I disagree with a lot of stuff in the Westminster Confessional.

[4jacks]

Okay... I know this topic is going to ruffle some feathers, so I'm going to ask politely that If I ruffle your feathers, please forgive me and please just don't respond, I don't wanna debate anything.

But my situation is this. I was raised in a PCA, I'm currently an active member. I enjoy the service and appreciate the teaching that my pastor offers. BUT ... and it's a big but...


I simply do not agree with a lot of stuff in the Westminster confessional, I think they are some big issues too.


I honestly feel kinda cheated by the PCA, because although, my pastors have always preached good biblical messages, I never really knew a lot of the stuff the PCA clings to until I actually started reading the Westminster confessional.


It really seems like I go to church to get a nice sermon on a book of the bible, acts, or john, or proverbs. My pastor always goes through a book, he never does Topical Studies, Like a series on Marriage, or on Stewardship. So it seems like I never LEARN anything.


I listen to a lot of Tony Evans and have really been influenced by his teachings alot. I really love his way of preaching on a topic.

Anyway I'm not starting to think about my future in this church, and it honestly looks pretty dim.


So here are my questions:


Can I still become an elder or a deacon If I completely disagree with the westminsters veiw of Predestination?


I understand that I would have to state what I don't agree with and give an explaination, so here it is breifly.


I believe that God does know exactly who will and won't be saved. I don't believe that he over rides the free will he has given us to make us accept Christ.


So all debating my beliefs aside, what does my future hold in this PCA, will I always be just a member. Becuase I really wanted to start getting involved in more ministries and looking into becoming a deacon.


Right now I help run our Car Care Ministry, and I really enjoy it. I would like to become a bigger part of the church.


Should I just start looking for a new church, or should I approach the elders and make my concerns known?

 

[Jon_]

Can I still become an elder or a deacon If I completely disagree with the westminsters veiw of Predestination?

No. At least, I hope not.

I understand that I would have to state what I don't agree with and give an explaination, so here it is breifly.

I believe that God does know exactly who will and won't be saved. I don't believe that he over rides the free will he has given us to make us accept Christ.

So all debating my beliefs aside, what does my future hold in this PCA, will I always be just a member. Becuase I really wanted to start getting involved in more ministries and looking into becoming a deacon.

Right now I help run our Car Care Ministry, and I really enjoy it. I would like to become a bigger part of the church.

Should I just start looking for a new church, or should I approach the elders and make my concerns known?

If your church is orthodox, you will certainly and rightly be barred from any official ministry position, but they should not forbid you from all ministry activities, such as the Car Care Ministry. Since your doctrine is unorthodox, non-confessional, and unbiblical, the church will probably prevent you from any teaching position, which would be the proper action.

I would approach the elders and make your concerns known. You should give them to opportunity to explain the Confession to you and to explore the scriptural evidences that support it.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[tigersnare]

Solid Jon, as usual

 

[4jacks]

No. At least, I hope not.

Dude, Seriously, it rude statements like that, that just make me wanna find a new church.

I politely asked that we NOT get into some big debate, I just wanna know what the PCA stands on this issue. I've read somewhere that if you have a disagreance with the Westminster you have to declared if/when you are ordained.

I just want to know whether this is standard thing or not.

 

[Jon_]

Dude, Seriously, it rude statements like that, that just make me wanna find a new church.

I politely asked that we NOT get into some big debate, I just wanna know what the PCA stands on this issue. I've read somewhere that if you have a disagreance with the Westminster you have to declared if/when you are ordained.

I just want to know whether this is standard thing or not.

Whoa, whoa, hang on, friend. I didn't mean that in a rude or derogatory sense. Perhaps I should have phrased it in softer terms. I can certainly be candid to a fault. For that, you have my apologies.

