too -- many of them learned from experience.

Part of Walt's rehabilitation was to have him work with children at our church. And before you ask, these rehabilitation sessions were supervised.

Good to know -- I'm sure the recovering alcoholic tending the bar never gives in to temptation... as long as he's being watched.

I still think she is largely misunderstood.

You haven't been debating with her for as many years as the rest of us. Off the top of my head, I recall that she's advocated the use of torture in wartime (and I'm not talking waterboarding; I mean the real thing), the extermination of Iraqis (every man, woman, and child) as part of the "War on Terror," execution of adulterers, homosexuals, pornographers, and deadbeat dads (to be fair, she's reserved execution as a punishment for the third offense, but still...), and the removal of non-Christians from positions of government power and authority (after all, only Christians by her definition should be allowed to run a Christian nation).

So the best most of could hope for in a nation under her vision is to be second-class citizens in a fascist regime. The worst would involve hanging from a tree.

Combine that with some of her sweeping generalizations -- There's no such thing as a Christian democrat, poverty is punishment for a sinful lifestyle, AIDS is punishment for homosexuality, and Atheists control every news and media outlet in the world -- and it's really hard for anyone to get behind her positions.

Again, you assume to know her. But I think there is more to her than what you and others see. Just my opinion.

Come back in a few years and see if you still think that -- personally, I think there's a lot less.

Maybe she can respond to this to provide further clarification. Either way, I don't pose a threat.

Not yet you don't. But the crux of clirus' politics has always been "[ineffectual] rebuke, then execution."

When all you have is a hammer, everything else looks like a nail.

Inspired to perhaps rethink your beliefs and opinions toward the faithful.

And you don't think I take joy and comfort at sincere displays of faith? You assume to know me.

I have seen many such displays, from many faiths and denominations, and they are welcome sights.

I've always liked Roman Catholic churches -- St. Patrick's Cathedral is particularly awe inspiring. One can't tour it and not feel moved.

I recall once attending a Baptist service up in Harlem -- I don't recall the church's name, but the choir really knew how to get the crowd rolling. It's even more interesting when the minister revealed that every member of the choir was an ex-con.

The last Presbyterian service I went to had a very "family" atmosphere to it -- there is something to be said for small-town services.

There's something about a synagogue -- the last one I attended hung with history and tradition; it really made you feel that nothing important had changed in 5,000 years.

Mosques had always been something of a turnoff for me -- too Spartan -- until I realized that that was the point at the last one I visited: No distractions between Allah and the believer.

All wonderful places and means for the sincere expression of faith -- but not for me. I'd rather spend my weekends curled up with a good book (not necessarily "The Good Book"; I've already read that one.)

No, I don't care about credit, I just think it's interesting when those who convert look back at their former selves. Of course, this is assuming you will find the Lord.

Glad to hear that -- I find it interesting myself, albeit occasionally disturbing. There's a lot of self-loathing going on with some converts; have you ever noticed that?

On the other hand, I'm sure you've heard the expression about how every time you point, there are three fingers pointing back to you. I've noticed that to be true every time people try to point me towards their "God." It's hard to see the search for the divine as more than a study of the human condition, and, being a human myself, I find humans much more interesting to learn about anyway.

On the plus side, if I do start searching for the Lord, I've already got plenty of leads to follow.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You haven't been debating with her for as many years as the rest of us. Off the top of my head, I recall that she's advocated the use of torture in wartime (and I'm not talking waterboarding; I mean the real thing), the extermination of Iraqis (every man, woman, and child) as part of the "War on Terror," execution of adulterers, homosexuals, pornographers, and deadbeat dads (to be fair, she's reserved execution as a punishment for the third offense, but still...), and the removal of non-Christians from positions of government power and authority (after all, only Christians by her definition should be allowed to run a Christian nation).

So the best most of could hope for in a nation under her vision is to be second-class citizens in a fascist regime. The worst would involve hanging from a tree.

Combine that with some of her sweeping generalizations -- There's no such thing as a Christian democrat, poverty is punishment for a sinful lifestyle, AIDS is punishment for homosexuality, and Atheists control every news and media outlet in the world -- and it's really hard for anyone to get behind her positions.

