I don't believe in evolution... (2)

[Zongerfield]

OK, I'm perfectly capable of being wrong, I am just saying that it comes off that way to me. I've never actually had an "I'll pray for you" come at me in an argument where the person I was speaking with was not giving me an underhanded insult.

If you truly want to make an example of your Christian attitudes then I'm not sure why you don't just say something like this post?

Well the first part anyway.

I tried to explain it, in fact, I said some similar stuff earlier on, but people around these parts seem to be pretty close-minded, they have a preconception about someone, and then they run with it, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Take Clirus for example, she's a very outspoken person with some very extreme opinions, but that doesn't make her a horrible person. She is a Christian. She is someone who should be treated fairly. We shouldn't shut her our because she says things we might not agree with. Instead we should embrace her differences, we should try to find common ground and learn to appreciate those things we do have in common.

But everyone here is so quick to judge and label, and say "you're a haughty genocidal proponent" etc. This is unfair. That's why I've said, read and reflect, read and reflect. Don't just read and respond without thinking or reflecting.

 

[Snow Phoenix]

I am not a meek person. I believe strongly in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Your lord and savior Jesus Christ. Not mine, not a Muslim's, not a Jew's, not a Zoroastrian's, not a Wiccan's, not a Buddhist's.

And, after much thought, it would dishonest of me to attempt to quell my love for our Lord.

Again, this isn't our lord, this is your lord. This isn't about you quelling your love for your lord, but understanding that others hold different views, and do not appreciate the way your replies make you come across as holier than thou and condescending.

I cannot be someone who is shunned into keeping quiet to appease those individuals who have a contemptible view of pious individuals like myself.

I can just picture you with your chest puffed out and a Bible clutched in your arms. I feel no contempt for anybody. And likely, if you looked up the word, you'd realize that everyone here has been telling you how you have been coming off as contemptuous to us. As Faith Guardian pointed out, your prayers and such should be kept private, and out of public. As you pointed out, preaching and witnessing your experiences should be a priority, and I agree. For if what you hold to be true is congruent with reality it's important that everyone be convinced, and since it holds true with reality, there must therefore be some form of evidence or reason you can use to accomplish that task.

After all, I would ask everyone to consider the context of our dialogue, we are discussing on "Christian Forums" - we are not debating on "Anti-Theist Forums" - people of faith come here to discuss those things they find sacred and important.

No, people of all faiths come here to discuss all kinds of things. Sure there is an extreme Christian majority, doesn't mean those that do not hold your views are marginalized. If you want to keep your little bubble of belief safe then stay over in the Christians only sections, and don't wander over into the everyone allowed sections.

Of course, there are unbelievers that lurk about who are curious to learn about the faithful (also, those that seek to deride and poke fun at the faithful), but why should I be the one to tame down my Love of the Lord?

Again, nobody's asked you to tame down your love for your lord, merely to express it in a more open and respectful tone.

I am praying for people, and I am going to forgive them when they insult me.

We all forgive people when they insult us. We all forgive when people hurt us. What we do not appreciate is when people jump on in all holier than thou and claim 'I'm praying for you!' like we need to be prayed for, or that something is wrong with us.

So Z, even though you have insulted many of us, I still forgive you absolutely and completely.

Instead of trying to silence a unique voice, you should embrace it. But perhaps that is asking too much.

Trust me when I tell you that your attitudes here are definitely not unique. We aren't trying to silence you, we're trying to wipe the condescension and other insulting material our of your replies and instead replace it with insightful, useful knowledge that benefits everyone.

 

[variant]

Take Clirus for example, she's a very outspoken person with some very extreme opinions, but that doesn't make her a horrible person. She is a Christian. She is someone who should be treated fairly. We shouldn't shut her our because she says things we might not agree with. Instead we should embrace her differences, we should try to find common ground and learn to appreciate those things we do have in common.

I'm all for common ground but I am not going to sit back and not condemn obviously extreme and incendiary opinions.

I've seen you condemn other opinions like those of evolutionary biologists, liberals, and atheists so it's not like you're not capable of it.

