I changed my stance on gun control!!!

[renniks]

I think that's the law in Australia. Gun and ammo have to be locked up in separate places. If a person somehow managed to get to both, load the gun and defend himself, a prosecutor would likely claim that such a feat is nearly impossible and say the defendant clearly violated the law by having a loaded gun in his home.
Be glad you don't live in Australia, even though Australian laws might come to live here someday.

Unbelievable.

 

[renniks]

Not if something else better was available. It has a terrible record of stopping power due to its very shallow penetration. There's even been reports of people being shot while wearing a leather jacket and some of the pellets are found inside the jacket. Birdshot would perform much worse. However, a person getting hit with a couple hundred birdshot pellets would be hurting pretty bad, even if not physically stopped in his tracks.

About thirty five years ago I tried to kill a fox squirrel with bird shot and it took three shots at close range... I'm not too impressed with bird shot.

 

[renniks]

Oh so wrong. At close range bird shot is still deadly.

What do you mean by bird shot? That covers quite a range. Duck shot and dove shot are going to have far different effects.

 

[Aldebaran]

The subsonics? Are you sure about that?

All bullets are "subsonic" and up. You might have meant "supersonics". Those are rounds that are traveling faster than the speed of sound.

I'm talking about one's like these in the link. I have them and they work in my .22: Buy Sub-Sonic HP for USD 12.99 | CCI

 

[Bradskii]

We live in a land where District Attorneys pretty much turn a blind eye to crime by turning criminals loose with little or no bail, thereby encouraging more criminal behavior.

I find that a lot in this forum. Someone will take an example or two of something that they think is applicable (yes, I've read the other thread) and exagerate and extrapolate it beyond any reasonable position it to try to support their argument. Ignoring plain, everyday, ordinary facts that are pretty much common knowledge and destroys any credibility the argument makes.

Does anyone really need to contrast your position that law officers in the US turn more criminals loose and that's a reason for greater criminality with the fact that the US has a greater incarceration rate than any other country on the planet. You've even got more prisoners than China.

So your position should be that you appear to have the greatest fear of being criminally assaulted despite the fact that you lock up people at 4x the rate of Australia. Something is seriously wrong in the land of the free (note the satire there).

 

[Aldebaran]

About thirty five years ago I tried to kill a fox squirrel with bird shot and it took three shots at close range... I'm not too impressed with bird shot.

Yeah, it loses energy over distance pretty fast. In defense, it's good for practice, but otherwise it's good for birds.

 

[Aldebaran]

I find that a lot in this forum. Someone will take an example or two of something that they think is applicable (yes, I've read the other thread) and exagerate and extrapolate it beyond any reasonable position it to try to support their argument. Ignoring plain, everyday, ordinary facts that are pretty much common knowledge and destroys any credibility the argument makes.

Does anyone really need to contrast your position that law officers in the US turn more criminals loose and that's a reason for greater criminality with the fact that the US has a greater incarceration rate than any other country on the planet. You've even got more prisoners than China.

So your position should be that you appear to have the greatest fear of being criminally assaulted despite the fact that you lock up people at 4x the rate of Australia. Something is seriously wrong in the land of the free (note the satire there).

They may have been the case until recently, but not anymore. Arsonists, people who shoot multiple people in a school, and even someone with a long history of felonies who just ran his girlfriend over with his SUV have been released back into the public.
In the L.A. area, it's getting rampant. Google the term, "explosion home robberies LA" and see the resulting stories that come up.

 

[Subduction Zone]

WOW! You never said anything that makes sense. And my arguments are legitimate.

No, your arguments all fail because I was not arguing what you claimed that I was.

If you do not understand something the correct thing to do is to ask questions for clarification.

Please try to avoid strawman arguments in the future.

 

[Bradskii]

They may have been the case until recently, but not anymore. Arsonists, people who shoot multiple people in a school, and even someone with a long history of felonies who just ran his girlfriend over with his SUV have been released back into the public.
In the L.A. area, it's getting rampant. Google the term, "explosion home robberies LA" and see the resulting stories that come up.

Good ol' California. Beating everyone easily.



And burglaries went up this year compared to last in L.A. But that's the only stat you bothered to check.

'The number of burglaries in Los Angeles hit its lowest level in at least a decade last year, as the protracted COVID-19 shutdown kept people at home.
There were a total of 13,496 reports of home invasions, or breaking into an office or store, in 2020. That’s about 1% less than a year earlier. It’s also the lowest annual number recorded since the Los Angeles Police Department began making its data public in 2010.'

Yet again, you use one piece of information and extroplate it to fit whatever narrative you want to spin. But it takes a few seconds to find out the truth of the matter. Why don't you take that time and check? It'll save me doing it.

