I don't believe in evolution... (2)

[Charlie V]

The Wizard of Oz says, Don't Pay Any Attention To

I was just re-reading one of my posts from the other day, and I got to thinking. In my opinion, one of the biggest mistakes progressives make is letting the other guys control the conversation. I'm making the same mistake.

The conversation the anti-progressives want to have, is a carnival sideshow, just like the birther garbage.

Some of my earlier comments were quoted and responded to. Others of my comments were ignored. Within my ignored comments, there is much that the anti-progressives want to ignore, so I'm going to repeat an earlier point.

But first, a few words on sideshows, in a bigger font than they deserve.

"Socialism!" Sideshow.
"Atheistic!" Sideshow.
"Commit adultery and have illegitimate children!" Sideshow.
"entitlements!" Sideshow.


Now, I'd be interested to know about these things, because these are really the things that are driving our politics, and ruining our economy and ruining us all!

Big oil companies are funding our politicians campaigns, corporations are now allowed limitless secret funding of politicians and create a conflict of interest in the corporations favor and against the workers, and the oil companies have reaped billions of dollars in extra profits by raising your prices at the pumps! And guess what folks... they paid not one dime in taxes last year! Not one dime!

Seriously, are you guys over on the right side of the aisle okay with that??

When big oil companies and other corporations pay not one dime in taxes, when corporations dodge taxes at our expense, get sweetheart deals and hide their income in capital gains and other low-tax or tax free ventures and the multi-billionaire pays the same payroll tax as a person making $100,000, and the same income tax on his capital gains as a person making $8,000, and his corporation can pay $0 in taxes but can raise prices to no end for no other reason than to increase profit, and when they receive bailouts in the billions and award themselves multimillion dollar bonuses, do you really think that that's okay, because it's "free market" but you have a problem with those other... sideshows?

The corporations are really okay with you guys over on the right?

Really?

Seriously?

So okay, that when I comment on it, you ignore those comments and quote something else I said?

Charlie

 

[TheReasoner]

The Wizard of Oz says, Don't Pay Any Attention To

Well, do something about it
Join the open source community. If you have relevant knowhow, contribute.
Just check out this guy:

He has an idea which could, to a large part, topple big pharma with normal appliances.
From a home-built 3-D printer and an open source program he designed his tools which he attached to a Dremel multitool and uses to separate DNA from it's original organism, in this case a banana.

Cathal Garvey demonstrating Do-it-Yourself DNA extraction in a tent on Vimeo

At the end of the video, notice how he talks about getting life saving drugs to the people in poor nations. Also note how he says that we all need to care for things to work.

What contributed to this? Computer geeks who made 3-d modeling software. Hardware geeks who made a 3-D printer design you can build yourself. Biology geeks who found a way to combine these and separate DNA, others who found a way to do PCR in your own home. The potential benefit of this work is enormous.

Hop to it

 

[Zongerfield]

I just want to make a comment that I believe our conversation has taking a better direction. We are talking about politics and society and the forces at work instead of belittling each other with name calling (you're a hypocrite and a wretched wiccan, you're arrogant and haughty and no one respects you, etc.).

I'm happy we turned a corner and can come together to discuss the issues and how we view them within the framework of scripture. I'm pleased to know people care about my opinions after all.

Now to address some questions, do we all start at the same place?

No, we don't. Not even America. IF you grew up with negligent parents, or you grew up with homosexuals, or you grew up without a father, or you grew up as a victim of child abuse, you grew up without GOD or scripture in your life, you are starting with a disadvantage compared with those who grow up in a more traditional setting. But that's life. Not everyone starts from the same place. It's all a matter of how you deal with your "disadvantage." Some use it as a means of inspiration, some never get over it and adopt a victim mentality. Life is hard and unfair. Thankfully we have God.

If you look at someone like Tyler Perry who was molested as a child by men and women, who grew up poor, who could have easily given up, how is he doing today?

He triumphed over the evil in his life. He used it as motivation to do well in life and help others. Of course, he also found God.

 

[Charlie V]

I'm fairly certain that I've never called anyone any names.