For some reason though when it comes to extreme Christian dominism you feel the need for us all to sit back and reflect and restrain judgment.

It speaks to your biases at least.

But everyone here is so quick to judge and label, and say "you're a haughty genocidal proponent" etc. This is unfair.

It's not unfair any more than if I claimed you supported creationism.

Or, we have very differn't views on fairness.

 

[Snow Phoenix]

Take Clirus for example, she's a very outspoken person with some very extreme opinions, but that doesn't make her a horrible person. She is a Christian. She is someone who should be treated fairly. We shouldn't shut her our because she says things we might not agree with. Instead we should embrace her differences, we should try to find common ground and learn to appreciate those things we do have in common.

What would your opinion be of a Muslim who lived in America and advocated the rebuking of anyone who held opposing views views of Islam, and if they refused to rescind their views, they should be executed by the state?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Take Clirus for example, she's a very outspoken person with some very extreme opinions, but that doesn't make her a horrible person. She is a Christian. She is someone who should be treated fairly. We shouldn't shut her our because she says things we might not agree with. Instead we should embrace her differences, we should try to find common ground and learn to appreciate those things we do have in common.

You have to stop giving people a free pass just because they're Christians. Do you advocate "embracing the differences" of Christians who bomb abortion clinics?

 

[Zongerfield]

What's causing all this strife and turmoil is that many of you are unfamiliar with my Christian sub-dialect. When I say "I forgive you, and I will pray for you" many of you believe I am trying to imply that your beliefs are inferior to mine, or that I am smarter than you, or that my covenant with our Lord is more important than yours, etc. This is far from the truth. When I say "I forgive you, and I will pray for you" I am forgiving you for any insult you may have caused me, and I am praying for you because I believe everyone can use positive blessings. Which brings up an interesting point, if someone sends you a blessing, should you turn it down because you feel they are being condescending? Why are so many people averse to well-wishing?

Additionally, and to bear part of my soul, I believe those who don't accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior will go to hell. This is what I believe. So, I pray for everyone. I pray that one day everyone will find the Lord, as I did. I pray that one day everyone will be saved. But, I'm afraid not everyone wants to be saved, so this is a cause for great internal suffering. I feel conflicted and depressed at times knowing good people are fated to burn in the hearth of hell. In part, this is why I pray for everyone.

I know many of you hate me because I am a Christian. I know many of you hate me for my literal interpretation of the bible. I know many of you hate me because I think differently, and I speak differently than you do. But I can't change my ways to appease you. I can't compromise my relationship with our Lord. I need his grace and his guidance. It's a blessing to be a Christian, a blessing that I hope everyone can experience one day.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

I know many of you hate me because I am a Christian. I know many of you hate me for my literal interpretation of the bible. I know many of you hate me because I think differently, and I speak differently than you do. But I can't change my ways to appease you. I can't compromise my relationship with our Lord. I need his grace and his guidance. It's a blessing to be a Christian, a blessing that I hope everyone can experience one day.

No one here hates you. And no one dislikes you because you're a Christian. That has nothing to do with it really. It's the way you carry yourself and how you blindly back up clirus no matter what.

 

[variant]

I know many of you hate me because I am a Christian. I know many of you hate me for my literal interpretation of the bible. I know many of you hate me because I think differently, and I speak differently than you do. But I can't change my ways to appease you. I can't compromise my relationship with our Lord. I need his grace and his guidance. It's a blessing to be a Christian, a blessing that I hope everyone can experience one day.

You could also do better to can the self important persecution complex.

People on the Internet have never rarely get an emotion out of me that anyone could ever call hate.

 

[Snow Phoenix]

I know many of you hate me because I am a Christian. I know many of you hate me for my literal interpretation of the bible. I know many of you hate me because I think differently, and I speak differently than you do. But I can't change my ways to appease you. I can't compromise my relationship with our Lord. I need his grace and his guidance. It's a blessing to be a Christian, a blessing that I hope everyone can experience one day.

Nobody hates you because you're a Christian. I think you're misled and a bit extremist in some of your positions, but no hate.

