I don't believe in evolution... (2)

[TerranceL]

Tonto! Jump on it, jump on it, jump on it

YouTube - Sugar Hill Gang: Apache (Jump On It)

 

[TerranceL]

I'm curious, why can't he just, you know, listen to me when I pray now? Why do I have to be 'truly ready'? And what exactly is being truly ready?

The trick is you have to already believe.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

I like how Zongerfield is pretty much equating Nathan Poe with a pedophile. Classy.

 

[badtim]

You are excited by the opportunity to sin in the face of God.

and here i thought he was just talking about the average saturday night. you know, do a little dance, make a little love, have fun tonight, that sort of thing.

<-- there's a bong in the middle of them guys, you just can't see it.

 

[rjc34]

The trick is you have to already believe.

Ah, right, that little caveat...

 

[I <3 Abraham]

YouTube - Sugar Hill Gang: Apache (Jump On It)

Wow, I had no idea how many super racist things were in that video...

 

[Skavau]

Rebuke, and tolerate. Not rebuke then execute.

So you therefore disagree with clirus. In any case, why should I (amongst other secular individuals here) ask for your forgiveness when in your ideal world you would have us subjugated under a theocratic state where our atheism is "rebuked" by the state itself?

 

[I <3 Abraham]

"Something" being your own pride -- you just can't accept failure, can you?

In any case, the rebuke has failed -- I suppose my execution is impending now.



I'm afraid the only failure here is yours.

But I'll tell you what -- in the interest of fairness, I'll make a deal with you.

At 6:00 PM tonight, I plan to head out to a birthday party for a friend of mine.

I expect (knowing this friend as I do) that said party will include quite a bit of alcohol, possibly chemicals of a more illicit nature, men and women of, shall we say, highly negotiable morals, and that quite a bit of sin, vice, and debauchery will ensue until sometime just before dawn -- or the police arrive; whichever comes first.

If you are interested in preventing my participation in this event (and truth be told, it's kind of a long drive anyway) then you have an opportunity to rebuke me, right here and now, with the power of the Lord backing you up just as it did for your friend Walt, and if I feel sufficiently moved, I'll stay home tonight and read the Bible instead.

Wow, sounds like kind of a rager. But what kind of rager starts at 6:00? Isn't Universal Party Time 10:00? or 11:00?

It was back in my day, I tells ya!

Any who, don't let anybody get hurt, don't drive drunk (seriously, driving drunk is one of the easiest ways to become a murderer) and enjoy celebrating with friends rather than enjoying intoxication. The former leads to awesomeness, the latter leads to AA or the graveyard.

But dont worry too much about what people say, people accused Jesus of being a drunkard too...

 

[sdmsanjose]

Originally Posted by Zongerfield http://www.christianforums.com/t7548635-post57187866/#post57187866
Tonight, at 10:00 pm EST, pray to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Ask him for mercy, ask him for forgiveness, and ask him to restore your faith in his power and his grace. And if after your prayer, you don't feel even the slightest bit touched, ie the hairs on the back of your neck don't stand up, or if you don't sense a prickling in your inner-consciousness, than you can forsake the Lord and ask him to damn you to hell.

REPLY by Rjc34
Even I got in on this one. Sorry, no dice. I was actually sincere about it too. (You know, I'm a truth seeker, and want to know if there's really some god out there I'm just not 'experiencing'.)

But no tingling, no prickly feeling. Nothing. I get more feeling when listening to Beethoven's 9th. (Which incidentally is caused by the emotional response to it, and is the same as these 'feelings of the holy spirit' you are likely getting to).

I have not read in the Bible where “FEELINGS” are a prerequisite for believing that Christ is who He says He is. I can recall two biblical incidents where one believed and it does not appear that any tingling, prickly feelings, or hair standing up occurred.

Matthew 16
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven

Luke 23:42-44 (King James Version)

42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The one above in Luke probably had some feelings but they were of intense pain as he had spikes driven through his hands and legs to hold his weight up on a cross.

REPLY by Rjc34
Truth: a fact that has been verified; conformity to reality or actuality.

That's the truth I'm interested in. I'm not interested in wishful thinking or believing in that which can't be verified.

Rjc
Faith in the belief that God loves you and while we were in sin He sent Christ to die for us, and then raised Him from the dead so that you and I can be reconciled back to God upon our death will never be a fact that will be verified in our lifetime. Faith and “ a fact that has been verified” are not the same.

RJC, I am more like you than you probably want. I love verified facts! I am grateful that God chose and accepted the apostle Thomas. He is known as Doubting Thomas and wanted evidence of Christ rising from the dead. Jesus had Thomas put his hand into His side that was pierced at the crucifixion (ref John 20:25-27)


John 20
25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.