My statement was meant to express hope in the orthodox confession of the church you attend. Now, I certainly cannot apologize for my position that you should not be allowed to teach. If your pastor is convicted of the truth of the Confession, it would be grave sin for him to allow you to teach contradictory to the Confession. I hope that you understand this. Your pastor and your elders have been given a huge responsibility. To be made a shepherd of the flock is to be made a man that will be accountable for his shepherding. And the Bible is quite clear that teachers will be judged more harshly than non-teachers (James 3:1). For this reason, your pastor cannot, in good conscience, allow you to teach unbiblical doctrine.

I would sincerely encourage you to take your concerns to your elders and to give them the opportunity to answer. There might be some things that you are misunderstanding or there might be some things that can be cleared up for you by them. The Westminster Confession of Faith is document of very strong theology and is not something that appeals to the common conceptions of men. It is founded upon sound, biblical doctrine, and written by godly, pious men who had the glory of God at the forefront of their minds. The very history and gravity of the document itself should encourage you to at least endeavor to fully understand their position.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[4jacks]

Whoa, whoa, hang on, friend. I didn't mean that in a rude or derogatory sense. Perhaps I should have phrased it in softer terms. I can certainly be candid to a fault. For that, you have my apologies.

np

My statement was meant to express hope in the orthodox confession of the church you attend. Now, I certainly cannot apologize for my position that you should not be allowed to teach. If your pastor is convicted of the truth of the Confession, it would be grave sin for him to allow you to teach contradictory to the Confession. I hope that you understand this. Your pastor and your elders have been given a huge responsibility. To be made a shepherd of the flock is to be made a man that will be accountable for his shepherding. And the Bible is quite clear that teachers will be judged more harshly than non-teachers (James 3:1). For this reason, your pastor cannot, in good conscience, allow you to teach unbiblical doctrine.

I understand what you believe and why you believe, I just disagree. I was offended when you referred to my beliefs as unbiblical. That is incorrect. I base all my beliefs from the bible as I understand them. I do not think your beliefs are unbiblical, I just disagree. Like I said I don't want to get into the debate of why.
I understand that I would not be allowed to Teach Non-Predestination, And I really don't have a problem with that. One of the main things I disagree about w/ calvinist is the importance of Pre-destination, granted I disagree with it, I simply just don't think it's important of exactly HOW you chose Jesus, I think it's more important that you DO chose Jesus, and what you DO now that you have.
I really have no intentions of Teaching Non-Predestination, I feel more called to a santification ministry rather than a salvation ministry. (Such as Car Care)

I forget where I read it, but the PCA says that when you disagree with the WMC you have to state that, and something about being ordained an elder or deacon on a case by case base.

I just have this gut feeling that there is some standard that if I say I don't agree with Pre-destination, Then my elders and Pastor would be more Required to reject me... Does that make sense?

I would sincerely encourage you to take your concerns to your elders and to give them the opportunity to answer. There might be some things that you are misunderstanding or there might be some things that can be cleared up for you by them. The Westminster Confession of Faith is document of very strong theology and is not something that appeals to the common conceptions of men. It is founded upon sound, biblical doctrine, and written by godly, pious men who had the glory of God at the forefront of their minds. The very history and gravity of the document itself should encourage you to at least endeavor to fully understand their position.

I really understand what you're saying. But I really feel i'm just done with the Predestination Debate. I've been through both sides, I've prayed about it, I don't believe it, and I don't believe that it is important enough to consume more time and energy on, I so much rather be helping people.

Thanks

 

[HiredGoon]

From the PCA book of church order, chapter 24-5. On installation and ordination of a ruling elder or deacon this question is asked in the presence of the church:

"2. Do you sincerely receive and adopt the Confession of Faith and the Catechisms of this Church, as containing the system of doctrine taught in the Holy Scriptures; and do you further promise that if at any time you find yourself out of accord with any of the fundamentals of this system of doctrine, you will, on your own initiative, make known to your Session the change which has taken place in your views since the assumption of this ordination vow?"

Personally I don't think one should actively seek to be a ruling elder or deacon.

