I don’t even know what to think anymore

Heh, Putin ruthlessly and stupidly invades Ukraine and is up to his eyeballs in problems, both foreign and domestic, and now it is the west and Ukraine that are the bad guys for not finding an off-ramp for him?

If Putin and the Russians want to end it - go home. Duh. The Ukrainians have said that they will negotiate and enter into a cease fire if Russia withdraws to the pre-February lines. Putin says no, because he just wants a ceasefire to re-supply and bring some more cannon fodder in from Dagestan and Siberia. Nope.

The Ukrainians will probably never take Crimea but the bridge is coming down and they will continue to attack it to divert Russian troops and resources there. Putin has recalled some troops to protect him up in Moscow too because it is all about Vlad. So expect the Ukrainians and internal Russian resistance to continue to threaten him and the regime there. They will never occupy anything there but it forces Vlad to put resources that are there. needed at the front.

It will take the rest of the summer to determine if the Ukrainians can sever the land bridge to Crimea- it is 50/50. But if they do, and if they take the bridge down, then all of Crimea is totally trapped including all the troops there. So the Ukrainians are not going to take Crimea because it is a bargaining chip at some point. But Crimea and Putin have plenty to worry about there.

Nick1000 said:

Heh, Putin ruthlessly and stupidly invades Ukraine and is up to his eyeballs in problems, both foreign and domestic, and now it is the west and Ukraine that are the bad guys for not finding an off-ramp for him.

If Putin and the Russians want to end it - go home. Duh. The Ukrainians have said that they will negotiate and enter into a cease fire if Russia withdraws to the pre-February lines. Putin says no, because he just wants a ceasefire to re-supply and bring some more cannon fodder in from Dagestan and Siberia. Nope.

The Ukrainians will probably never take Crimea but the bridge is coming down and they will continue to attack it to divert Russian troops and resources there. Putin has recalled some troops to protect him up in Moscow too because it is all about Vlad. So expect the Ukrainians and internal Russian resistance to continue to threaten him and the regime there. They will never occupy anything there but it forces Vlad to put resources that are there. needed at the front.

It will take the rest of the summer to determine if the Ukrainians can sever the land bridge to Crimea- it is 50/50. But if they do, and if they take the bridge down, then all of Crimea is totally trapped including all the troops there. So the Ukrainians are not going to take Crimea because it is a bargaining chip at some point. But Crimea and Putin have plenty to worry about there.

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No basis in reality.

I have always believed that NATO has been inching towards Russia ( & the CIS, I presume). It is interesting that prior to the Trump administration that upheaval in Ukraine was routine and resumed with the current administration. While Trump was president NATO seemed to be on the decline & Russia & Ukraine floundered. Except for the unfortunate Donbas, there was far less & no additional conflict. I sincerely believe Trump pursued non interventionist policy & left Ukraine & Russia to work things out.

I tend to believe there must have been poor Russian analysis of Zelensky leading up to this war. Whatever Zelensky was prior to the war, it does not seem he had any great desire to “go NATO.” I am no great booster of Zelensky but he inherited plenty of problems ( like the Donbas conflict) and while abuses festered under him, I believe he was more ineffective in dealing, rather than initiating, abuses from 2019-22. Plus whatever atrocities were committed in the Donbas, these abuses are probably mutual.

I believe since this war Putin has progressed from being an efficient, & sometimes ruthless, leader to a monster. I believe Zelensky has shown a fortitude that few believed he had. Unfortunately, I tend to believe Zelensky may also becoming, at a catch up rate, a monster just like good ol’Putin.

yes, quite an interesting perspective to contemplate; how will Zelensky continue in his governance should the war find a completion within his career lifetime.
I suppose I hoped there would be a change of leadership, from a wartime, to peace governing following the war, but maybe not.
It's a general rule in British politics that wartime prime ministers work poorly in peacetime, and vice versa. I wonder if the same is true elsewhere in Europe

Russia strikes Odesa cathedral, as Putin claims counteroffensive 'failed'​

Russia's latest strike on Odesa on Sunday killed two people and severely damaged a historic Orthodox cathedral, drawing a vow of retaliation from Ukraine's leader.

The 18th century Transfiguration Cathedral, the biggest Orthodox church in Odesa, lies within the UNESCO-protected historic city centre.