I am so glad that Thomas is in the Bible and was accepted as I am a doubting Thomas.

God is not shocked at our doubts and will do almost anything to reconcile us back to Him. God’s grace and love are the main theme of Christ’s teachings and is the power that moves the spirit of mankind towards God.

Rjc, I am a sinner saved by grace and no better than anyone else; in fact you maybe a better person than I am. I do not depend on my good works but on the gift of grace for my spiritual acceptance. If I start to become judgmental I look at the picture that I have on my wall, it says, “I prayed for justice then I examined myself and then I prayed for mercy and grace.”

 

[rjc34]

DISCLAIMER:

Any following responses from me are solely an opinion and not meant as blasphemy of any kind.
​

I have not read in the Bible where “FEELINGS” are a prerequisite for believing that Christ is who He says He is. I can recall two biblical incidents where one believed and it does not appear that any tingling, prickly feelings, or hair standing up occurred.

This is commonly what I hear from believers when they're telling me about what they feel as the Holy Spirit while they pray, worship, sing hymns, etc...

Rjc
Faith in the belief that God loves you and while we were in sin He sent Christ to die for us, and then raised Him from the dead so that you and I can be reconciled back to God upon our death will never be a fact that will be verified in our lifetime. Faith and “ a fact that has been verified” are not the same.

And I guess that's where the split is between most believers and non-believers. I tried faith for a while, but I became concerned not with what I wanted to be true, but what was objectively true.

RJC, I am more like you than you probably want. I love verified facts! I am grateful that God chose and accepted the apostle Thomas. He is known as Doubting Thomas and wanted evidence of Christ rising from the dead. Jesus had Thomas put his hand into His side that was pierced at the crucifixion (ref John 20:25-27)


I am so glad that Thomas is in the Bible and was accepted as I am a doubting Thomas.

While it's a nice story that helps many a person with their faith, personally I don't see any reason to think such an event ever happened.

I haven't fully decided where I stand on the Jesus issue, but I'm somewhere between him existing as some sort of Jewish rabbi who claimed to be the messiah, to complete Jesus myth theory. I look forward to studying more into the issue as I move forward in my university studies however. (Actually, I have a book on order right now in which the author is arguing that perhaps 'Jesus was a mushroom', ie psilocybin mushrooms, and was in face an 'experience')

God is not shocked at our doubts and will do almost anything to reconcile us back to Him. God’s grace and love are the main theme of Christ’s teachings and is the power that moves the spirit of mankind towards God.

(Bolded portion my doing) See, here's where we come to a deep impasse... It sounds nice in theory, but I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. (Both parts)

Rjc, I am a sinner saved by grace and no better than anyone else; in fact you maybe a better person than I am. I do not depend on my good works but on the gift of grace for my spiritual acceptance. If I start to become judgmental I look at the picture that I have on my wall, it says, “I prayed for justice then I examined myself and then I prayed for mercy and grace.”

Again, just my opinion again, but this is another deep issue I have with a lot of Christian denominations... the whole concept that 'you're broken and you need to be saved by Jesus!'.

I'm not broken. I'm not immoral. I do not need saving. If God wishes to send me to hell for non-belief, then so be it.

I will also say that you are definitely among the posters here who I deeply respect and admire. You are friendly, compassionate, and a great witness to the teachings ascribed to Jesus of Nazareth in the Gospels.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Reply by rjc
I haven't fully decided where I stand on the Jesus issue, but I'm somewhere between him existing as some sort of Jewish rabbi who claimed to be the messiah, to complete Jesus myth theory. I look forward to studying more into the issue as I move forward in my university studies

Rjc
Because we are alike in some ways I would like to suggest a book that you may want to add to your university studies. That book is:

New Evidence That Demands a Verdict, by Author Josh McDowell

He examines the evidence that relates to some of the biblical claims and texts

PS I verify facts for a living

Stan

 

[HosannaHM]

This is the main problem with Clirus' posts... Her manifesto is ether correct the sin, or if that fails execute the individual.

What do you propose for those who do not follow your command to 'correct' their 'sins'?

Pray for them and genuinely care

 

[rjc34]

Rjc
Because we are alike in some ways I would like to suggest a book that you may want to add to your university studies. That book is:

Evidence That Demands a Verdict, by Author Josh McDowell

He examines the evidence that relates to some of the biblical claims and texts

PS I verify facts for a living

Stan

Sure, I'll stick it on the end of my backlog of books to get through

Be aware that I'll be reading it alongside with a published rebuttal.


Also, may I ask what you do for a living? It sounds interesting.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Rebuke, and tolerate. Not rebuke then execute.

This would seem at odds with what you've said in the past. In particular, instances where you've said that you would support graded punitive punishment for certain misdeeds. Of course, you never specified which misdeeds, nor (more importantly) which of Clirus' specific policies you support. Now is your chance to do so plainly.