 

[Aldebaran]

Good ol' California. Beating everyone easily.

View attachment 309534

And burglaries went up this year compared to last in L.A. But that's the only stat you bothered to check.

'The number of burglaries in Los Angeles hit its lowest level in at least a decade last year, as the protracted COVID-19 shutdown kept people at home.
There were a total of 13,496 reports of home invasions, or breaking into an office or store, in 2020. That’s about 1% less than a year earlier. It’s also the lowest annual number recorded since the Los Angeles Police Department began making its data public in 2010.'

Yet again, you use one piece of information and extroplate it to fit whatever narrative you want to spin. But it takes a few seconds to find out the truth of the matter. Why don't you take that time and check? It'll save me doing it.

For whatever reason, you're looking at the time period between 2010 and 2020. The year is now 2021. How about focusing on the present? Amid pandemic, California murder rate shows shocking rise - Capitol Weekly

 

[Bradskii]

For whatever reason, you're looking at the time period between 2010 and 2020. The year is now 2021. How about focusing on the present? Amid pandemic, California murder rate shows shocking rise - Capitol Weekly

I'm looking from 2010 because that's the year that police records were made available. So if someone wanted to know if burglaries were increasing or decreasing over time then they'd look at all the data. If someone wanted to fallaciously imply that the trend was getting worse then they'd only bother quoting last year versus the year before.

And from your link: 'Gun violence accounted for 90 percent of the year-over-year increase in homicide death from 2019 to 2020.'

And from the San Fran Chronicle: 'In 2020, 1.26 million guns were purchased in the state, a 56% increase from the previous year, and the most since at least 2000. Sales data through May show gun purchases in California remain well above pre-pandemic levels. Research suggests this increased circulation of firearms could foreshadow more gun violence.' Gun sales have skyrocketed in California

Well, they got that right. Is that enough 'focussing on the present' for you?

 

[Aldebaran]

I'm looking from 2010 because that's the year that police records were made available. So if someone wanted to know if burglaries were increasing or decreasing over time then they'd look at all the data. If someone wanted to fallaciously imply that the trend was getting worse then they'd only bother quoting last year versus the year before.

And from your link: 'Gun violence accounted for 90 percent of the year-over-year increase in homicide death from 2019 to 2020.'

And from the San Fran Chronicle: 'In 2020, 1.26 million guns were purchased in the state, a 56% increase from the previous year, and the most since at least 2000. Sales data through May show gun purchases in California remain well above pre-pandemic levels. Research suggests this increased circulation of firearms could foreshadow more gun violence.' Gun sales have skyrocketed in California

Well, they got that right. Is that enough 'focussing on the present' for you?

Nope! You still ignore what's happening in 2021.

 

[Bradskii]

Nope! You still ignore what's happening in 2021.

Nope what? The trend over the last few years is down. Here's a graph for you:

Check out the all time high for property crimes in 1980. Now tell me if things have been getting better or getting worse since then. You'll notice that there were six short periods where the graph rose slightly. Your position is to take one small period, note that the graph is rising and then run around saying that the sky is falling. Which is abject nonsense. The trend is down.

Now look at violent crime. That has only reduced very gradually over the last eight years noted and shows a slight increase since 2014. And homicides - obviously a violent crime, has turned that graph most definitely upwards in the last two years. And as noted, 90% of the homicides were gun related. Ninety percent!

And the Californians incarcerate more people than most countries. What on earth are you guys doing wrong? And do you know what perplexes me? In every single thread on guns in this and all other forums on which I have posted, you can point out the most obvious and indisputable facts and figures and not one gun proponent will ever, and I mean ever admit that there is a problem - let alone offer any solutions.

That you can innocently discuss that you and your wife actually practice what to do in the case of armed men invading your home appears to everyone reading it that is not American as absolute madness. Truly. Utterly incomprehensible. Home of the brave and land of the free? Do you think that represents some kind of freedom that you are in your bedroom rehearsing a gun battle in your home?

 

[renniks]

That you can innocently discuss that you and your wife actually practice what to do in the case of armed men invading your home appears to everyone reading it that is not American as absolute madness. Truly. Utterly incomprehensible. Home of the brave and land of the free? Do you think that represents some kind of freedom that you are in your bedroom rehearsing a gun battle in your home?

Are you claiming this cannot happen in other countries?
Why would a person not want to be prepared for any situation that could happen? I really find your attitude puzzling.
Do you not have insurance on your possessions? Why? Chances are you don't need to. But you want to prepared just in case.

 

[Aldebaran]

I find that a lot in this forum. Someone will take an example or two of something that they think is applicable (yes, I've read the other thread) and exagerate and extrapolate it beyond any reasonable position it to try to support their argument. Ignoring plain, everyday, ordinary facts that are pretty much common knowledge and destroys any credibility the argument makes.