I'm not even sure who or what you are responding to with all the other stuff, but the point of understanding the facts of any given situation, is not to point a finger of blame nor is it to say "woe is me" and to be a victim, but rather, to gain factual information about environment and circumstances which contribute to a situation for a better informed understanding and to better formulate responses to a situation, and to better prevent situations from occurring. What you call "victim mentality" is useless, but so is saying "Get over it. Life is hard." They are both useless. And yes, we do have God, and I believe that God wants us to gain as much information as possible, with as much compassion as possible, to deal with situations, to confront them. Last I checked, God doesn't magically transform the world into a wonderland of perfect joy with a wave of a hand, not even for the most devoted Christian. We are given power over the world, and we must deal with the world. The question is how we can help build a better world. The answer isn't, "cry and be a victim" and the answer also isn't "tell people to get over it." The answer is to learn, to study, to examine, to think, and to address situations accordingly. For example: Regarding child abuse, some people who have been subject to it require psychiatric help and have statistically been shown to benefit from it, and at the same time, knowledge of the facts of their situation may inform society about the warning signs so that future situations of child abuse may be identified and prevented. The search for such information and the attempt to help those who have been subject to child abuse, and the work toward preventing child abuse, is neither victim mentality nor the useless saying "get over it." Rather, it is empowerment. It empowers us to act towards helping others to become stronger, and to prevent incidents of abuse in others. Which, I believe, is precisely what God would want us to do, but I think those who do not believe in God would also see the wisdom in that course. It is rather self-evident that learning about a situation and responding accordingly, responding with knowledge and insight and making informed actions and not acting on impulse or judgment, acting in the best interests of parties involved and to prevent future problems is the best course of action in any given situation.

I think you should consider also, that many teen suicides have taken place when the teen was abused or neglected, and others said, "Life is hard. Get over it." That's why I would think very hard about holding such a position. Yes, it's true that some people overcome very difficult situations. But everyone is an individual, and every situation is somewhat different. There are responses that can help a person. Saying, "Get over it" isn't one of them. The way to deal with it is, not to cry victim, not to point blame, not to say "get over it," but to be empowered with information... to build self-esteem... and to learn all one can about the situation and help in ways that have been shown to help... and to also learn what happened to prevent future cases, such as the anti-bullying programs which should have been started a long time ago.

I must have missed some earlier posts, as I have no idea where that topic came from...

Now, how about those big corporations that pay no taxes, the oil companies that jack up prices at the pump to increase their trillions in profits while paying no taxes and polluting our shores and having unlimited funding in political campaigns... what shall we do in consideration of that predicament.

Charlie

 

[Nathan Poe]

Now to address some questions, do we all start at the same place?

No, we don't. Not even America. IF you grew up with negligent parents, or you grew up with homosexuals, or you grew up without a father, or you grew up as a victim of child abuse, you grew up without GOD or scripture in your life, you are starting with a disadvantage compared with those who grow up in a more traditional setting.

Now hold on a moment -- how are you making this connection? Some of the most abusive, negligent, and downright frightening people have just as much claim to having "God" in their lives as you do; furthermore, Seeing as how God is not limited by nor bound to traditions, he can just as easily be found in a single parent family, or in the adopted chid of a gay couple as He can be found anywhere else -- who are you or anyone else to say otherwise?

So it seems to be that right off the bat, you're starting from a faulty premise -- that "God" can only be found in the traditonal nuclear family.

Your response?

But that's life. Not everyone starts from the same place. It's all a matter of how you deal with your "disadvantage." Some use it as a means of inspiration, some never get over it and adopt a victim mentality. Life is hard and unfair. Thankfully we have God.

And is that God's purpose -- as the great social equalizer?

If you look at someone like Tyler Perry who was molested as a child by men and women, who grew up poor, who could have easily given up, how is he doing today?

He triumphed over the evil in his life. He used it as motivation to do well in life and help others. Of course, he also found God.

So which came first -- the triumph, or finding God? And is one necessarily a cause of the other?

 

[Zongerfield]

I must have missed some earlier posts, as I have no idea where that topic came from...

Now, how about those big corporations that pay no taxes, the oil companies that jack up prices at the pump to increase their trillions in profits while paying no taxes and polluting our shores and having unlimited funding in political campaigns... what shall we do in consideration of that predicament.

Charlie

This was a thoughtful response, with many interesting points. I've deleted most of it for sake of clarity.

Your point regarding "empowerment" is an important one, a point that I do not take lightly. We are empowered by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And we are "empowered" by our willingness to learn and study and work hard. Yet, at the end of the day, we all have to make difficult decisions. We can choose a route that leads to self-reliance or we can choose a route that leads to dependence. With few exceptions, the majority of us have the capacity to form our destiny through the decisions we make. Some choose wisely, make the tough decisions, sacrifice and end up reaping the fruits of their labors, others choose a path of hedonism, godlessness, dependency and end up suffering. The question then becomes for a society is, do we embrace the producers, those who choose correctly or do we embrace the wastrels, those who rely on others due to their own transgressions and poor decision making?