Nick1000 said:

Russia strikes Odesa cathedral, as Putin claims counteroffensive 'failed'​

Russia's latest strike on Odesa on Sunday killed two people and severely damaged a historic Orthodox cathedral, drawing a vow of retaliation from Ukraine's leader.

The 18th century Transfiguration Cathedral, the biggest Orthodox church in Odesa, lies within the UNESCO-protected historic city centre.

Russia strikes Odesa cathedral, as Putin claims counteroffensive 'failed'

Russia's latest strike on Odesa on Sunday killed two people and severely damaged a historic Orthodox cathedral, drawing a vow of retaliation from Ukraine's leader.The 18th century Transfiguration Cathedral, the biggest Orthodox church in Odesa, lies within the UNESCO-protected historic city centre.

news.yahoo.com

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Yeah, war sucks. Too bad NATO keeps pushing for it

Nick1000 said:

Russia strikes Odesa cathedral, as Putin claims counteroffensive 'failed'​

Russia's latest strike on Odesa on Sunday killed two people and severely damaged a historic Orthodox cathedral, drawing a vow of retaliation from Ukraine's leader.

The 18th century Transfiguration Cathedral, the biggest Orthodox church in Odesa, lies within the UNESCO-protected historic city centre.

Russia strikes Odesa cathedral, as Putin claims counteroffensive 'failed'

Russia's latest strike on Odesa on Sunday killed two people and severely damaged a historic Orthodox cathedral, drawing a vow of retaliation from Ukraine's leader.The 18th century Transfiguration Cathedral, the biggest Orthodox church in Odesa, lies within the UNESCO-protected historic city centre.

news.yahoo.com

Click to expand...

Dogheaded said:

Yeah, war sucks. Too bad NATO keeps pushing for it

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Lord have mercy

Lord Have Mercy!

Built 1795-1808, demolished in 1936 (soviets), rebuilt 1999-2003, heavily damaged 2023. The church is resilient and will rise again from these ashes

I don’t know why the area including the cathedral was chosen for artillery fire but the general area of destruction includes several apartment buildings.

The horrors of war indeed. We may never know the intelligence for this attack, but churches, hospitals, and schools are often used to dissuade the enemy from attacking as it looks awful in the news (quite rightly).

tapi said:

We are still waiting for certain individuals to move from talk to action and enroll in the fight against Satanism, Globohomo, Globalism, NATO, et all. Since it is an apocalyptic battle, it is very difficult to see what excuse there could be.

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Hi, Tapi!
Your words seem strange to me. Who exactly are you waiting for to do what exactly? Some people are doing nothing, others are truly doing what they can. How do you know who is doing what or what is the wisest thing to do? I think all of us can pray. I gave up my long home in Russia and left everything behind, from my wonderful library to my cat, To say nothing of an apartment that was paid for and the place I had planned on retiring and dying in.

I also do my part by revealing the falsehood of language. If more people understand what I’m saying about that, then fewer people will be saying the kind of words that help make some of these things possible in the first place.

Our ultimate enemies are demonic, not so much other people or nations. Surely you know the only realistic ways we can fight such things.

Well I have to correct myself on part of my understanding of the Ukraine war. I was under a mistaken belief that Zelensky was originally NATO neutral. The tilt towards NATO preceded Zelensky but he supported it. Pro NATO sentiment in Ukraine also was increasing prior to Zelensky.

There is an interesting statistic that in 2012 only 28% of Ukrainians supported joining NATO. So this raises questions on the causes & effects of what transpired in the 2014 Donbas conflict.

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

Lord, have mercy.

Lukaris said:

Well I have to correct myself on part of my understanding of the Ukraine war. I was under a mistaken belief that Zelensky was originally NATO neutral. The tilt towards NATO preceded Zelensky but he supported it. Pro NATO sentiment in Ukraine also was increasing prior to Zelensky.

There is an interesting statistic that in 2012 only 28% of Ukrainians supported joining NATO. So this raises questions on the causes & effects of what transpired in the 2014 Donbas conflict.

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

Lord, have mercy.