Clirus might take one glance at this and accuse you of 'strawman exaggeration'. However, that summary assessment quoted above is corroborated by statements she has actually made on this forum (and some others) at one point or another. When any of those statements has been challenged, particularly for the validity or soundness of the argument or its immoral ramifications, I do not recall Clirus ever backing down. She seems to have stuck by what's she's said. When has she ever taken it back? And now she has the temerity to call it a 'strawman'? Rather than repudiating those ideas that have come to characterise her presence on this forum, Clirus instead opts to accuse us of building elaborate strawmen. It seems like a red herring to me. An attempt to distance herself from the commentary those ideas have elicited, but not the ideas themselves.

 

[TheReasoner]

You haven't been debating with her for as many years as the rest of us. Off the top of my head, I recall that she's advocated the use of torture in wartime (and I'm not talking waterboarding; I mean the real thing), the extermination of Iraqis (every man, woman, and child) as part of the "War on Terror," execution of adulterers, homosexuals, pornographers, and deadbeat dads (to be fair, she's reserved execution as a punishment for the third offense, but still...), and the removal of non-Christians from positions of government power and authority (after all, only Christians by her definition should be allowed to run a Christian nation).

Not only that though Poe. Christian - according to her. I would never be given a position in the government or any educational institution as I'm not a creationist.
I am not sure, but quite certain I'd be killed by her regime. If not for opposing it and harboring the people she wants dead, then for being as far left as I am.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Not only that though Poe. Christian - according to her.

Of course -- I assumed that went without saying.

 

[SOAD]

QED? Wow, with such a well reasoned argument it's a wonder the whole world isn't full of creationists!

Just kidding. Study some DNA replication and perhaps you'll understand how information and complexity can increase. Then study some physics and realize that the second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply to the earth because it's not a closed system... it gets added energy from the sun.

Chance and selection. It's what brought you here today.

Snow Phoenix, keep the day job.

(it is funny when people say this to you, insn't it?)

 

[Snow Phoenix]

Snow Phoenix, keep the day job.

(it is funny when people say this to you, insn't it?)

It's only funny when it actually applies to the post in question. You know, you trying to write a song, where it's common for people to think it's no good and jokingly suggest 'keep your day job'?

Yeah. Good try though. But notice how I'm not getting offended or snapping back?

 

[TheReasoner]

Of course -- I assumed that went without saying.

Of course. I just thought maximum clarification might benefit some people here. Z appears to not understand C's position very well, hence the comment

 

[Snow Phoenix]

Of course. I just thought maximum clarification might benefit some people here. Z appears to not understand C's position very well, hence the comment

I'm reasonably sure at one point he claimed that he supported the 'three strikes' idea that Clirus had, and implementing against 'atheists, homosexuals and liberal wastrels'...

 

[Nathan Poe]

I'm reasonably sure at one point he claimed that he supported the 'three strikes' idea that Clirus had, and implementing against 'atheists, homosexuals and liberal wastrels'...

And when they run out of scapegoats to hang, they'll have to manufacture more.

 

[tulc]

One of us does not understand the Bible.

...and the one less likely to kill me for disagreeing with them would be a better neighbor.
tulc(just sayn')

 

[TheReasoner]

Lets take close look at your contention.

First, my quote does not contain the word civilian. It is when you add the word civilian that the "Straw Man Exaggeration" begin. Now you can assume that there are civilians in a war zone, but you cannot prove that. Is the wife of a terrorists a civilian? Is the child of a terrorist a civilian? Now prove it.

Oh that's worse than thin, Clirus. You just advocated starving an entire population. And now you're saying that they are not civilians?

That's... Crazy. Completely insane as a matter of fact. You just advocated killing men women and children with impunity. To starve an entire country. And you think you're off the hook because you did not mention the word "civilian"?
Come on Clirus.

Second, my statement is totally consistent with what God says in the Bible. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:3

So you're God now? GOD told him that in that ONE case. You are NOT God, and your generalization of one example to a general rule is NOT valid.
IF you read the bible you will find that this is NOT the common rule

I am well aware that my statements do not fit with your pacificist ideas, but I have stated many times that I do not believe the Bible supports pacifism.

