I desperately need valid proof of creationism.

SkyWriting

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If God wanted us to believe that the first eleven chapters of Genesis are an accurate account of historic events, why did He give them to us in the same genre of literature as epic tales, sagas, myths, and legends rather than in the historical narrative genre that the rest of Genesis (and the rest of the Hextateuch) are written in?

If God wanted us to know that the earth is spherical rather than flat, why did He use language that fits a flat earth rather than a spherical earth?

The scriptures were written by man in the language of man and the perspectives of man.
For virtually 100% of people, the earth is flat. That's why scripture doesn't mention
that mass warps space which we experience as gravity.

Eudn7aRWGseAvirtdCh38K.jpg
 
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SkyWriting

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How am I, as a Christian, supposed to keep my belief in biblical inerrancy when there are all of these rebuttals that seemingly debunk creationism?

You haven't responded, so you really have no issues at all.
 
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JacksBratt

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Placing the word educated in quotation marks maliciously and dishonestly implies that those persons whom God has blessed with an excellent education were not blessed at all. Unfortunately, this malicious and dishonest tactic is routinely employed in discussions and debates by people who have, at best, an exceptionally poor education and an extreme disregard for those people who actually know something. Furthermore, the issue is not merely one of style, but of genre as in kind and form—a very important issue in the interpretation of literature.
LOL, nice try. I have two diplomas for post secondary. My angst for academia is the simple fact that teachers, professors and other educators work with blank slates and have the power to indoctrinate the students with all kinds of nonsense. Today, it's evident with the widespread revolt, in the US, of the parents against the tripe that their students are being told to be truth and fact.

So, yep... I put "educated" in quotes due to the simple fact that students take it all to be "gospel" and don't question a thing.

There are many people blessed with intelligence that I would listen to more than those blessed with "education"... The two are not even close to being the same thing.




I suppose that is the reason why we have over 340 denominations of Baptist along with hundreds of other denominations who all understand the Bible differently.
There are all kinds of things wrong with the Christian denominations. Each one has errors. That is because "man" is in all of them. Christ didn't come here to create "religion" He came to have a relationship.

Every religion on the earth is flawed because they are man made.

Scholars and theologians can argue till the cows come home. However, taking the bible literally will never steer you wrong.


The Bible is a religious text, and there is no place for science in religion.

Ya, here that all the time. However, it does give profound windows of insight into scientific truth such as telling the Hebrews to go into the wilderness, dig a hole, and cover their feces... to stop problems with waste... that's just one example of many things God has told us that didn't make sense until man's "science" caught up to God's knowledge of His created universe.



Yes, the days in Genesis 1-2 are expressed as seven literal days, but literalness does not imply accuracy, and Genesis 1:6-8 is not an accurate account of creation. The Ante-Nicene Church Fathers believed that the earth was created in six literal days, and that on the second day “God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.”
Take a look up.. do you see a "dome". All will be revealed. I have no issue with my acceptance of God's description of the universe. It will be found to be the real true model.



I am not selfish enough to believe what I want to believe, but rather I believe the truth even though at times it is inconvenient to believe the truth. Moreover, I do not automatically dismiss what scholars have written just because they disagree with what I believe. Instead, I carefully and prayerfully read and consider what they have written—especially when they are men of profound faith in God and have invested their lives in the study of the word of God that they might help us to know God better and serve Him more effectively.
Well everyone has a method to their beliefs.
 
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JacksBratt

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Lights in the firmament would be universal and have no shadows. The world would have no shadows and no way to measure a day. A day being the light from one source causing a shadow as the world tuned.

And this only happens from the sun in the day and the moon at night...sometimes.
sorry, don't understand your concept here. All light will cast a shadow.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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I would suggest that you visit creationist websites and look at the argument from both sides. There is plenty of evidence for recent creation if you look.

Both sides? I have been researching and following young earth creationist organizations for more than 15 years. A major part of their ministry is to deceive the public into believing that scientists today are split over the issue of young earth creationism versus evolution, and that the theory of young earth creationism is scientifically viable. However, there own data shows that there are today more than 3,000,000 scientists worldwide who have earned one or more doctoral degrees in one or more field of science and who endorse the theory of evolution; conversely, there are fewer than 50 such scientists worldwide who endorse the theory of young earth creationism; and of these, no more than three are employed in any field of science. Most of the others are employed by young earth creationist organizations, and there job is to promote the theory of young earth creationism.

Moreover, professors of ancient Hebrew, the ancient Semitic languages, and the Biblical languages in accredited universities have not interpreted Genesis 1-11 to teach young earth creationism for well over one hundred years.

One of my pet favorite, creationist "proofs", is the lack of true transitional fossils in the fossil record.

Young earth creationists have been parroting this false claim for decades, and for decades biologists and geologists have been telling the public the truth—but some people refuse to listen.