 

[Imblessed]

I'm not presbyterian, but from what i'm reading here, I think it would be wise to change churches if you really want to get into more of a leadership role in the church. There are plenty of good churches that don't teach predestination(by good, I mean that they have outreach programs, are growing, are "successful", etc--I don't think that any church that doesn't teach the Doctrines of Grace is going to be good by "my" standards). If you really are sure that you've looked into it carefully and are sure that you don't hold to it, you need to find another church. It also seems that you would enjoy a church that has a pastor that teaches on themes instead of straight from the bible.

You say you like the church, but you are saying also that you don't learn anything from the pastor, AND don't agree with the teachings they support. ?? Am I missing something? I'm not sure how you can like a church if you think it's not teaching the truth, and you think you aren't learning from the pastor. Sure you may like the people, but church is much more than the social aspect.

I think you should sit down with your pastor or elders and seriously go throught the issues you have with the confessions. It's possible that they maybe be able to clear up some of the confusion. You say you've already looked into it and studied it, but have you done it on your own, or with an experienced mature christian, elder, or pastor?

If you are set in your beliefs, which we all here hope not, because we truly believe that you would be going astray, then I think it's time to change churches.

My .02 cents worth.

 

[4jacks]

I'm not presbyterian, but from what i'm reading here, I think it would be wise to change churches if you really want to get into more of a leadership role in the church. There are plenty of good churches that don't teach predestination(by good, I mean that they have outreach programs, are growing, are "successful", etc--I don't think that any church that doesn't teach the Doctrines of Grace is going to be good by "my" standards). If you really are sure that you've looked into it carefully and are sure that you don't hold to it, you need to find another church. It also seems that you would enjoy a church that has a pastor that teaches on themes instead of straight from the bible.

A church that did not teach the doctrine of grace would not be good by my standards either. Worse yet is the PCA (from my experiences) does not teach anything about what they truly believe and yet in the background they have their beliefs hidden in a little yellow book, with a skewed version of the doctrine of grace. It is a shame that I attended a PCA church for 14 years as was never told exactly "This is what we believe" I believe that our salvation comes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. The PCA will say that over and over again, and I'll start to think, Okay i agree with this veiw point, but then they (in my experience) will get all confusing and what they really mean is that they believe our salvation comes by grace through grace in Jesus Christ.

You say you like the church, but you are saying also that you don't learn anything from the pastor, AND don't agree with the teachings they support. ?? Am I missing something? I'm not sure how you can like a church if you think it's not teaching the truth, and you think you aren't learning from the pastor. Sure you may like the people, but church is much more than the social aspect.

I know you are emphasizing "Teaching the Truth" and I know that is very important. And (in my experience) it seems like the main focus of calvinist view points. The TRUTH is that the west minster confessional is not 100% right, whether you will admit to it or not. The Truth is NO denominations veiw points are going to be 100% correct. The Bible is 100% the truth, but men, the church and everyone here now a days seems to have trouble interpruting the truth. As stated before I really appreciate the Teachings of Dr. Tony Evans, but the truth is I don't agree with 100% of his teachings (example being his veiwpoint on a believers baptism vs. infant baptism) But that doesn't mean that I should just not listen to any of his teachings, it just means I have to be careful and test his teachings to the bible. (the same as I should do w/ any teaching) The truth is My beliefs are not 100% correct, and I will never find a church that I agree with 100%. I am satisfied with the PCA and the Westminster to attend the service. I agree with the Majority of thier beliefs. I would also be satisfied if I could find a church like Tony Evans, Which i'm not certain which denomination he would fit into.

But going to Church every week is so much more than just being feed the truth. It is also a gathering of believers in worship of god. It is fellowship, these things are equally as important. And I enjoy the service at the PCA church I attend.

It's also unfair to say i don't learn ANYTHING from the pastor. It's just seems he never goes to deep into any paticular subject. He always skims the top of all his sermons, and it becomes same old same old, heard that before. That is why I supplement church service with outside teachings, I learn so much more, but I don't recieve the Fellowship there and I don't participate in worship in that way.