Clirus, you know I am an army veteran and that I hold the rank of corporal. THIS is a straw man Clirus. I am not a pacifist. I am a veteran.

One of us does not understand the Bible.

Why, yes. Apparently. You keep ignoring most issues and blow up your own interpretations of single verses and single special circumstances to fit your bloody agenda. And as for the teachings of Christ, those you mostly ignore

 

[Woden84]

I did not advocate executing unruly children, but rather stated I agreed with the Bible that unruly children should be brought before the elders to be dealt with in accordance with the Bible.

rofl! "I don't want to kill them, I just want to forcefully make them not live anymore. It's totally different you guys!" I would add that you aren't fooling anyone, but apparently you are fooling Zongerfield.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Clirus tries to manipulate the Bible to appease her personal beliefs and political agenda. The Bible does not support her but that does not stop her from putting her agenda and ideas ahead of the Bible. I am listing two of her quotes below that prove what I have said

Quotes by Clirus
I believe the failure of a man to provide for his family should require execution of the man.

Enact Absolute Paternity legislation that would execute the father of a child that fails to make child care payments for an illegitimate child.

I post these quotes from her as she claims to be Christian and I do not want her to give anyone the idea that she represents Christianity with her ideas as listed above. Furthermore, I post these quotes so that Clirus will have less influence, if that is possible. She has been posting her beliefs and agenda and trying to convince people that the Bible is on her side and has not even got 1% of approval by the readers on this forum. However, Zongerfield seems to want to support her and has not stood up against her misrepresentation of the Bible when she tries to say the Bible supports her quotes above.

Zongerfield is not exactly like Clirus but I am beginning to think that he may be classified as a CLIRUS LITE. If that proves to be true then Clirus does have one person that thinks a little like her. That is a poor showing after her years of posting; Clirus only has one possible CLIRUS LITE out of hundreds if not thousands of replies to her beliefs.

Clirus is set on judging and in some cases condemning lot of groups of people.
Zongerfield is set on forgiving us and blessing us.

The actions of both Clirus and Zongerfield are actions for God (except in the case of one of us sinning against Zongerfield, then his spiritual instruction is to forgive). I doubt that God has appointed Clirus as His spokesperson. At least Zongerfield brings in some of the main themes of Christ’s teachings which is forgiving, and blessings. Clirus is focused on her agenda of judging and condemnation.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

I find it a little disturbing that clirus can even post stuff about exterminating people.

 

[Zongerfield]

I think I know what's going on here with regards to my Christian Dialect. But before I explain, let me just say HAPPY EASTER TO ALL. I've been attending service most of the day and have been away from my computer.

Here is my explanation of why many of you find my prayers and praying offensive, why many of you wish I wouldn't pray or offer a blessing to those in need of positive support, why many of you wish I would submit to your notion of how a Christian is supposed to think and act, why many of you wish I would just conform to the majority, etc. Many of you believe these things because I defended Clirus. Had I called her a radical and wished her ill-will and suffering, condemned her, rebuked her, many of you would not take issue with my prayers. In fact, I bet most of you would embrace me as long as I jumped on the "let's tear down Clirus" bandwagon. But since I didn't agree with the majority viewpoint, I was skeptical, I questioned your labeling of Clirus, I was ostracised and then ridiculed for my style of expression. See, I believe in the virtues of a wise minority. A minority that values critical thinking, individualism, empathy, and compassion over the large monolithic voice of the majority.

My apologies for disagreeing with everyone. But I still stand firmly behind my positions. Clirus is not evil. She should not be stoned or castigated for her viewpoints. She is a different voice, an authentic voice. Respect her differences and embrace her Christian soul.

I am going to be holding a candlelight vigil tonight at 8:30 to honor the life of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Those that wish to send prayers or blessings are more than welcome to. I encourage prayer, forgiveness, and reflection. Bless you all.

 

[variant]

I find it a little disturbing that clirus can even post stuff about exterminating people.

Calling for putting people to death in the name of religion is less controversial in these parts than drug legalization, the politics of abortion, and questioning someone’s professed Christianity.