You would expect that if things evolve through random mutations that you would see some pretty random creatures out there. But all of the creatures in the fossil record are fully functional, self-contained units.

What! In the fossil record, we would expect to see fossils from animals that were so well adapted to their environment, through the process of evolution, that they lived in great numbers—and that is what we find! The likelihood of finding a fossil from some one-of-a-kind-freak is infinitesimally small.
 
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SkyWriting

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What! In the fossil record, we would expect to see fossils from animals that were so well adapted to their environment, through the process of evolution, that they lived in great numbers—and that is what we find! The likelihood of finding a fossil from some one-of-a-kind-freak is infinitesimally small.

The theory of evolution includes no one-of-a-kind freaks. So no.
The theory hold for millions of small changes over vast lengths of time.
 
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roman2819

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Can all these happen happen on its own? Can earth, its ecology system, with so many varieties of fauna, and multitude of living creatures -- each uniquely beautiful and different -- developed beautifully on its own? Simply impossible without a deliberate designer God.
 
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East of Eden

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The theory of evolution includes no one-of-a-kind freaks. So no.
The theory hold for millions of small changes over vast lengths of time.

Your problem is there is no evidence for these millions of small changes, life appears in the fossil record abruptly.

Mutations are almost always harmful.
 
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SkyWriting

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Your problem is there is no evidence for these millions of small changes, life appears in the fossil record abruptly.

Mutations are almost always harmful.
Life which is drastically different from modern species, like mammals and such.
 
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DamianWarS

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Hello everyone,

I'm assuming that this is the correct subforum in which to post this topic, but if not, forgive me. Basically, I've grown up in a home that believes in 100% biblical inerrancy and that's what I've believed, but recently I've been having a lot of doubts about creationism in particular. There are a few articles and websites that I have read that seem to completely and almost convincingly refute the idea of creationism. I'll link them below.

Ken Ham's 10 facts that prove creationism - Debunked

Evidence against a recent creation - RationalWiki

An Index to Creationist Claims

Falsifiability of creationism - RationalWiki

How am I, as a Christian, supposed to keep my belief in biblical inerrancy when there are all of these rebuttals that seemingly debunk creationism? Why can't creationists come up with good rebuttals to evolutionists' claims and rebuttals? If the creation story and the fall of man aren't true then is there no original sin by Adam? If there wasn't then why did God even have to send Christ to die for us, or did He? Was there even divine intervention in the universe's creation or formation? Is my faith just weak? I don't mean to cause controversy, I just really need some answers. I'm so tired of doubting my whole life. If these can't be answered, I'm afraid I may start to slip away to agnosticism. So, if anyone has answers, please share them.

Thank you!
It's ok to be agnostic about the how of creation. Yes, there are some non negotiable like there is a God and he is the source of all things but it's say I dunno about the how of creation. I table the literal conversation because I think it's the most unimportant part of the account. I read the creation account as a salvation metaphor. I've written about it on another thread at length, check it out, it makes a lot of sense and I feel elevates scriptures but makes it no less inerrant. It's about context, and we need to ask ourselves what is the goal of the account? What truth is God communicating? That's where the inerrancy, so find those answers and you find the truth of the account.
 
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Hawkins

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How am I, as a Christian, supposed to keep my belief in biblical inerrancy when there are all of these rebuttals that seemingly debunk creationism?

They don't debunk any creationism at any rate. Creationism is just another "science" but accepts the possibility that God is true.

More often, humans don't know what they are talking about. They are talking trash and BS including many posts in this very thread.

Basically, humans have two approaches to getting to truths. Science is the discovery of rule sets governing a repeatable phenomenon. Science is only accurate when humans can make that phenomenon repeat, and repeat predictably. It is so because humans lack the ability to tell a future. If a theory can predict precisely without error on how a phenomenon repeats itself into the future, we can be assured that the theory holds a truth. It is on a "you predict the future precisely that's why you are holding a truth" basis. That's what science is and why it is accurate.

Humans however literally call everything a science simply because they can't tolerate that they don't know things. Thus they literally name everything science in order to have an explanation for something they possibly don't know what it is. The "science" in this case however will no longer retain its accuracy as a predictable and falsifiable scientific model. Both ToE and BBT are such a theory that possesses zero predictability and zero falsifiability. That is, we can't theory what would happen in the next big bang, or in the next cycle of evolution from a single cell to a fully grown, say human.

We don't have the ability to predict how this process repeats in an end-to-end manner, simply because we lack the ability to actually make it repeat. We can't make a big bang repeat itself to achieve that said predictability and falsifiability. Similarly, we can't make a full cycle evolution repeat itself, that is, from a single cell to a fully grown human as ToE implicitly or explicitly said so. Our "science" in this case doesn't retain any scientific accuracy. Actually, the term falsifiability means "we humans can't tell if the theory itself is actually in error". If we can't tell whether something is in error or not, it could only mean that we can't tell if it's true either. This is a forever situation, that is, as long as we can't make it repeat, it is forever and eternally in such a status that "we can't tell if it is true".