I side with the producers.

As for the oil companies, we live in a free society. If you don't want to purchase their product, you have the right to ride your bike or purchase an electric automobile. Or live in the trees at a college university.

You have choices to make. We all have choices to make. And we are the sum of our decisions. Choose God, choose love, choose hard work and things will turn out alright.

Bless you. I forgive you and I will continue to pray for you.

 

[Zongerfield]

Now hold on a moment -- how are you making this connection? Some of the most abusive, negligent, and downright frightening people have just as much claim to having "God" in their lives as you do; furthermore, Seeing as how God is not limited by nor bound to traditions, he can just as easily be found in a single parent family, or in the adopted chid of a gay couple as He can be found anywhere else -- who are you or anyone else to say otherwise?

Walt was, for the majority of his life, a horrible man. He found God and changed his ways. You're right, everyone has the capacity to find God.

Yet, embracing God is not just a simple decision. It requires self-reflection, self-criticism, embracing the tenets of his word, living a pious and responsible life.

So it seems to be that right off the bat, you're starting from a faulty premise -- that "God" can only be found in the traditonal nuclear family.

Your response?

God can be found in any family. But, God has mandated we follow certain rules. Homosexuality is an abomination. It says so, plain as day, in scripture.

And is that God's purpose -- as the great social equalizer?

God's purpose is to provide clarity and direction, and salvation for those who seek it.

So which came first -- the triumph, or finding God? And is one necessarily a cause of the other?

God is cause. Everything follows from that premise.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

God can be found in any family. But, God has mandated we follow certain rules. Homosexuality is an abomination. It says so, plain as day, in scripture.

Ah, Leviticus 18:22? Here's some other classic abominations from Leviticus (chapter 19):

19 “‘Do not mate different kinds of animals.
“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

26 “‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.

27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

So apparently the following are also abominations:
-Mules
-Most articles of clothing
-Rare steaks
-Shaving and trimming

Don't give me dispensation crap, and don't call out to New Testament condemnations of homosexuality, all of which are suspect interpretations of the original languages.

Frankly, you're wrong about homosexuality.

Also, gosh, children with gay parents grow up fine:

Nontraditional families and childhood progress thr... [Demography. 2010] - PubMed result
This study shows that kids from same-sex parent families do just as well in school.

US National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study: psy... [Pediatrics. 2010] - PubMed result
This study shows that kids of lesbian couples are well-adjusted

Children raised in mother-headed families from inf... [Hum Reprod. 2010] - PubMed result
This study shows that kids with mother-headed households (either lesbian or heterosexual) grow up just fine

Birds gone wild: same-sex parenting in albatross. [Trends Ecol Evol. 2008] - PubMed result
If it's good enough for albatrosses it should be good enough for us...

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Some choose wisely, make the tough decisions, sacrifice and end up reaping the fruits of their labors, others choose a path of hedonism, godlessness, dependency and end up suffering.

I question the linearity of that point. Those who, in your words, 'choose wisely' and end up reaping the fruits of their labors, are also susceptible to taking the path of hedonism and godlessness and needless suffering. People who are 'dependent', for lack of a better word, are not necessarily any more hedonistic than those who've supposedly made the 'right decisions' and earned money. It would seem that you've distinguished between two categories: those who reap the fruits of their labors and make wise choices, and those who are hedonistic, godless and suffering. You've placed welfare dependents, or 'wastrels' as you condescendingly call them, in the latter category. This judgment is speculative and premature.

The question then becomes for a society is, do we embrace the producers, those who choose correctly or do we embrace the wastrels, those who rely on others due to their own transgressions and poor decision making?

I side with the producers.

I reject your use of the term 'wastrel'. It is loaded with connotations.
But once again you are assuming that welfare dependents are in such a situation due to their own transgressions and poor decision-making. Sometimes that is the case. But far be it from being a rule. You also assume that dependents will remain dependents. That they do not transition into being producers.

 

[Charlie V]

As for the oil companies, we live in a free society. If you don't want to purchase their product, you have the right to ride your bike or purchase an electric automobile. Or live in the trees at a college university.

You miss my point. The oil companies, like many corporations, are not paying their fair share.

We are burdened with higher taxes, because they are dodging their responsibility. Christ said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's," yet they have deceitfully avoided doing so, in order to push the greatest burden on those who can least afford it.

Thus, the nation's debt goes skyrocketing as the rest of us struggle.

Surely, you do not condone dishonesty? They are being dishonest.