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That’s what I saw in 2012. Peaceful, friendly relations between the two nations. Heck, I didn’t even know that the Ukrainian governmnt put a declaration of determination to join NATO into their Constitution in 2019 until I learned of it
last year. I had to fact-check that one. The clamor to join NATO started in 2014, of course, and our politicians promised them membership with no intention or ability to keep such a promise, which only emboldened a growing anti-Russian sentiment. I defended the Russian side for years, as many here doubtless remember. The Crimea was only taken after the Maidan and Orange Revolution. No one side is innocent. But when people say that Russia was never provoked, I remember twenty years of actual provocation and I will still accuse the West, AND the Ukraine, of that, even though the Russian invasion was terrible, and going beyond the Donbass, in my mind, inexcusable.

Russia was wrong to invade. Wrong, wrong, wrong. It gave the plutocrats running the West all the ammo they needed. It unquestionably turned ordinary Ukrainians into victims (as well as everyone caught in the crossfire there and all Russians (and people like me) who dissented).

But those who pretend there was no provocation are deliberately blind by choice as well. Like those who only see evils done to Russia and believe the Russian propaganda, they see what they choose to see, and believe propaganda of their own.

I think Rus lays things out well. When Putin was mounting up massive troops along the Ukrainian border, I thought it was bluster, saber-rattling, bravado aimed toward negotiations. I never thought he’d actually invade. I was wrong. And I was disappointed. Putin’s invasion brought NATO closer together, actually inspired new countries to join NATO, and gave the West a new reason to hate Russia.

But isn’t that what NATO wanted and needed? NATO was dying on the vine. Seeing Trump sit at the table across from Jens Stoltenberg and tear him a new rectum was a thing of beauty. The alliance was shown to be a waste of $$$$ and the dues paid from member nations was supremely uneven and inequitable. But, darn, it's funny how this manufactured war changed all that in the absence of Trump, isn't it? So odd! You have a dying alliance that is quickly showing itself to be useless and irrelevant suddenly show it is more relevant than ever!

It really reminds me of an old show called The Outer Limits. I'm sure of anyone here, Rus would most likely recall it. There is an episode that comes to mind---The Architects of Fear. Robert Culp. The world is a mess and they need unity, so they need to create a boogeyman. They need a common foe, a villain, a foil, in whom the world can pour its collective disdain and disgust to distract from their own problems and failures. As a result, these scientists draw lots and Culp is chosen to undergo this awful surgery wherein his final destination is to become a hideous alien. They turn him into this vile creature and build him a spaceship. They have him land on earth as this foreign and malignant force for the world to hate....together.

We don't have alien surgery....yet, so we do the next best thing---create a foe through goading and persecution and isolation along with threats.

I don't want to sound like Rod Serling, but, imagine, if you will......Russia has been wanting a war with the U.S./NATO, so in 2010 he convinces Mexico to enter into an alliance with the Russian Federation. He infuses money into the Mexican economy, helps them tap into their energy potential, provides them with weapons, opens up businesses and manufacturing there, and helps facilitate trade with them as well. The United States isn't happy, but does nothing. Then, Russia does the same with Guatemala and Honduras, and you see Russians marching around Panama.....Pretty soon Russia gets so daring that they meet with Canada and have talks, very vocal talks that they are offering Canada a massive defense, economic, and trade package along with military garrisons if, and only if.....Canada will join their Collective Security Organization and declare themselves independent of the Commonwealth and NATO. The Canadian government starts publicly declaring this is tantalizing and a distinct possibility they're considering.....

Nobody likes this war. I don't. And when I saw the story about the cathedral in Ukraine getting bombed, my heart sank. Beyond sad. Disgusting. But are we surprised? Russia is using primitive munitions and bombs from the Leave it to Beaver era as they, like us, are getting low on weaponry. The wood-chipper of death is draining. They're using nasty bombs that have no precision---just hapless havoc takes place. And we're sending in cluster bombs, something we previously claimed was barbaric and off the table. Apparently barbarism has its place after a while? Russia is a careless and havoc-creating nation. They always have been. They don't mind some catastrophic collateral damage. Sad.