I think you should sit down with your pastor or elders and seriously go throught the issues you have with the confessions. It's possible that they maybe be able to clear up some of the confusion. You say you've already looked into it and studied it, but have you done it on your own, or with an experienced mature christian, elder, or pastor?

My present pastor has only been there about 4 years, and I haven't discussed these things with him. However, I have done so with the previous pastor and w/ an elder in the church whom I look up to.

If you are set in your beliefs, which we all here hope not, because we truly believe that you would be going astray, then I think it's time to change churches.

Going astray how? This seriously worries me. Do you think just becuase I don't view the WMC as the inerrant word of god, I'm doomed to hell for eternity? That is so much of a difference between you and I. Even though I don't agree with you on a few points, I would never say something like "You are going astray" I would say something more like "We disagree" or "You're Wrong about that Point" I think the denomination that I most disagree with would have to be the Catholics. And Yet I still believe that someone can hold to thier catholic doctrine and still have a fruitful relationship with Jesus. I would never say they are going astray. Unless they we're not proclaiming salvation through Jesus Christ. i.e. proclaiming salvation through baptism, or works, or one of thier weird incense rituals.

My .02 cents worth.

Thanks I appreciate it.

 

[Imblessed]

A church that did not teach the doctrine of grace would not be good by my standards either. Worse yet is the PCA (from my experiences) does not teach anything about what they truly believe and yet in the background they have their beliefs hidden in a little yellow book, with a skewed version of the doctrine of grace. It is a shame that I attended a PCA church for 14 years as was never told exactly "This is what we believe" I believe that our salvation comes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. The PCA will say that over and over again, and I'll start to think, Okay i agree with this veiw point, but then they (in my experience) will get all confusing and what they really mean is that they believe our salvation comes by grace through grace in Jesus Christ.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of churches like that. I attended my present church for a year and a half before i knew that 1)they belonged to the GBC 2)Willowcreek assciation 3)pastor was Calvinist 4)Purpose Driven church

I'm not sure i"m happy about the whole Rick Warren association, but it doesn't seem to be that bad really, as long as the church doesn't make it priority...

I know you are emphasizing "Teaching the Truth" and I know that is very important. And (in my experience) it seems like the main focus of calvinist view points. The TRUTH is that the west minster confessional is not 100% right, whether you will admit to it or not. The Truth is NO denominations veiw points are going to be 100% correct. The Bible is 100% the truth, but men, the church and everyone here now a days seems to have trouble interpruting the truth. As stated before I really appreciate the Teachings of Dr. Tony Evans, but the truth is I don't agree with 100% of his teachings (example being his veiwpoint on a believers baptism vs. infant baptism) But that doesn't mean that I should just not listen to any of his teachings, it just means I have to be careful and test his teachings to the bible. (the same as I should do w/ any teaching) The truth is My beliefs are not 100% correct, and I will never find a church that I agree with 100%. I am satisfied with the PCA and the Westminster to attend the service. I agree with the Majority of thier beliefs. I would also be satisfied if I could find a church like Tony Evans, Which i'm not certain which denomination he would fit into.

No, no, I agree. Totally. I guess I didn't get the feeling you were satisfied with the PCA anymore. I apologize.

But going to Church every week is so much more than just being feed the truth. It is also a gathering of believers in worship of god. It is fellowship, these things are equally as important. And I enjoy the service at the PCA church I attend.

I agree. It's just that one shouldn't place prime importance on "enjoyment"--of the social aspect, I mean.

It's also unfair to say i don't learn ANYTHING from the pastor. It's just seems he never goes to deep into any paticular subject. He always skims the top of all his sermons, and it becomes same old same old, heard that before. That is why I supplement church service with outside teachings, I learn so much more, but I don't recieve the Fellowship there and I don't participate in worship in that way.

I got the impression that you believed you weren't learning anything from your first post.