Does anyone really need to contrast your position that law officers in the US turn more criminals loose and that's a reason for greater criminality with the fact that the US has a greater incarceration rate than any other country on the planet. You've even got more prisoners than China.

So your position should be that you appear to have the greatest fear of being criminally assaulted despite the fact that you lock up people at 4x the rate of Australia. Something is seriously wrong in the land of the free (note the satire there).

Since you've expressed such disbelief in the simple home defense plan I've laid out for you, I'll let you read it from another source in their own words:

"The best overall response to a home invasion is to assume a defensive posture, turning one area (most likely the main bedroom) into a well-defended firebase. Gather up the family, obtain a suitable weapon, barricade the door if practical and verbally challenge the intruder to leave as you call the police on your cell phone. In most cases the bad guy will flee upon hearing your voice, but if not, you’re ready for trouble."
Burglary 101: Home Defense

 

[Aldebaran]

Nope what? The trend over the last few years is down. Here's a graph for you:

View attachment 309540

Check out the all time high for property crimes in 1980. Now tell me if things have been getting better or getting worse since then. You'll notice that there were six short periods where the graph rose slightly. Your position is to take one small period, note that the graph is rising and then run around saying that the sky is falling. Which is abject nonsense. The trend is down.

Now look at violent crime. That has only reduced very gradually over the last eight years noted and shows a slight increase since 2014. And homicides - obviously a violent crime, has turned that graph most definitely upwards in the last two years. And as noted, 90% of the homicides were gun related. Ninety percent!

And the Californians incarcerate more people than most countries. What on earth are you guys doing wrong? And do you know what perplexes me? In every single thread on guns in this and all other forums on which I have posted, you can point out the most obvious and indisputable facts and figures and not one gun proponent will ever, and I mean ever admit that there is a problem - let alone offer any solutions.

That you can innocently discuss that you and your wife actually practice what to do in the case of armed men invading your home appears to everyone reading it that is not American as absolute madness. Truly. Utterly incomprehensible. Home of the brave and land of the free? Do you think that represents some kind of freedom that you are in your bedroom rehearsing a gun battle in your home?

What I showed you is about what is happening here and now, this year, 2021. Your 3 paragraphs don't address that. They go on about everything else, but not about what we're discussing.

 

[Bradskii]

Are you claiming this cannot happen in other countries?
Why would a person not want to be prepared for any situation that could happen? I really find your attitude puzzling.
Do you not have insurance on your possessions? Why? Chances are you don't need to. But you want to prepared just in case.

That you simply don't understand the complete bemusement of anyone living outside the US is, I think, part of the problem. You just can't stand back and see the madness of the situation. And sure I've got insurance. Which is in case someone can actually get into my house when I'm not there and ignore the alarm and get away with my property. That's what being prepared is in Australia. Locking doors and turning on alarms and making sure your insurance is paid up. Not working out how to get to a loaded weapon asap and working out cover and lines of fire and wondering whether to shoot first and ask questions later.

That is simply not what one does in any civilised western democracy. Except yours.

 

[Bradskii]

Since you've expressed such disbelief in the simple home defense plan I've laid out for you, I'll let you read it from another source in their own words:

"The best overall response to a home invasion is to assume a defensive posture, turning one area (most likely the main bedroom) into a well-defended firebase. Gather up the family, obtain a suitable weapon, barricade the door if practical and verbally challenge the intruder to leave as you call the police on your cell phone. In most cases the bad guy will flee upon hearing your voice, but if not, you’re ready for trouble."
Burglary 101: Home Defense

Show that paragraph to anyone at all and ask them which country it applies to. Without fail they will say the US. I didn't get past the first sentence with my wife and she said 'America of course'.

You don't even realise how bad that makes the US look.

 

[Aldebaran]

That you simply don't understand the complete bemusement of anyone living outside the US is, I think, part of the problem. You just can't stand back and see the madness of the situation. And sure I've got insurance. Which is in case someone can actually get into my house when I'm not there and ignore the alarm and get away with my property. That's what being prepared is in Australia. Locking doors and turning on alarms and making sure your insurance is paid up. Not working out how to get to a loaded weapon asap and working out cover and lines of fire and wondering whether to shoot first and ask questions later.

That is simply not what one does in any civilised western democracy. Except yours.

You make it sound like the worst thing anyone might ever do is steal some of your things. Has assault, rape, murder, and other such things been eradicated in Austrailia?

 

[Aldebaran]

Show that paragraph to anyone at all and ask them which country it applies to. Without fail they will say the US. I didn't get past the first sentence with my wife and she said 'America of course'.

You don't even realise how bad that makes the US look.

I'm not interested in how it looks. I'm more interested in being prepared.