Also, it's your lord, not mine, and not anybody's on here who isn't a Christian.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I tried to explain it, in fact, I said some similar stuff earlier on, but people around these parts seem to be pretty close-minded, they have a preconception about someone, and then they run with it, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Take Clirus for example, she's a very outspoken person with some very extreme opinions, but that doesn't make her a horrible person. She is a Christian. She is someone who should be treated fairly. We shouldn't shut her our because she says things we might not agree with. Instead we should embrace her differences, we should try to find common ground and learn to appreciate those things we do have in common.

If only you took that view when it came to homosexuals, Atheists and others you disagree with. Before you start lambasting us, how about you look to your own conduct and apply that wholesome advice.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Now, that is one of the great difference between Islam and Christianity.

Christians tolerate other religions. America (founded as a Christian Nation) does not execute people for their religious beliefs, however America does execute people for violating Civil Law.

You don't seem to be very tolerant toward other belief systems. In fact, in this very thread, you said that you are of the belief that the State should prevent people who believe in ToE and the Big Bang from holding positions of leadership in society. That is hardly an example of tolerance toward people with differing beliefs. It is an attempt to erase those beliefs from the public discourse.

It just do happens to turn out, it is the Atheists that violate Civil Law and get executed, so the Atheists imply they are being executed for being Atheists, but in reality the Atheist is being executed for violating Civil Law.

We are well aware of the nuances you've added to this so as to justify your program of elimination. It is brilliantly thought-out scheme to get rid of the people you don't agree with. But it's transparent. Among all the nuanced layers you've cloaked it in, everyone still sees the theocratic core of your ideology.

Evil people usually state they are being mistreated.

Except when such people are actually being mistreated. You just call the mistreated ones 'evil'.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

No Christian has ever bombed an abortion clinic.

Anyone can call themselves a Christian, but there is never any way a person could logically conclude that bombing an abortion clinic was a Christian action.

Now, an Atheist could accuse Christians of bombing abortion clinics.

No true Scotsman...

 

[Skavau]

It just do happens to turn out, it is the Atheists that violate Civil Law and get executed, so the Atheists imply they are being executed for being Atheists, but in reality the Atheist is being executed for violating Civil Law.

Evil people usually state they are being mistreated.

But this in all practicality means nothing: You have inisisted that all Atheists by being atheists and having an 'atheistic lifestyle' are violating civil law and therefore worthy of execution.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

But this in all practicality means nothing: You have inisisted that all Atheists by being atheists and having an 'atheistic lifestyle' are violating civil law and therefore worthy of execution.

An iron fist in a velvet glove.

 

[TheReasoner]

To faith guardian

I pray you will have a "Road to Damascus" experience.

And embrace the slaughter you advocate? Wouldn't that be pretty much the exact opposite of Paul's experience, won't you say? Paul was a man who persecuted and was turned away from that. What you claim would be the exact opposite. Someone who would go from mercy to persecution.

I will not blaspheme, C. Strike me blind, but I cannot see how I could embrace the evil you call 'christian'. It's not consistent with the bible, it is antithetical to Christ's life and teachings and it is something we know very very well from human history to be about as evil as things get. We have mass graves here from the last time someone high up thought like you do. As a young recruit I stood by just such a grave. That's when I really realized I'd put my life on the line to prevent such a thing from happening again. What you promote millions died and killed to stop from happening. What makes you think we'd accept you when we fought Hitler?

 

[bricklayer]

There is no spontaneous increase in available information, complexity or energy.
There is no such thing as chance.

 

[Woden84]

So: I think Z's poor reception here might in fact be due to a couple of unfortunate occurrences:
1: He used lingo which works fine in a subculture but has utterly different meanings to people outside said subculture.

You make an excellent point here. I'm sure it's perfectly benign within a church or even family (the rest of my family is very religious, if I was having some trouble and one of them said they'd pray for me I'd take it as basically "I hope you'll pull through this/You're in my thoughts"), but from a stranger on the internet it just comes across like what Nathan said:

"I pity you, and hope you become more like me"?

Or, like I've sometime seen it used in a debate "You have trounced me with your logic and facts, but you are still wrong just because and my omnipotent buddy will totally convince you of that"

I am praying for people, and I am going to forgive them when they insult me. Instead of trying to silence a unique voice, you should embrace it. But perhaps that is asking too much.