What would the United States do? <cue the Gomer Pyle music here> Are we really stupid enough to think that the U.S. would NOT invoke Monroe Doctrine long before any of this even happened? Would the U.S. not invade Mexico or Guatemala or Canada on some trumped-up excuses just to ensure Russia never got a foothold in the Western Hemisphere? As @Nick1000 might say, "DUH!" The Monroe Doctrine was and still is the policy of the United States. Nobody. I repeat, NOBODY, runs this part of the world except the gringo empire of the U.S. The rest of these poor slobs in Argentina, Costa Rica, Peru, Mexico, Ecuador, they're under the dominion of the mighty empire, the U.S. The Russians see the same thing in their part of the world----Bulgaria, Serbia, the Baltics, Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia, Romania, Hungary, Poland, that area is the Eastern dominion traditionally held by Russia. And in the past few decades we've dangled out the candy bar on a stick getting many of those countries to join NATO. Monroe Doctrine in reverse. This has been about hegemony in the region. Yeltsin, being a weak drunk, would've allowed all this to happen possibly (although even he kept warning against NATO incursion!), but Gehenna would freeze over before a tough guy like Putin would permit this nonsense and hypocrisy to kick in.

At a political level the U.S. has been beyond hypocritical with all this. At a spiritual level this was always aimed at splitting and hurting and frustrating the Orthodox Church. There will be those who accept this phony graceless non-canonical farce of a "church" in Ukraine to exist that Mike Pompeo and our illustrious Ecumenical Patriarch created (sigh). And there will be those who support the real Church in Russia. There are Orthodox Christians, sometimes even in here, who love to attack Patriarch Kyrill in Russia. While I don't agree with some of his oddities like promising soldiers martyrdom salvation and a few other things, he obviously sees the forest for the trees better than the EP. Splitting and weakening and wounding the Orthodox Faith was a huge component of this conflict. And IT'S WORKING!

Putin is a tough guy. I'm a teacher, as most of you know. This will be year 26 for me. When you have a tough kid in your class who gets in trouble from time to time, let's call him Mike, and you tell all the good kids in your class, "Hey, Mike is a little thug. Don't play with him on the playground. Don't talk to him. Don't help him. Don't look at him!" what will inevitably happen is Mike will find all the worst kids on the playground who are in the same boat as he is. Mike will seek out like-minded trouble-makers, and as he perceives the teacher and other kids ganging up on him, he'll develop a chip on his shoulder becoming worse. Putin will only behave with more naughtiness and seek out more Iranian, Cuban, North Korean, and Chinese help in the coming months and years as we further isolate, humiliate, and try to crush Russia. If we're the good teacher, we'll try to end this war and drop the sanctions, try to rehabilitate and build bridges. But that isn't going to happen....because America is not the good teacher. We're the spiteful one. And we want to see the playground fight. We've been building it up for about 8-9 years now. FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

Putin and Russia committed a massive blunder. World class stupid.

All of which has backfired and created new NATO members, with more to come, and massive escalation of NATO power within the existing NATO members as well and of course within Ukraine itself. The EXACT OPPOSITE of what the military genius Putin wanted.

Which results in posts from the Putin apologists getting longer and longer by the day. Admittedly it is difficult to put lipstick on this pig and pretty it up.

What a disgrace. Both Putin and Russia.

As discussed, Putin and Russia have destroyed much of Ukraine and are now well on their way to destroying Russia as well. Continuing to hide Putin's bottles for him only accelerates that process. The great "Russian World" scam has put Russia on the path to becoming a colony of China. Turn back.

In Poker a player must establish himself as a tight player who plays his cards straight before he can bluff. Because a bluff must be credible. And only once repor has been established does the player bluff, being now able to successfully play a loose game.

Russia could not bluff a NATO that is too arrogant to see it as anything other than a bluff, therefore Russia would need to be holding the cards and would necessarily have to play them, otherwise Russia would not be a credible player and can't bluff in the future.

Game theory here accurately predicts the outcome.

NATO chose not to fold and now the cards are being scored. Having chosen not to fold, NATO will attempt to keep credibility by not backing down and the longer NATO stays on, the greater it's credibility loss will seem to be, this toughening NATO's resolve. But NATO has a population more likely to be war weary, so there is a clock for NATO, albeit one that may be altered with election propaganda. Russia, so long as it keeps it's two breakaway states will retain credibility better, so it is in a better position. It's a game which we might find out to be nuclear chicken - the Biden administration has altered our nuclear policies to make such significantly more likely.

NATO, like Ukraine, is probably overreached already and should have adopted another goal for a credible out. Namely, to lose the fringe to defend the core.

