I don't believe in evolution... (2)

[rjc34]

I agree with Clirus here. I think many of you have intentionally misrepresented her position to make her appear like a zealot.

This is why I asked everyone to reflect, and to pray for forgiveness.

No, she does a fine job of presenting herself as a zealot, no work from us needed. Her words speak for themselves.

Now, perhaps it is in fact you who should be praying for forgiveness, and perhaps apologize to the rest of us here.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Quote of Zongerfield
I agree with Clirus here. I think many of you have intentionally misrepresented her position to make her appear like a zealot.

This is why I asked everyone to reflect, and to pray for forgiveness.

Zongerfield
You need to quit dodging a question that is at the heart of the matter. You have said on several occasions that you agree with Clirus but you have failed twice to answer if you agree with Clirus on the VERBATIM quotes below:

Clirus, you state things that ARE NOT in the Bible. Listed below are two of your statements that are not supported by the Bible:

Quotes by Clirus
I believe the failure of a man to provide for his family should require execution of the man.

Enact Absolute Paternity legislation that would execute the father of a child that fails to make child care payments for an illegitimate child.


Zongerfield
Do you agree with Clirus's statements above?

Your seemly pious request for others to ask for forgiveness will ring hallow to ALL of us if you do not take a stand on one of the most crucial questions regarding you and Clirus.

Are you going to answer or dodge again?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I agree with Clirus here. I think many of you have intentionally misrepresented her position to make her appear like a zealot.

This is why I asked everyone to reflect, and to pray for forgiveness.

If you believe that someone here has intentionally misrepresented Clirus, then by all means show us where this alleged misrepresentation has occurred (i.e. quote someone on it). If it can be shown that what someone has said is not a misrepresentation (because Clirus has actually said something along those lines) then perhaps it is you that ought to be reflecting more. Once again, the question is asked of you: do you support what Clirus is proposing for society?

 

[Charlie V]

Just a quick question:

Do zealots regularly demand the execution of any man who cannot provide for his family?

Based on those quotes, Clirus does appear to be... something. I'm not sure I'd use the word "zealot" however.

I share with Art, a curiosity about what specific misrepresentation has supposedly taken place.

Charlie

 

[Zongerfield]

I believe I've already fulfilled your request, but I'll do so once more. When you first challenged me to show where you've misrepresented her position I pointed to the fact that you took her statements out of context. By doing so, you make her seem like a zealot. Clirus has clearly stated, many times, that their is a rebuking process that shall take place before more harsher forms of behavior modification are doled out. She was advocating a graduated scale of punitive measures. You make her sound like she wants to go around executing innocents. This is clearly not the case.

Many of you need to read and reflect, read and reflect instead of read and react, read and react. And for the record, I do support a graduated scale of punitive measures for militant homosexuals, liberal wastrels, zealot environmentalists and everyone else that seeks to change the fabric of this great Christian Nation.

 

[rjc34]

Many of you need to read and reflect, read and reflect instead of read and react, read and react. And for the record, I do support a graduated scale of punitive measures for militant homosexuals, liberal wastrels, zealot environmentalists and everyone else that seeks to change the fabric of this great Christian Nation.

So you're just as bigoted as Clirus is, fair enough.

Perhaps you need some remedial lessons on United States history, but the US was in no way founded upon the Christian faith. (That's a paraphrase from the Treaty of Tripoli).

Your homophobia, militant conservatism and theocratic ideals are the things that are ruining your (once) great nation.

 

[tulc]

I believe I've already fulfilled your request, but I'll do so once more. When you first challenged me to show where you've misrepresented her position I pointed to the fact that you took her statements out of context. By doing so, you make her seem like a zealot. Clirus has clearly stated, many times, that their is a rebuking process that shall take place before more harsher forms of behavior modification are doled out. She was advocating a graduated scale of punitive measures. ]You make her sound like she wants to go around executing innocents. This is clearly not the case.

But...she does. The people she wants executed are only guilty of not living according her likes and dislikes. Until one or the other of you starts making the rules here in America it still is just cliris setting herself up as final authority over what's right or wrong for several million people.

Many of you need to read and reflect, read and reflect instead of read and react, read and react.

You really are adorable when you try and sound wise and fatherly!

And for the record, I do support a graduated scale of punitive measures for militant homosexuals, liberal wastrels, zealot environmentalists and everyone else that seeks to change the fabric of this great Christian Nation.

oops! now it's you who gets to decide who's right and who's wrong?
tulc(would also point out America isn't a Christian nation, never has been, never will be)

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

It's truly chilling to see how much hatred Zongerfield expresses in his very choice of words: "militant homosexuals, liberal wastrels, zealot environmentalists and everyone else that seeks to change the fabric of this great Christian Nation."