 

[variant]

My apologies for disagreeing with everyone. But I still stand firmly behind my positions. Clirus is not evil. She should not be stoned or castigated for her viewpoints. She is a different voice, an authentic voice. Respect her differences and embrace her Christian soul.

Someone suggested stoning?

You don't have to apologies for your opinions, but I am merely letting you know that not taking the time to say "it's not ok to call for other peoples deaths" while you attempt to profess love for those same people makes you hypocritical and lacking in any integrity.

It's not ok to call for anyone’s death over trivial offiences and I am not apologizing to you for that position.

 

[TheReasoner]

Calling for putting people to death in the name of religion is less controversial in these parts than drug legalization, the politics of abortion, and questioning someone’s professed Christianity.

Actually you appear to be right. The other points might get you kicked out. Genocide in Jesus' name doesn't, it seems...

Reminds me. I got a warning (later reversed) for having the question "Who would Jesus bomb" in my sig.

Yay americonservatism!

 

[variant]

Actually you appear to be right. The other points might get you kicked out. Genocide in Jesus' name doesn't, it seems...

Reminds me. I got a warning (later reversed) for having the question "Who would Jesus bomb" in my sig.

Yay americonservatism!

Yes, that’s why I posted it...

The wink doesn’t mean I’m sarcastic there, I am trying to convey an over the top sense of shared knowledge.

But perhaps I’ve already said too much, speaking of the rules is expressly forbidden unlike calling for the deaths of people who don’t think like you do.



Also ironic is Zong's christian stance on not rebukeing Clirus's christian stance even though her philosophy calles for rebuke of those who disagree (down to killing if nessisary).

I wonder if he knows that he has rebuked it by logical default.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I think I know what's going on here with regards to my Christian Dialect. But before I explain, let me just say HAPPY EASTER TO ALL. I've been attending service most of the day and have been away from my computer.

Hope you had a happy Easter.

Here is my explanation of why many of you find my prayers and praying offensive,

Clearly you haven't been paying attention to a word any of us have been saying.

why many of you wish I wouldn't pray or offer a blessing to those in need of positive support, why many of you wish I would submit to your notion of how a Christian is supposed to think and act, why many of you wish I would just conform to the majority, etc.

yes, that's it entirely -- nothing whatsoever to do with WHAT WE'VE BEEN EXPLICITLY TELLING YOU TO YOUR FACE.

I can't wait to hear your persecution complex -- in 3...2...1...

Many of you believe these things because I defended Clirus.

You do seem cut from the same cloth.

Had I called her a radical and wished her ill-will and suffering, condemned her, rebuked her, many of you would not take issue with my prayers.

Not true -- we'd still consider you patronizing and condescending -- just not sociopathic.

In fact, I bet most of you would embrace me as long as I jumped on the "let's tear down Clirus" bandwagon.

Wrong again -- you really need to start listening to what people tell you, rather than retreat into your own fantasy world -- or worse, into clirus'

But since I didn't agree with the majority viewpoint, I was skeptical, I questioned your labeling of Clirus, I was ostracised and then ridiculed for my style of expression. See, I believe in the virtues of a wise minority. A minority that values critical thinking, individualism, empathy, and compassion over the large monolithic voice of the majority.

What does any of that have to do with clirus? She embodies exactly none of those things.

My apologies for disagreeing with everyone. But I still stand firmly behind my positions. Clirus is not evil. She should not be stoned or castigated for her viewpoints.

Nobody wants to stone clirus -- the only talk of executions has only ever come from her.

Please, don't feed into a persecution complex -- especially if it's not your own.

She is a different voice, an authentic voice. Respect her differences and embrace her Christian soul.

I have a difficult time respecting anyone who would use civil law to make me miserable.

I am going to be holding a candlelight vigil tonight at 8:30 to honor the life of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Any particular reason you're announcing the time? Obviously we're not going to be there to join you, so scheduling is irrelevant. Would our own prayers not count if they were early or late?

Those that wish to send prayers or blessings are more than welcome to. I encourage prayer, forgiveness, and reflection. Bless you all.

Enjoy -- make sure you pray for clirus exactly as you pray for us -- she certainly seems to need it more.