No one is trying to silence you, just telling you that some of us consider what you keep saying insulting. Take faith guardian's example:

Don't see this as a demand upon your actions, see it more as a cultural collision. Have you ever experienced that? It's like when I came home to Norway after Ecuador and I wanted to greet a girl, being a proper latino I leaned in to kiss her on the cheek, out of courtesy and proper manners. The result was a slap.
In Ecuador such was proper, in Norway it was absolutely not anywhere close to proper. The same thing applies not to your intention but to your actions.

In this situation, would you continue to walk around kissing random strangers on the cheek all the while insisting that it's a perfectly acceptable greeting; even though, everyone is telling you it's making them extremely uncomfortable?

(As an aside I've been on the opposite end to faith guardians experience. First time I met my Columbian friend she did the kissing on the cheek thing. I didn't slap her, but I did stand there for a sec dumbfounded thinking "Wait, who are you? I don't know you, why are you kissing me?" )

Really? I think it means the opposite, actually. I forgive you and I will pray for you means that although we disagree, although we don't see eye to eye on certain issues, I mean to give you the due respect I would give to any christian man, woman, or child.

But it mean something completely different to us. Take the n-word. Black people use it a lot amongst themselves. Hell, even if you're white if you have a good friend that is black they probably wouldn't mind you joking around coming up to them and saying "Yo, my n****". But if you walked up to a random black person and called them that, well you'd probably have a fight on your hands.

And I will pray for you.

I'll think for you.

Take Clirus for example, she's a very outspoken person with some very extreme opinions, but that doesn't make her a horrible person.

No, the fact that she wants to commit genocide makes her a horrible person.

She is someone who should be treated fairly.

She is being treated very fairly. Christian, Atheist, Muslim, whatever, I would hope that anyone coming on here and advocating genocide would be treated the same way.

We shouldn't shut her our because she says things we might not agree with. Instead we should embrace her differences, we should try to find common ground and learn to appreciate those things we do have in common.

I hate to Godwin this thread, but I'm glad you weren't in a position of power back during WWII. "We shouldn't shut Hitler out because he does things we might not agree with. Instead we should embrace his differences, we should try to find common ground and learn to appreciate those things we do have in common."

I know many of you hate me because I am a Christian. I know many of you hate me for my literal interpretation of the bible. I know many of you hate me because I think differently, and I speak differently than you do.

Like others have said, no one hates you. They might dislike your persecution complex or your attitude, but no one has even hinted at hating you.

But I can't change my ways to appease you. I can't compromise my relationship with our Lord. I need his grace and his guidance.

How would you stopping telling random atheist strangers that you'll pray for them compromise your relationship with Yeshua? (Man that sentence sounds horrible ) You may have meant for it to be entirely benign (and actually I do believe you did), but honestly (at least IMHO) after people have told you it's insulting and you continue to do it, it becomes even more insulting. To go back to the culture example, in my mind, you're now adding on "Your culture is inferior and you will conform to mine!" to the end of your "I'll pray for you"s. Does your relationship with your lord really mandate insulting those that don't see your way?

No Christian has ever bombed an abortion clinic.

Likewise, no Scotsman puts sugar in his porridge! Also, you're not Irish unless you drink whiskey(according to my uncle )

America (founded as a Christian Nation)...

Rewrite history in your mind all you want, you aren't fooling anyone.

It just do happens to turn out, it is the Atheists that violate Civil Law and get executed, so the Atheists imply they are being executed for being Atheists, but in reality the Atheist is being executed for violating Civil Law.

In this case, is the civil law under question "It is illegal to not be a Christian"?

There is no spontaneous increase in available information, complexity or energy.

Well great, that rules creationism out

 

[TheReasoner]

I tried to explain it, in fact, I said some similar stuff earlier on, but people around these parts seem to be pretty close-minded, they have a preconception about someone, and then they run with it, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Take Clirus for example, she's a very outspoken person with some very extreme opinions, but that doesn't make her a horrible person. She is a Christian. She is someone who should be treated fairly. We shouldn't shut her our because she says things we might not agree with. Instead we should embrace her differences, we should try to find common ground and learn to appreciate those things we do have in common.