Charlie

 

[sdmsanjose]

When big oil companies and other corporations pay not one dime in taxes, when corporations dodge taxes at our expense, get sweetheart deals and hide their income in capital gains and other low-tax or tax free ventures and the multi-billionaire pays the same payroll tax as a person making $100,000, and the same income tax on his capital gains as a person making $8,000, and his corporation can pay $0 in taxes but can raise prices to no end for no other reason than to increase profit, and when they receive bailouts in the billions and award themselves multimillion dollar bonuses, do you really think that that's okay, because it's "free market" but you have a problem with those other... sideshows?

The corporations are really okay with you guys over on the right?

Really?

Seriously?

So okay, that when I comment on it, you ignore those comments and quote something else I said?

Charlie

Charlie
Zongerfield was probably really good at dodge ball in school. He will dodge questions or quote something else. Listed below are the latest questions that he has dodged.

Zongerfield


Why do you seem so adamant about pronouncing cuts to the poor, elderly, and sick but say nothing about corporate welfare and the rich being more of a Good Samaritan?


Why are you so bold about your interpretation of the constitution and politics but you do not mention what Christ’s teachings are about the poor, sick, the hungry, etc?

Ref post 534

 

[SonOfTheWest]

You miss my point. The oil companies, like many corporations, are not paying their fair share.

We are burdened with higher taxes, because they are dodging their responsibility. Christ said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's," yet they have deceitfully avoided doing so, in order to push the greatest burden on those who can least afford it.

Thus, the nation's debt goes skyrocketing as the rest of us struggle.

Surely, you do not condone dishonesty? They are being dishonest.

Charlie

What confuses me the most about the nature of the American debate is the ability of some groups to not understand a basic concept. You bring up a very good point in your quoted post. In addition to some spending problems, the US government also has a serious revenue process. And a great deal of that problem is due to too many undue rights being afforded corporations and tax loopholes. Some groups seem to argue that there is only a spending problem and not only ignore revenue problems but seeks to let companies get away with keeping even MORE money.

 

[Charlie V]

We can choose a route that leads to self-reliance or we can choose a route that leads to dependence.

We are all reliant on ourselves, and we are all dependent on others. That is how God made us.

Societies are living, breathing organisms, and human beings function best as part of that larger body. No man, alone, could have traveled to the moon. No company could function without each department being dependent on the other. Our lives depend on the reliability of our mechanics, or automobile manufacturers, our doctors, our educators, those who build the roads, the bridges, thos who purify our water supplies... an error made by a single one of these can lead to our untimely deaths.

I think that many of the people who cry for self-reliant, really are trying to abdicate their responsibility to a greater good, to the whole of society, and their responsibility towards others. I am not saying that you are one of those people, but it is my observation that many of those who cry loudest for self-reliance are those who do not want to be the shoulder that another may lean on, or who want to try to claim that the things that they say, the things that they do, do not affect others.

I believe the Bible makes clear from the very beginning, that we are our brothers' keepers. And our responsiblity for our own actions extends to our responsibility for how our actions affect and motivate others. A good teacher can create thousands of good, well motivated people for generations. A teacher of wrong can create thousands of wrongdoing people. We do influence other people, and we are responsible for the ripples we make in the lives of others. When we shine, others shine through us. When we darken lives, others lives are darkened through those whose lives we have darkened. Our children follow our example, as do the people we meet... and we follow examples we have seen. This is simply a fact. As we learn how to behave better, and to teach better, and to guide better, we can make the world a better place.

This is both humbling and empowering. I am humbled by the many influences that came to make me who I am, and I am empowered by the influence I may have in others to make the world a better place.

Charlie

 

[walkingxshadow]

i think completely dismissing evolution altogether is a very ignorant stance. so just because you think so you are automatically smarter than over a hundred years worth of research and scholars. thats also kind of arrogant. i dont think someone should be allowed to make that kind of statement unless they know what they are talking about. ie biology classes with emphasis in genetics. im a christian and i believe in evolution. i dont necessarily believe we evolved from apes but the process of evolution and genetics is pretty well supported. its pretty accurate. survival of the fittest is how the animal kingdom works. so the fittest survive and pass on their superior genes. and over time as beneficial mutations occur the genome gets altered and you eventually end up with a new species. and the bible doesnt say anything on this matter anyways. i also believe it would only be a cruel God that would make animals unable to adapt to changing environs, food sources, or disease. and i dont believe God is cruel.

 

[Charlie V]

i think completely dismissing evolution altogether is a very ignorant stance.

Evolution? What does this thread have to do with evolution?

::looks at title thread:: Oh, yeah. I forgot about that.