The second more fundamental way for humans to approach truths is by means of human testimony. A scientist as an eyewitness observed with equipment that black holes exist, then his testimony reaches us for us to get to this piece of fact. We rely on this process of human witnessing because it is out of our capacity for the 7 billion humans on earth to go through the same process of observing through equipment to get to such a truth. We have to rely on this middle man (a scientist acting as an eyewitness) to get to the truth.

This is the case even on a repeatable phenomenon (i.e., a current physical existence), not to mention a non-repeatable phenomenon (such as a history).

Now since creation, if true, is not a repeatable phenomenon, the more proper way for humans to reach such truth is by means of testimony. However, it can't be a human testimony as no human is there to eyewitness the process. The only testimony can only be from God who remains the only one there to witness.

It is thus a situation where "God knows better" (thus He crafted the testimony), while "humans know nothing" as they think that the truth can be approached by science while science can only be in an eternal status that "we can't tell if it is true".

The next question is why even the most intelligent humans made such a mistake? The answer is, that even the smartest humans are not as crafty as the snake in the garden tempting them to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. A tree the same day you choose to eat from it, the same day you shall surely die! God not only knows better but also prophesied this.

The snake, on the other hand, is to fulfill the human need of knowing everything by calling everything science in order to have an explanation. This is done out of our pride.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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They don't debunk any creationism at any rate. Creationism is just another "science" but accepts the possibility that God is true.
Creationism is not a science but a religion that believes in a literal and historical interpretation of Genesis 1-11 and the other passages in the Bible that are based upon those chapters.
More often, humans don't know what they are talking about. They are talking trash and BS including many posts in this very thread.
….including one human in particular.
 
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mindlight

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Hello everyone,

I'm assuming that this is the correct subforum in which to post this topic, but if not, forgive me. Basically, I've grown up in a home that believes in 100% biblical inerrancy and that's what I've believed, but recently I've been having a lot of doubts about creationism in particular. There are a few articles and websites that I have read that seem to completely and almost convincingly refute the idea of creationism. I'll link them below.

Nonreligious Questions

Evidence against a recent creation

An Index to Creationist Claims

Falsifiability of creationism

How am I, as a Christian, supposed to keep my belief in biblical inerrancy when there are all of these rebuttals that seemingly debunk creationism? Why can't creationists come up with good rebuttals to evolutionists' claims and rebuttals? If the creation story and the fall of man aren't true then is there no original sin by Adam? If there wasn't then why did God even have to send Christ to die for us, or did He? Was there even divine intervention in the universe's creation or formation? Is my faith just weak? I don't mean to cause controversy, I just really need some answers. I'm so tired of doubting my whole life. If these can't be answered, I'm afraid I may start to slip away to agnosticism. So, if anyone has answers, please share them.

Thank you!

How God created the world, like the existence of God Himself, is out of the scope of the scientific method. It can neither be proven nor disproven using science, it was not witnessed by anyone except God and no one has a comparable experience of the event with which they can relate it.

There are different theological interpretations based on the bible, tradition, or reason. These give you a lot of flexibility. If you are convinced that science can describe our origins and you go with the mainstream community of scientists you can be a Theistic Evolutionist. If you think science is not really qualified to make assertions about things it cannot demonstrate then you could be a creationist or you could simply say I do not know how but I know that he did it. Whatever solution to arrive at you are not compelled to justify yourself to those who do not know God.
 
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East of Eden

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It's ok to be agnostic about the how of creation. Yes, there are some non negotiable like there is a God and he is the source of all things but it's say I dunno about the how of creation. I table the literal conversation because I think it's the most unimportant part of the account. I read the creation account as a salvation metaphor. I've written about it on another thread at length, check it out, it makes a lot of sense and I feel elevates scriptures but makes it no less inerrant. It's about context, and we need to ask ourselves what is the goal of the account? What truth is God communicating? That's where the inerrancy, so find those answers and you find the truth of the account.

How can it be metaphor when Jesus believed in a literal Adam?

Interesting evolutionists reject creationism because it is not falsifiable, when that actually applies to their theory. Saying anything can happen in an infinite about of time and situations is not testable.
 
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East of Eden

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I would suggest that you visit creationist websites and look at the argument from both sides. There is plenty of evidence for recent creation if you look.

One of my pet favorite, creationist "proofs", is the lack of true transitional fossils in the fossil record. You would expect that if things evolve through random mutations that you would see some pretty random creatures out there. But all of the creatures in the fossil record are fully functional, self-contained units.