Heavy is the head who wears the crown. A certain ruthlessness is required. Machiavelli, the Philosopher of the Republic, was right in what he layed out in his discourses on Livy. It is better for a prince to be feared than loved, but he cannot be hated. He cannot be generous, because this impoverishes the people. A wayward republic requires a redeeming prince.

Nick1000 said:

Putin and Russia committed a massive blunder. World class stupid.

All of which has backfired and created new NATO members, with more to come, and massive escalation of NATO power within the existing NATO members as well and of course within Ukraine itself. The EXACT OPPOSITE of what the military genius Putin wanted.

Which results in posts from the Putin apologists getting longer and longer by the day. Admittedly it is difficult to put lipstick on this pig and pretty it up.

What a disgrace. Both Putin and Russia.

As discussed, Putin and Russia have destroyed much of Ukraine and are now well on their way to destroying Russia as well. Continuing to hide Putin's bottles for him only accelerates that process. The great "Russian World" scam has put Russia on the path to becoming a colony of China. Turn back.

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Why don’t you just address me personally, Nick. Instead of the hokey insult of “Putin apologist” and the somewhat obvious “longer and longer” not-so-cryptic reference, just say my name.

You don’t address my points, just lay out blanket hyperbole. That gets old. You never address Maidan/Revolution of Dignity and quiet US/NATO buildup or Minsk or the murder of Donbass Russians for a decade or the systematic Russophobia put in place against that entire region. You don’t address Zelensky arresting, tear-gassing, and harassing canonical clergy in Ukraine. You don’t address Zelensky censoring all media except his own (but you’ll address mean ole autocrat Putin!). You don’t address Zelensky creating a one-party government. You leave out Naziism, a fake non-canonical
“Church” created by the EP and Pompeo. You leave out the fact that Ukrainians have shelled many of their own church temples, and you leave out expulsions from the Kiev Caves and monasteries.

You also seem to be ok with pride parades and a comedian running a country who once had comedy acts playing a piano with his penis and making jokes about murdering Russians. You seem to favor a panhandling Jewish autocrat who has done nothing to seek peace.

Your posts show no awareness of NATO’s goading and planning the past decade. Honestly, Nick. Let’s trot out some names, ok?

Mittens McRomney
Mitch the Turtle
Nancy
McCain
Pencey (“America is not my concern”)
AOC
Schiff
Biden
Kamala
Lindsey Graham
Hakeem Jeffries
Clyburn
Schumer
Durbin
Klobuchar
Bernie
Ernst
Lizzie Warren
Maxine Waters
Hillary Clinton
George W.
George Soros
Klaus Schwab
Justin Trudeau
Macron
Outright International (LGBT)
NASH SVIT
IGLYO
WEF

what do you think all these evil crooks have in common?

Tonight we watched Argo at my house. Great movie. It’s been 7-8 years since I last saw it. Looking back at the Iranian crisis of 79-80, it just keeps dawning on me how much our foreign policy has been a total disaster for the past 50 years or so.

Installing a puppet Shah in Iran. He ends up with a secret police that arrests and tortured people, extravagant over-the-top opulence for himself and his every appetite satiated, as many as 100,000 political prisoners taken, the tent city outside Persepolis for the elite Western celebration of the 2,500th anniversary, the shortages, the inflation, the stupidity. Not only did we install an evil crook, but our intelligence estimations revealed zero threat to his rule and zero revolutionary potential.

Shah Reza
Saddam Hussein
Osama
Vietnam
Afghanistan withdrawal to Taliban
Zelensky

When will we ever learn?

You forgot to mention Vicky Nuland.

I agree with you, Gurney, the points that slightly diverge being only to note that 1) the Nazism, to my knowledge, has been primarily linked to the Azov Battalion, and there are people sympathetic to Bandera. Mostly it is not out and out Nazism, but the Azov’s choice of symbolism and the government inćorporating them is what gives fuel, the small part of truth to the generally false charge that Ukrainians in general support Nazism. In my opinion, Ukrainization also hurt the Ukrainians, this fed into the exaggerated Russian charges, and
2) The Russian Patriarch/y backing Stalinist imagery, and actively punishing priests who think the war is bad and who pray for peace and an end to bloodshed in their churches, and in general, backing the war, something I don’t think the Church should be doing.