You can almost see that all of these groups aren't people to him, but just enemies that need to be done away with if they refuse to assimilate according to his specifications.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I believe I've already fulfilled your request, but I'll do so once more. When you first challenged me to show where you've misrepresented her position I pointed to the fact that you took her statements out of context. By doing so, you make her seem like a zealot. Clirus has clearly stated, many times, that their is a rebuking process that shall take place before more harsher forms of behavior modification are doled out. She was advocating a graduated scale of punitive measures. You make her sound like she wants to go around executing innocents. This is clearly not the case.

Executing a single parent after the third warning isn't much of an improvement.

How long would you wait before executing a single parent?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

So you're just as bigoted as Clirus is, fair enough.

Perhaps you need some remedial lessons on United States history, but the US was in no way founded upon the Christian faith. (That's a paraphrase from the Treaty of Tripoli).

Your homophobia, militant conservatism and theocratic ideals are the things that are ruining your (once) great nation.

So sad that it takes a Canadian to set an American straight on US History.

I had no idea how close Zongerfield's ideals were to Clirus...they're a match made in heaven.

 

[Nathan Poe]

So sad that it takes a Canadian to set an American straight on US History.

I had no idea how close Zongerfield's ideals were to Clirus...they're a match made in heaven.

I was thinking of someplace warmer.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

I was thinking of someplace warmer.

Touche!

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I believe I've already fulfilled your request, but I'll do so once more. When you first challenged me to show where you've misrepresented her position I pointed to the fact that you took her statements out of context. By doing so, you make her seem like a zealot. Clirus has clearly stated, many times, that their is a rebuking process that shall take place before more harsher forms of behavior modification are doled out. She was advocating a graduated scale of punitive measures. You make her sound like she wants to go around executing innocents. This is clearly not the case.

Can you identify a specific quote where I have allegedly taken her statements out of context? If you read my posts you'll find that I do in fact acknowledge that Clirus advocates 'rebuking' as the first measure of control, and then elimination as the second. In reference to this, for example, I've quoted Clirus in saying that the policy is specifically one of 'three strikes and you're out'. I haven't denied this. I haven't misrepresented this fact, and I certainly haven't taken it out of context. On a global level, I see the wider context as being one of oppression and elimination of those who fail to ascribe to (Clirus' conception) of what constitutes the 'Christian Lifestyle'. Saying this is hardly a misrepresentation when it is based on things that Clirus has actually said about rebuking and execution in society.

Many of you need to read and reflect, read and reflect instead of read and react, read and react. And for the record, I do support a graduated scale of punitive measures for militant homosexuals, liberal wastrels, zealot environmentalists and everyone else that seeks to change the fabric of this great Christian Nation.

So, like Clirus you believe that disobedient children should possibly face execution? Like Clirus you believe that those who ascribe to ToE and the Big Bang theory should be disallowed by legal force from holding positions of leadership in the community? Like Clirus you believe that if homosexuals fail to get back in the closest then the State should consider 'other measures', including perhaps their elimination? Like Clirus you endorse the notion of punitive measures being taken against those who disagree with her particular view of what is a 'Christian Lifestyle'? A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

 

[Skavau]

I believe I've already fulfilled your request, but I'll do so once more. When you first challenged me to show where you've misrepresented her position I pointed to the fact that you took her statements out of context. By doing so, you make her seem like a zealot. Clirus has clearly stated, many times, that their is a rebuking process that shall take place before more harsher forms of behavior modification are doled out. She was advocating a graduated scale of punitive measures. You make her sound like she wants to go around executing innocents. This is clearly not the case.

This does not matter. The leniency clirus may or may or not hold before initiating execution is secondary to the fact that she desires it at all. She desires, and is on record for supporting the execution of adulterers, homosexuals, fornicators and effectively all non-Christians:

If rebuke and salvation fail to change the lifestyle of the Atheist/unbeliever, the Old Testament of the Bible is quite clear that Civil Law must exist that executes evil people that will not follow the established Civil Law. Evil people must be executed in order to preserve society. Civil Law must be consistent with God's Law in order to be good Civil Law as stated by Blackstone.

How fair she is with getting that correct and how much time she spends analysing who is really a Christian or not is irrelevant here.

 

[Zongerfield]

80% of this country identifies themselves as 'Christian'- we do indeed live in a Christian nation. Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian values. The words " that they are endowed by their Creator " are not plucked from thin air, they have meaning, they have resonance, and they have a source - biblical scripture. The majority of our founding fathers were Christians, save for Jefferson a deist and Franklin an atheist. But for the most part our founding fathers were Religious and invoked God on a daily basis, to say that our country wasn't founded on Judeo-Christian values is intellectually dishonest and borderline absurd. I know many of you probably proudly read Hitchens and his ilk and they have a way of re-authoring history to show a secular genesis of this country but all of that is a lie or a misrepresentation of the facts.


Additionally, I am not suggesting we execute disobedient children but I am suggesting we think seriously about the direction our country is headed. Thousands of unborn children are murdered each day and most of us stand by and watch with indifference. There's that old saying, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing'

Read and reflect, and pray my friends. It will do you good. As for your ill will toward me, and your general antipathy toward me, I forgive you and I will continue to pray for you.