 

[Zongerfield]

I have not read in the Bible where “FEELINGS” are a prerequisite for believing that Christ is who He says He is. I can recall two biblical incidents where one believed and it does not appear that any tingling, prickly feelings, or hair standing up occurred.

Matthew 16
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven

Luke 23:42-44 (King James Version)

42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The one above in Luke probably had some feelings but they were of intense pain as he had spikes driven through his hands and legs to hold his weight up on a cross.

I can recall several miracles being performed in the bible where not only did the individual "feel" something, but the individual's life was significantly improved.

Blind Men
29 Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you”; 30 and their sight was restored. Jesus warned them sternly, “See that no one knows about this.” 31 But they went out and spread the news about him all over that region. -Mathew 9:29-31

Lepers
14 When he saw them, he said, “Go, show yourselves to the priests.” And as they went, they were cleansed.
15 One of them, when he saw he was healed, came back, praising God in a loud voice. 16 He threw himself at Jesus’ feet and thanked him—and he was a Samaritan. -Luke 17:11-19


Or course there are more, but I need not recount them all.

I don't believe you need to actually "feel" something to know God has touched your life or that he exists. But I and many others I know have "felt" the presence of God in their lives.

But to your point, where did I say that "feeling" God was a "prerequisite for believing that Christ is who He says He."

If I implied so much, than I am mistaken. But, may I ask you, have you physically "felt" the presence of God in your life?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Party ended earlier than I expected -- I'm back!

This party sounds like a bad idea. A very bad idea. I will pray that God gives you the strength to resist temptation, and I will pray that you - like Walt, when he felt the inner demons of his soul pull him in the wrong direction - end up finding the right path.

To be honest, you remind me a lot of Walt when I first met him. Walt was a very haughty person, he would gloat about his misdoings as if he was proud to be rubbing his sins in the face of God. That's essentially what you are doing here. You are excited by the opportunity to sin in the face of God. You are duly aware that carousing with immoral people and participating in their sinful activity pulls you further away from God, yet you enthusiastically proceed despite the better part of your conscience and soul instructing you to do otherwise.

I will not rebuke you. I will not tell you what you are doing is wrong. You already know this. You're no different than Walter was. And perhaps I should tell you what ended up happening to Walt. After he got released from prison and took the time to stop committing his perversions, he found God. He was saved. But the sinning of his past life caught up with him and he was struck down and killed. I know he is in the Kingdom of Heaven, but his time on earth was cut short because he chose the wrong path too many times. Maybe you can learn from Walt.

So, you didn't even bother to try -- seems like the only thing I'm going to learn from Walt is how to hide my sins under a mask of righteousness.

Perhaps I can fool you as thoroughly as he has -- won't that be fun?

Rebuke, and tolerate. Not rebuke then execute.

Well, that's not going to score you any points with clirus -- have a care she doesn't "rebuke" you for being soft on sin -- and then have you executed when the "rebuke" fails.

Is this is more or less how clirus' political philosophy seems to operate (I'm being kind and not referring to it as "theology"; truth be told, God has little if anything to do with it) -- whatever's even remotely Biblical is ineffective, so that we can get straight to the civil punishment -- the one with some bite to it.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Wow, sounds like kind of a rager. But what kind of rager starts at 6:00? Isn't Universal Party Time 10:00? or 11:00?

It was back in my day, I tells ya!

Any who, don't let anybody get hurt, don't drive drunk (seriously, driving drunk is one of the easiest ways to become a murderer) and enjoy celebrating with friends rather than enjoying intoxication. The former leads to awesomeness, the latter leads to AA or the graveyard.

But dont worry too much about what people say, people accused Jesus of being a drunkard too...

Well, seems like my friend wanted to keep his birthday relatively low-key (for him, anway) so it wasn't quite the rager I was expecting.

There were an interesting party games involving a deck of playing cards, a chocolate birthday cake, alcohol-laced whipped cream, and a DVD of American Pie, but good taste (and forum rules) prevent me from going into too much detail on that.

 

[rjc34]

Pray for them and genuinely care

Well I'm certainly alright with that!

(Not saying I support it, but that it's non-invasive and doesn't cause any annoyance to me)

 

[rjc34]

I can recall several miracles being performed in the bible where not only did the individual "feel" something, but the individual's life was significantly improved.

So how come today all I can expect is some tingly feelings? If I pray for the plantar wart on my foot to be healed, can God handle that? It's certainly a couple of orders of magnitude less of a miracle that curing leprosy.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I can recall several miracles being performed in the bible where not only did the individual "feel" something, but the individual's life was significantly improved.

you read stories -- good for you.

Stories are my business -- care to discuss a few?