Which in itself negates evolutionary theory, as even Darwin admitted should be the case.
 
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East of Eden

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The way i look at creation and believe in it is, God can turn water into wine, bring someone back from the dead, heal the blind.

God is our creator. He spoke and everything came into being! Trust in God. Have faith.

True, and when He makes the new earth, it won't take Him billions of years to do it.
 
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DamianWarS

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How can it be metaphor when Jesus believed in a literal Adam?
regarding the creation account (Gen 1-2:3) 2 Cor 4:6 already affirms the metaphor which can be used as a heuristic to view the whole account but I don't think Paul needs to say it to know that light being spoken into darkness is a metaphor and this should be pretty easy to spot (I would be concerned if you didn't see it)

My thoughts were more directed at Gen 1-2:3 and not the latter bit of Gen 2 with the creation of Adam. But although not my point I can still address the logic you bring up. How Jesus (or Paul, etc...) addresses Adam doesn't demand Adam is literal it just demands the spiritual truth they pull out of it was part of the original intent which is just as true in the case of it being literal or non-literal. If a moral or principle is pulled out of an account the reference to the account does not establish the account as literal, it established the moral as the intent of the account (or at the very least contents it). in the case of Jesus or broadly the bible we don't need to question the authority and know what is pulled out is true and carries the original intent of the account, at least in part. But it alone doesn't establish or declare a literalness of the account which would still be context-dependent. Christ himself opens by saying in Mat 19 "Haven’t you read..." Christ evokes the authority of scripture and uses that to pull out the value of marriage which is still an abstract value. But he does not bring up the literalness of the account which is not his point at all, that part is left unchallenged in the text.

I'm addressing the logic of the case you present but it may surprise you to know I'm not really interested in challenging the literalness of the account and I think that is a wasted hermeneutic we spend too much time on with the creation account. My point is specifically with Gen 1-2:3 but also would apply to the remaining portion of Gen 2 (which speaks of Adam) and broadly pre-Abrahamic accounts. the "literalness" for or against really doesn't matter to me. But to reject the symbols present in the text in the name of it being literal seems silly not to mention is discrediting to God. Cannot God orchestrate both at the same time? I'm not sure what this allergy is to look at the metaphor, it very clearly is there and it is worth more attention than the literal conversation.

God speaks light into darkness. this is a metaphor that can be biblical affirmed in 2 Cor 4:6 and also is quite naturally a metaphor based on the wide use of light/dark symbolism in the bible and the odd arrangement of light before the sun. so why so hostile to this language?
 
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East of Eden

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regarding the creation account (Gen 1-2:3) 2 Cor 4:6 already affirms the metaphor which can be used as a heuristic to view the whole account but I don't think Paul needs to say it to know that light being spoken into darkness is a metaphor and this should be pretty easy to spot (I would be concerned if you didn't see it)

My thoughts were more directed at Gen 1-2:3 and not the latter bit of Gen 2 with the creation of Adam. But although not my point I can still address the logic you bring up. How Jesus (or Paul, etc...) addresses Adam doesn't demand Adam is literal it just demands the spiritual truth they pull out of it was part of the original intent which is just as true in the case of it being literal or non-literal. If a moral or principle is pulled out of an account the reference to the account does not establish the account as literal, it established the moral as the intent of the account (or at the very least contents it). in the case of Jesus or broadly the bible we don't need to question the authority and know what is pulled out is true and carries the original intent of the account, at least in part. But it alone doesn't establish or declare a literalness of the account which would still be context-dependent. Christ himself opens by saying in Mat 19 "Haven’t you read..." Christ evokes the authority of scripture and uses that to pull out the value of marriage which is still an abstract value. But he does not bring up the literalness of the account which is not his point at all, that part is left unchallenged in the text.

I'm addressing the logic of the case you present but it may surprise you to know I'm not really interested in challenging the literalness of the account and I think that is a wasted hermeneutic we spend too much time on with the creation account. My point is specifically with Gen 1-2:3 but also would apply to the remaining portion of Gen 2 (which speaks of Adam) and broadly pre-Abrahamic accounts. the "literalness" for or against really doesn't matter to me. But to reject the symbols present in the text in the name of it being literal seems silly not to mention is discrediting to God. Cannot God orchestrate both at the same time? I'm not sure what this allergy is to look at the metaphor, it very clearly is there and it is worth more attention than the literal conversation.

God speaks light into darkness. this is a metaphor that can be biblical affirmed in 2 Cor 4:6 and also is quite naturally a metaphor based on the wide use of light/dark symbolism in the bible and the odd arrangement of light before the sun. so why so hostile to this language?

There can certainly be more than one meaning, but I stand by my point that Jesus believed in a literal Adam, and a literal Noah for that matter. Christians are not above our Master. Why the hostility to the literal aspect?
 
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