I know I would like to learn more from my pastor, but I understand that not everyone there is ready for more all the time--so I also supplement my learning outside.

Going astray how? This seriously worries me. Do you think just becuase I don't view the WMC as the inerrant word of god, I'm doomed to hell for eternity? That is so much of a difference between you and I. Even though I don't agree with you on a few points, I would never say something like "You are going astray" I would say something more like "We disagree" or "You're Wrong about that Point" I think the denomination that I most disagree with would have to be the Catholics. And Yet I still believe that someone can hold to thier catholic doctrine and still have a fruitful relationship with Jesus. I would never say they are going astray. Unless they we're not proclaiming salvation through Jesus Christ. i.e. proclaiming salvation through baptism, or works, or one of thier weird incense rituals.

Ok, I've been mis-understood here. I haven't even read the WMC, and our church doesn't use it to form doctrine, so obviously I dont' mean that! What I mean by astray, is that for us here on semper, we believe the Doctrines of Grace are as close to biblically correct as possible--so when you start rejecting any aspect of the Doctrines of Grace, we are going to believe you are heading in the wrong direction. I certainly don't mean astray as is non-christian or even heretical--so I apologize if that's what you thought I meant. I know lots of great christians who are not calvinists--my twin brother is one of them, and although I don't agree with all his theology, I would still say he's one of the best christians I know. That said, if he used to be calvinist and became arminian, or catholic, or lutheran or whatever else, I'd tell him he's going astray, simply because I feel that he'd be getting away from what I consider to be the closest truth of soteriology. See what I mean? I wouldn't consider him any less christian for it.....

Maybe I shouldn't have opened my big mouth--It seems as if I jumped to some conclusions about your problems and for that I apologize.

 

[4jacks]

What I mean by astray, is that for us here on semper, we believe the Doctrines of Grace are as close to biblically correct as possible

What exactly are the Doctrines of Grace, Can I obtain a copy of them? Or are you just reffering to abstract thoughts and Ideas?

Maybe I shouldn't have opened my big mouth--It seems as if I jumped to some conclusions about your problems and for that I apologize.

Nah you've been very helpful.


Although if there are any PCA Elders or Pastors out there, I'm still looking for the answer to the Question of whether or not I will be flat out rejected, or if it will be on a case by case base.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

What exactly are the Doctrines of Grace, Can I obtain a copy of them? Or are you just reffering to abstract thoughts and Ideas?

4jacks, don't be surprised to run into churches that lack in teaching the Doctrines of Grace or teach meat more than milk, even among PCA churches.

In today's climate of seeker friendly churches, and hypersensitivity among many attendees, milk is often the main course for some time.

Here is a site where you can learn more of the Doctrines of Grace and Biblical Calvinism;

www.monergism.com

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Although if there are any PCA Elders or Pastors out there, I'm still looking for the answer to the Question of whether or not I will be flat out rejected, or if it will be on a case by case base.

I think someone had already answered that from the PCA Book of Church Order, below in blue.


In answer to your question; "Can I still become an elder or a deacon If I completely disagree with the westminsters veiw of Predestination?"

I cannot say 100% what your Presbytery would do, but I doubt very seriously if a PCA Presbytery would ordain anyone who rejects a major doctrine of the church.

If I were you, I would bring this up to your elders and begin a dialogue. That is what they are there for.


"2. Do you sincerely receive and adopt the Confession of Faith and the Catechisms of this Church, as containing the system of doctrine taught in the Holy Scriptures; and do you further promise that if at any time you find yourself out of accord with any of the fundamentals of this system of doctrine, you will, on your own initiative, make known to your Session the change which has taken place in your views since the assumption of this ordination vow?"

The assumed answer at that point would be, "yes".

A "no" answer would prevent ordination.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

One thing that often amazes me about many Christians, is that they have no problem with God's determinism in creation, and often use terms like, "there are no accidents", "everything happens for a reason", or "God has a plan for your life", but then say God is impotent in carrying out His Plan in salvation.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Had Einstein been Christian, he would have been Calvinist.