Bless you all.

 

[Skavau]

80% of this country identifies themselves as 'Christian'- we do indeed live in a Christian nation.

I imagine 90%+ of Turkey are Muslims, but it is still a constitutionally secular republic. The amount of people who purport adherence to Christianity simply does not matter. I'll let actual Americans defend their historical heritage. They'll do it better than me.

Additionally, I am not suggesting we execute disobedient children but I am suggesting we think seriously about the direction our country is headed. Thousands of unborn children are murdered each day and most of us stand by and watch with indifference. There's that old saying, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing'

I want you to explain away clirus saying that all atheists/nonbelievers should be compelled to follow Biblical civil law.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

80% of this country identifies themselves as 'Christian'- we do indeed live in a Christian nation.

72.4% of the US population is white. Does that also make you a 'White Nation'?

Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian values.

Like what? Many of the inalienable rights championed in the founding documents of the US are never mentioned in the Bible. We don't read in Scripture 'Thou shalt have freedom of press, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion.'

But for the most part our founding fathers were Religious and invoked God on a daily basis, to say that our country wasn't founded on Judeo-Christian values is intellectually dishonest and borderline absurd.I know many of you probably proudly read Hitchens and his ilk and they have a way of re-authoring history to show a secular genesis of this country but all of that is a lie or a misrepresentation of the facts.

If it is so 'absurd' then show us what particular 'Judeo-Christian values' lay at the foundation of the United States?

Additionally, I am not suggesting we execute disobedient children but I am suggesting we think seriously about the direction our country is headed. Thousands of unborn children are murdered each day and most of us stand by and watch with indifference. There's that old saying, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing'

Read and reflect, and pray my friends. It will do you good. As for your ill will toward me, and your general antipathy toward me, I forgive you and I will continue to pray for you.

If you are not suggesting that society execute disobedient children then you are, in point of fact, disagreeing with Clirus' position. It seems though that you are being deliberately vague regarding which of Clirus' specific policies you support. So I ask you again:
Like Clirus you believe that those who ascribe to ToE and the Big Bang theory should be disallowed by legal force from holding positions of leadership in the community? Like Clirus you believe that if homosexuals fail to get back in the closest then the State should consider 'other measures', including perhaps their elimination? Like Clirus you endorse the notion of punitive measures being taken against those who disagree with her particular view of what is a 'Christian Lifestyle'? A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

I await to see where the alleged 'misrepresentation' of Clirus' positions has occurred.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

double post.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Zongerfield
Read and reflect, and pray my friends. It will do you good. As for your ill will toward me, and your general antipathy toward me, I forgive you and I will continue to pray for you.
Bless you all.

Zongerfield
I am a person that believes that Jesus is who He says He is. I am also a sinner that is saved by the love and grace of God. God took me off the condemnation throne a long time ago; it is not my job to point out all the sins of other people and how they have contaminated my world.

You believe like Clirus and concentrate on manipulating the main theme of the bible and change the main theme to be one of condemnation of others. You pious words about forgiving and blessing us seem a little like the Pharisees

 

[TheReasoner]

80% of this country identifies themselves as 'Christian'- we do indeed live in a Christian nation.

Sorry, but you don't act the part. How many wars have you been in? Why, if you're so 'christian' do the frequency of your armed conflicts increase? Why do so many of your people who claim to be christian support this bloodshed?

Additionally, I am not suggesting we execute disobedient children but I am suggesting we think seriously about the direction our country is headed. Thousands of unborn children are murdered each day and most of us stand by and watch with indifference.

Technically the word 'murder' is not etymologically correct. So don't use it, it detracts from your credibility.
Yeah. The US has high abortion statistics. And you know what? at least 10% of them could be avoided by way of a universal healthcare system. Not only that, but many other deaths and ruined families - both financially and otherwise - yet your 'christian' nation thinks it's more 'christian' to protect the wealth of the elite than to have a functional stable nation without poverty. Furthermore you often use 'christian' lingo to defend closing your borders and sending immigrants back.

Your rich get richer and your poor poorer, and you actually defend and promote that using "Christian" lingo and justification.


Your nation lives by the sword, it does exactly what Ezekiel said Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for (greed, refusal to help the poor and immigrants) and both the reason for Jesus' attacking the merchants in the temple and His reason for calling the pharisees the things He did - for not using one's political power for compassion, mercy and justice.

And you call your nation "Christian"

Talk about hypocrisy!

There's that old saying, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing'

Yep. So why don't you protest your wars, your death penalty, your social injustices? Why do you defend them in the name of Christ? What is that but at least taking the Lord's name in vain if not outright blasphemy?

Read and reflect, and pray my friends. It will do you good. [/QUOTE]

Perhaps you should take your own advice, pharisee.