I agree with evolution. Then again, so do most people of most religious backgrounds.

It occurred to me some time ago, though, that Creationists and Evolutionists have something in common, and I think that that commonality should inspire us in profound ways:

Creationists who are strict Biblical literalistic interpreters believe that God made man from the dust, and woman from his rib. They were kicked out of the garden and were fruitful, and multiplied, and so, all human life was descended from Adam and Eve.

Evolutionists believe that, after the first life form came from the as yet unexplained process called abiogenesis, gradual mutations and natural selection's process of survival of the fittest caused single-celled life to become multi-celled, and, over billions of years, created the various species of life up to and including homo sapien life and our evolutionary simian cousins.

The commonality? We are all related.

Whether we're all descended from Adam and Eve, or we're all descended from single-celled life and a common link between our cousins the apes and human beings, your neighbors here and on the other side of the world, are all your relatives. The peoples here and the peoples in Africa and the peoples of Asia and Europe and Australia and the Americas, of every nation, all related, all brothers and sisters. A brotherhood and sisterhood of humankind. That is what Creationism and Evolutionism have in common.

If only they could all hold that brotherhood in their heart, and treat mankind as lovingly as tenderly and lovingly as their dearest relative, because literally, that's what we all are, by either of the two prevailing theories.

Charlie

 

[SonOfTheWest]

you had me up until the last part. Creation and evolution are not "two prevailing theories." One is a scientific theory, the other is just a theological argument.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

i think completely dismissing evolution altogether is a very ignorant stance. so just because you think so you are automatically smarter than over a hundred years worth of research and scholars. thats also kind of arrogant. i dont think someone should be allowed to make that kind of statement unless they know what they are talking about. ie biology classes with emphasis in genetics. im a christian and i believe in evolution. i dont necessarily believe we evolved from apes but the process of evolution and genetics is pretty well supported. its pretty accurate. survival of the fittest is how the animal kingdom works. so the fittest survive and pass on their superior genes. and over time as beneficial mutations occur the genome gets altered and you eventually end up with a new species. and the bible doesnt say anything on this matter anyways. i also believe it would only be a cruel God that would make animals unable to adapt to changing environs, food sources, or disease. and i dont believe God is cruel.

I highlighted in bold what I believe to be the most important part of your statement. It is possible to be a Christian, to be a theist in general, and to believe that Evolution provides a more-than-satisfactory account of biodiversity. There is nothing essentially 'Atheistic' about Evolution. It is believed that, for the most part, Darwin was an Agnostic, and some of the earliest adopters (and defenders) of evolution by natural selection were men of faith. The notion that there is some deep and necessary incompatibility between Theism and Evolution is, I believe, entirely imaginary.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Walt was, for the majority of his life, a horrible man. He found God and changed his ways. You're right, everyone has the capacity to find God.

And you've chosen to crow about your one alleged success story for what purpose?

Yet, embracing God is not just a simple decision. It requires self-reflection, self-criticism, embracing the tenets of his word, living a pious and responsible life.

I do hope you attempt some of that someday.

God can be found in any family. But, God has mandated we follow certain rules. Homosexuality is an abomination. It says so, plain as day, in scripture.

That's "scripture"; I thought we were talking about God.

You're hardly the first or the last person to confuse the two. It's not your fault; nobody blames you for being this way.

God's purpose is to provide clarity and direction, and salvation for those who seek it.

And when God provides a clarity that is not your own, and a direction which differs from the one you took, is the "salvation" any less valid?

God is cause. Everything follows from that premise.

So you claim -- now support your claim.

 

[Charlie V]

you had me up until the last part. Creation and evolution are not "two prevailing theories." One is a scientific theory, the other is just a theological argument.

Sorry.

I meant, "two prevailing schools of thought."

I didn't mean "theory" in its scientific definition.

I was going for "nice" and I was going for "unity over division" with that post. I wasn't going for perfection in word choice, which is often the most difficult thing.

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

Homosexuality is an abomination. It says so, plain as day, in scripture.

Allegedly. I've heard that that's a mistranslation of the ancient Hebrew. That it really says that child molestation for temple rituals is an abomination. That there wasn't even a word in ancient Hebrew that means "homosexuality."

Either way, I also know that the same books say that eating shellfish is an abomination. But I don't see any protesters at Red Lobster.

I say, pshaw. I know homosexuals. Two lesbian couples are in my family, and they're no more an abomination than anyone else I know.

What's an abomination is when people are hurtful toward one another. Those who think that homosexuality is an abomination do not know what they are talking about.

Charlie