One of his famous quotes is: "God does not play dice."

Meaning, nothing is left to chance, but is purposefully planned.

 

[4jacks]

One thing that often amazes me about many Christians, is that they have no problem with God's determinism in creation, and often use terms like, "there are no accidents", "everything happens for a reason", or "God has a plan for your life", but then say God is impotent in carrying out His Plan in salvation.

I honestly have no clue what you are talking about here, and I'm sorry but I don't want to debate it.... But you're statements do not summarize my beliefs at all, they are very far off.

I think someone had already answered that from the PCA Book of Church Order, below in blue.
"2. Do you sincerely receive and adopt the Confession of Faith and the Catechisms of this Church, as containing the system of doctrine taught in the Holy Scriptures; and do you further promise that if at any time you find yourself out of accord with any of the fundamentals of this system of doctrine, you will, on your own initiative, make known to your Session the change which has taken place in your views since the assumption of this ordination vow?"

The assumed answer at that point would be, "yes".

A "no" answer would prevent ordination.

This does not answer my question really, this is just the formality of ordaining an elder (not a deacon, i think) in front of the congregation. Before this ceremony (so to speak) The canadate has a chance to claim any issues he has with the WMC. If he disagrees w/ anything he is forbidden to teach it, but he can still be ordained.
So my question still remains.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I honestly have no clue what you are talking about here, and I'm sorry but I don't want to debate it.... But you're statements do not summarize my beliefs at all, they are very far off.

Isn't the doctrine of predestination the one you are having problems with?

In philosophical terms, predestination is called, "determinism".

Christians use the determinism argument in the creation vs. evolution debate, but shy away when it comes to salvation. In a nutshell.

This does not answer my question really, this is just the formality of ordaining an elder (not a deacon, i think) in front of the congregation. Before this ceremony (so to speak) The canadate has a chance to claim any issues he has with the WMC. If he disagrees w/ anything he is forbidden to teach it, but he can still be ordained.
So my question still remains.

If you were to be a candidate for deacon or elder, you would not be examined in your particular church as a formality.

You would be closely examined by pastors and elders in your Presbytery, and they ain't slouches.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

In short, I do not think that a PCA Presbytery would ordain you as a deacon, and for sure not an elder when you have issues with church doctrine, as stated.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I am a deacon in a PCA Church. You can have minor disagreements with the confession, but they have to be minor.

If you have major differences with the Westminster Confession, and you wish to play an active role in the leadership of your church you will need to do one of two things:
1) go to the elders and learn mopre of the confession and see if perhaps you have been wrong and can come to supscribe or 2) you will need to find another church.

The PCA, Rightly, doesn't require subscription to be a member of Christ Church, but to be an elder or deacon is a VERY different matter. To be an officer in the church you must agree with the WCF (exceping minoe differences that are alloed on examination.)

Hope that helps,
Kenith

Dude, Seriously, it rude statements like that, that just make me wanna find a new church.

I politely asked that we NOT get into some big debate, I just wanna know what the PCA stands on this issue. I've read somewhere that if you have a disagreance with the Westminster you have to declared if/when you are ordained.

I just want to know whether this is standard thing or not.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Dear 4jacks,

A non-Calvinist can not and should not be allowed to have a ruling position in a PCA Church. This is not a minor disagreement. It is major-- If you are not a Calvinist, then you are an Arminian. There are many Arminian Churches that can use bright young Christians in the Leadership of their Churches, BUT the PCA is not one of those Denominations.

Arminians can be members of PCA Churches, but they can not hold places of leadership and should not be allowed to do so. Most of my Christian friends are Arminians, I love them dearly, but I believe the doctrine is a serious misreading of the Word of God on this issue.

I advise you to give it serious study (I did for two full years) and if you still disagree with Calvinism, than you may want to look somewhere else. (I'm Sorry but that is as it is.)

Coram Deo,
Kenith