But everyone here is so quick to judge and label, and say "you're a haughty genocidal proponent" etc. This is unfair. That's why I've said, read and reflect, read and reflect. Don't just read and respond without thinking or reflecting.

Zongerfield, we have not been quick to judge. Very far from it. Clirus has been on here for years. When she first came around with her views people didn't immediately react with the scalding she gets now. She got that gradually as people realized she was serious.

This is NOT a case of finding common ground Z. This is a case of a false prophet, a blasphemer, a heretic, a false shepherd who would make Jesus into the devil. Nothing less. WHat Clirus is advocating is so evil I do not have strong enough words for it. If you need some, I suggest you look at this:

and this:

Thing is, Zongerfield, this is not an exaggeration. If anything it is kind. Clirus is advocating something which is at least as bad as this, in my opinion possibly worse. After chatting with her for years now the position she holds has been verified time and time again. And you know what? A position which says that children should be killed, that in wars anything goes, in fact that in war the enemy should be nuked and carpet bombed and slaughtered to the last man, woman child and babe, a position which demands the wholesale slaughter of homosexuals, atheists, socialists, parents who got pregnant outside wedlock - and to top it off support this in the name of Jesus Christ... It is not an extreme position, Zongerfield. Let's not hide what that is. It is blasphemy, that's what it is. It is blasphemy and it is nothing any christian or decent person should tolerate in the least.

Read that last paragraph again Zongerfield. Both CLirus and Hitler want(ed) many of the same people dead. They both claim(ed) this is good and that it will benefit mankind no end, in fact that mankind will deteriorate if these people are not killed. But I listed a few points where Clirus actually tops Hitler. 1: She wants children killed. Not just the children of a specific group, but children who act badly. To my knowledge this exceeds Hitler's bloodthirst.
2: She will resort to complete annihilation of enemy states' people. This does exceed Hitler, who wanted to conquer, not kill everyone present in a given state.

Just as I would not and do not tolerate Hitler or any of his fanboys - not for who they are, but for what they promote - I cannot tolerate Clirus. Once because she promotes the same junk, and twice over because she does so claiming it to be "Christian"

 

[Zongerfield]

If only you took that view when it came to homosexuals, Atheists and others you disagree with. Before you start lambasting us, how about you look to your own conduct and apply that wholesome advice.

I do embrace those I don't agree with. Consider my friend Walt. He was not an individual I found appealing in the least. In fact part of me hated him for his crimes against young boys. But there he was, a sad sinner, reaching out for help. I could have shut the door in his face and told him to get the hell off my property. But I didn't I allowed him to have dinner with me. I allowed him to attend my church. I allowed him to read scripture that he so desperately needed to read (actually, in most instances, I read it to him and explicated the meaning). Over time, Walt found the Lord shortly before he died.

I've known many other sinners who have come to me for help. And I have helped introduce them to the Lord. They've accepted Jesus as their Savior and now they live a chaste and responsible lifestyle. I don;t turn anyone away. Never have, never will. It's not how we start the race of life, it's how we finish.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I do embrace those I don't agree with. Consider my friend Walt. He was not an individual I found appealing in the least. In fact part of me hated him for his crimes against young boys. But there he was, a sad sinner, reaching out for help. I could have shut the door in his face and told him to get the hell off my property. But I didn't I allowed him to have dinner with me. I allowed him to attend my church. I allowed him to read scripture that he so desperately needed to read (actually, in most instances, I read it to him and explicated the meaning). Over time, Walt found the Lord shortly before he died.

I've known many other sinners who have come to me for help. And I have helped introduce them to the Lord. They've accepted Jesus as their Savior and now they live a chaste and responsible lifestyle. I don;t turn anyone away. Never have, never will. It's not how we start the race of life, it's how we finish.

clirus would've had Walt executed.

it probably wouldn't have taken a whole lot of rationalization for clirus to have you executed for associating with Walt.

Consider that.